Why can't people see there are worse fates for a horse?

Yes, there are fates worse than death. No just for horses or any animal but people too. For me I can think of a couple fates worse than death in human terms. They scare me more than death.

Terri
 
Black_Horse_White said:
I agree with people's choices to PTS a horse whatever the reason, what I disagree with the the phrase "fates worse than death" well really there is NO fate worse than death..
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Why can't you see that there are fates worse than death?

Can you, hand on heart wish a horse was -
Put through the sales many times in as many months so not having a clue where it is or who will be handling it some how or other -

Be neglected in any way whether that be lack of proper care, feed, shelter or handling -

Not be treated for any illness (whether mental or physical) or lameness so that it spends its life in pain and misery?

How on earth, as a self acknowledged horse lover, can you ever say those situations are better than a quick, safe, sure death so that all pain and neglect issues can be wiped away for them? If you say any life is better than a death in those and similar circumstances then hang your head in shame, you are no horse lover at all.
 
My opinion on pts versus rehoming is the individuals value. An old or permanently unsound horse that only has value as meat is better pts than sent into the unknown. Whereas if you have a green horse that's only worth say £100 above meat value because of its potential, its likely to have a purpose in a future home beyond an abbatoir.
When I bought my daughters pony as a yearling I bought her purely from sympathy, to save her from a fate worse than pts. Her location & tiny weight meant prior to me, even low end dealers wouldn't take her. I imagine because even as meat, unless taken in a job lot, she wasn't worth the hassle of taking to a sale. So the owner left her to rot in a tiny mud patch on her own. And I never found out the reason her own dam died 3mnths after giving birth. Doubt it was natural causes though. I bought her knowing if she had anything costly wrong, I couldn't afford it. To an extent I bought her because I would have preferred to have the hunt out than leave her where she was. The 18mnths or so her & her dam had been with the past owner, nobody else had come forward. And I couldn't have just left her in the hope someone with the money to treat her would step in. As it was, although she was riddled with rainscald, lice, thrush, wounds, underweight & with a lot of mental issues, it was tlc not money that she needed. Once I knew I could afford to sort her, she was intended to go to my friend as a companion, but my daughter fell in love. It's strange now to think what is a rather fab pony, I originally bought to probably take to the hunt. However if it had turned out that way, it would have been kinder to leaving her where she was. I couldn't justify leaving her to suffer. Pts I could justify.
 
The Old Brown Horse.
The old brown horse looks over the fence
In a weary sort of way.
He seems to be saying to all who pass:
“Well, folks, I've had my day-
I'm simply watching the world go by,
And nobody seems to mind,
As they're dashing past in their motor-cars,
A horse who is lame and half-blind.”

The old brown horse has a shaggy coat,
But once he was young and trim,
And he used to trot through the woods and lanes
With the man who was fond of him.
But his master rides in a motor-car,
And it makes him feel quite sad
When he thinks of the days that used to be,
And of all the times they had.

Sometimes a friendly soul will stop
Near the fence, where the tired old head
Rests wearily on the topmost bar,
And a friendly word is said.
Then the old brown horse gives a little sigh
As he feels the kindly touch
Of a hand on his mane or his shaggy coat,
And he doesn't mind so much.

So if you pass by the field one day,
Just stop for a word or two
With the old brown horse who was once as young
And as full of life as you.
He'll love the touch of your soft young hand,
And I know he'll seem to say
“Oh, thank you, friend, for the kindly thought
For a horse who has had his day.”

By W. F. Holmes
 
I'm sorry if I've caused offence, I just don't like the phrase. No I wouldn't want to see any animal suffering, that is why I've had my last horse PTS and been called a "murderer" for my actions. I just see death as final. And i won't hold my head in shame for what I've said and I am most certainly an animal lover.
 
jools1234 said:
putting a horse to sleep is not the equal to abandoning a dog, puting a horse to sleep is the equal to putting a dog to sleep surely? and for both it safeguards them against neglect and cruelty
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I was referring to the morals of the person making the choice. I was also referring to healthy horses in their mid teens that are no longer competing at the level they once were. When I see an amateur rider making the choice of choosing to end the life of a healthy animal so they can save money and win some rosettes on a replacement, then yes, I do think their morality has to come into question. Pro riders and the horse racing industry are of course constantly condemned for the same thing.

This is a far different choice from ending the life of an animal suffering from a serious condition. This is not even to mention that the horse that has developed spavins after serving you all your life might not have done so if you hadn't jumped, dressaged or ridden on hard ground so much.

jools1234 said:
its not for me to judge why someone chooses to pts any animal.
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I see no reason why I should not judge individuals that I know on a personal basis by their own choices which reflect their own moral views. In fact, I can hardly think of a better way to judge people than their own actions.

I'm actually really uncomfortable with the eagerness with which some people discuss killing their animals. Its almost as if the power trip goes to their heads, and they view themselves as some omniprescent benefactor with the benevelent power of life and death. (I'm not entirely convinced in a few individuals its not a manifestation of Munchausens by Proxy). When in reality, unless the animal is sick, very elderly or infirm, its just to save money.
 
I think that some people mistake a horse's fear of being killed for a fear of being dead.

Horses react with fear to threatening situations but that doesn't mean that they are standing in the field worrying about one of those situations arising, like humans worry about the future.

And I simply can't believe that a creature who can't even recognise itself in a mirror can possible have any concept of actually being dead, never mind fear it like a human can.
 
I think someone said it earlier - because they can't bring themselves to do what is best for the animal, be that horse, dog, cat you name it. They aren't giving an old, arthritic horse the summer, they are giving themselves the summer :mad: British summers are hardly always idyllic anyway, rain, mud, slippery surfaces, too much grass, rock hard ground, plagued with flies - yep, that sounds great for old bones, not.

I am firmly in the pts camp.
I am also firmly in the 'their horse, their business' camp.

The horse doesn't know that tomorrow is his last day, all he knows is "Hello stranger" and "Woooooooo :) oats, yum y......"
 
Go back to the post a few days ago where lady was exhausted, and wondering what to do with her horses.

Was suggested an old one was PTS; oh dear, there were suggestions that the owner should run herself more ragged, and probably make herself more ill before putting the horse down, as this was the only kindest thing to do by the horse.

Sometimes needs must.
 
Enfys said:
I think someone said it earlier - because they can't bring themselves to do what is best for the animal, be that horse, dog, cat you name it. They aren't giving an old, arthritic horse the summer, they are giving themselves the summer :mad: British summers are hardly always idyllic anyway, rain, mud, slippery surfaces, too much grass, rock hard ground, plagued with flies - yep, that sounds great for old bones, not.

I am firmly in the pts camp.
I am also firmly in the 'their horse, their business' camp.

The horse doesn't know that tomorrow is his last day, all he knows is "Hello stranger" and "Woooooooo :) oats, yum y......"
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With you all the way on this one. SusieT on this forum still stands by her opinion that I should not have had my semi-paralysed, but otherwise totally healthy horse, shot. I can't think of anything much more cruel that to have kept him isolated for the rest of his natural life so that I could avoid my pain.
 
wench said:
Go back to the post a few days ago where lady was exhausted, and wondering what to do with her horses.

Was suggested an old one was PTS; oh dear, there were suggestions that the owner should run herself more ragged, and probably make herself more ill before putting the horse down, as this was the only kindest thing to do by the horse.

Sometimes needs must.
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The horse was only 18 I believe. That is not an "old" horse.

I wasn't thinking of her anyway but of people I know who compete at amateur level.

Of course, if someone in the racing industry had been thinking of ending the life of a reasonably healthy former racing star, suffering normal conditions commensurate with age, to save money, they would have been horribly criticised on here.

Double standards. And very convenient ones.
 
I have been having this debate with my unhorsey OH recently. He started off thinking he had married a murderer but has now begun to understand my reasoning, he's not over enamoured with it but accepts it would be done in the horses best interest. I have just bought myself a smaller horse and have a 15.3, 14 yr old TB whose future I need to consider. I have been fortunate in finding him a companion, light hack home with a friend, less than a mile from my home but would have no hesitiation in PTS if needed. He has no particular talent, is not in the prime of his life and certainly not suitable as a novice owner, first time horse. As he has no real value he would only attract ejits, anyone with any ability would want a younger model with more potential. I cant ask huge money for him and wouldnt sell him for peanuts so if I cant afford his care and my friend is unable to keep him he would be PTS. I know he has had 9 good years in racing and 5 good years being spoilt with me, my friend treats her horses in much the same way as I do so I have no worries whilst he is there. Rather a quick dignified exit than a potential further 14 or so years of being passed around, possibly mistreated or mishandled when people discover hes not quite as easy as he appears. I know he might be one of the lucky ones but he might not, and that is why I personally would rather make his future secure.
 
Maesfen said:
Why can't you see that there are fates worse than death?
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My take on that comment was that there's always hope, while the horse is still alive, that things will come good eventually. But sadly, I don't think horses comprehend "hope" which is a very human concept. And there's a far greater chance of a horse ending up caught in a cycle of prolonged misery than there is for a human (in the civilised world at least).

I don't think anyone can argue that putting to sleep an older horse with slowly deteriorating health is the right thing to do if ongoing quality care can't be guaranteed. But there are sometimes cases on here that seem a little close to the line for me. Posts such as "no one else can ride or handle my horse so if I couldn't keep him I'd pts". Yes, some horses are quirky but that doesn't mean that they can't find good homes.

But where do we draw the line between quirky and downright dangerous???!!
 
It sounds like the owner did what she could to secure the horse a good future - i can't imagine she made the decision lightly.I don't have a problem with that, all those who criticise her should really consider what they would do in her situation.

I do however have a problem with PTS when the horse has just become an inconvenience.

I would love to keep my horses until they reach a natural end but I cant judge someone whose circumstances mean they have to look to how best to secure their horse a life free of pain or want. Good for you OP for supporting the owner to others
 
Mithras said:
The horse was only 18 I believe. That is not an "old" horse.

I wasn't thinking of her anyway but of people I know who compete at amateur level.

Of course, if someone in the racing industry had been thinking of ending the life of a reasonably healthy former racing star, suffering normal conditions commensurate with age, to save money, they would have been horribly criticised on here.

Double standards. And very convenient ones.
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I kind of agree with you but from a totally different perspective. I think all reasons are fine. I think if someone pays their £10K for an 8 year old superstar only to decide that the colour is wrong so they'll put it down is fine. Crazy, from a financial POV, but fine from a horse welfare POV. No different to ending the life of any other young, healthy animal as happens all the time to farm animals.

I did wonder if my total OKness with pts horses was just part of general insensitivity, but I get very upset and angry over horses made to work when not right, horses not getting freedom or plenty or forage, etc. I can't stand watching horses suffer, so it isn't total lack of feeling, just that I really don't think there's anything wrong with humanely destroying animals.
 
Mithras said:
I'm actually really uncomfortable with the eagerness with which some people discuss killing their animals. Its almost as if the power trip goes to their heads, and they view themselves as some omniprescent benefactor with the benevelent power of life and death.
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I've noticed this too. When I started a thread recently asking about peoples experiences of putting their horses to sleep it really surprised me that many of the most vocal advocates of putting horses to sleep had hardly ever, if at all, had to make that choice for their own horses. I've made the decision to put many horses to sleep throughout the years, mainly because their health has failed either due to old age or them coming down sick. There are many veterinary procedures I will not put any of my horses through and those horses who clearly will succumb unless certain surgical procedures are implemented are PTS.

I have never had any difficulty with making the decision to end the life of the horses I have. I sometimes struggle to understand the philosophy of many when they say it's the hardest thing you'll ever have to do for your horse. I'm a very pragmatic person though so maybe that's why I've always found making the decision easy. I may be in the minority on this forum as I most definitely do value life and some of the reasons people give for why they would have certain horses PTS do not sit easy with me at all. In many instances there is just no way I would have the horse killed but perhaps that in part is due to knowing my capabilities and if there's a glimmer of hope that the horse could end up being a useful animal then I'm prepared to put the time in to seeing that through. If it's an old horse who may be deemed useless to many but is still painfree then I do give them their retirement. That said, I own a large farm so space isn't an issue. I've also been round the block a number of times so I have a good idea of what I feel is worth persevering with and what isn't.
 
Flame_ said:
I kind of agree with you but from a totally different perspective. I think all reasons are fine. I think if someone pays their £10K for an 8 year old superstar only to decide that the colour is wrong so they'll put it down is fine. Crazy, from a financial POV, but fine from a horse welfare POV. No different to ending the life of any other young, healthy animal as happens all the time to farm animals.

I did wonder if my total OKness with pts horses was just part of general insensitivity, but I get very upset and angry over horses made to work when not right, horses not getting freedom or plenty or forage, etc. I can't stand watching horses suffer, so it isn't total lack of feeling, just that I really don't think there's anything wrong with humanely destroying animals.
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Totally agree with you here Flame
 
OP, I totally agree with you, but also understand what a hard decision it must be to make. I do agree with Maesfen and sometimes we have to get a grip on ourselves. I love both of mine more than I can say, and I would like to think that if I was not in a postiion to care for them, and nobody would have them and the meat man was the only option, then I would consider PTS.
 
This is a very personal choice, my boy is 15 and has a tear in a deep digital tendon which we are trying to get right, now the time may come where the vet will say to me its not getting any better and you are going to have to stop riding him, I pay 35 pw for a stable and grazing and use of facilities and he is very happy there. So would i accept not riding my own horse for as long as he is comfortable, but then this asks the question how do i know with a tear in a tendon that he will ever be comfortable and pain free, or would i move him somewhere cheaper where he could live out his days having taken the assumption that he is pain free, is it fair to move a horse that is happy and relaxed in his home or is it kinder to him to end his life quickly grazing under a tree in his home, the pain of that would be mine. I heard of a horse the other day being rehomed at 29, to my mind that is more cruel than PTS.
 
To the person who said its a good thing we can't pts people, every time I visit my Nan at her care home she tells me she doesn't want to live anymore. She's not crazy, or lost her marbles in the slightest however she is a very proud woman who has lost control of her body. Breaks my heart to see her as she is now. She was once a very well respected horse woman who trained, and trained with the very best in this country back in her day. Now she can't even do the most basic of tasks by herself.

Though I don't like to put human emotions on animals I do belive horses have pride and have on more than one occasion seen a horse that has been kept alive for the owners sake when really it would be better pts.

I've never had to make the decision for a horse and i pray i won't have to for a long time yet although i have done for a dearly beloved old dog of ours.
 
I find it odd that we seem to feel 'we're doing the right thing' by animals, by putting them out of their misery. How we feel like we're giving them one last gift...or something.

But we can't do it to people, even if, like Charem said, they are TELLING us they want to die.

I'm not saying we shouldn't PTS, of course we should if the situation calls for it, but it seems weird to say "I'll my animal PTS when it gets old" but would think you evil if you said "I hope my Nan passes soon, she's really suffering"
 
My 6 year old mare is currently in a box on my table....

she was pts 2 weeks ago due to her problems we couldnt fix

so yes OP i fully agree.......i could have easily sold my mare she was a cracker...but only way to secure her future is in a box next to me.... and that wasnt the cheap option - that was £650...! could have sold her for twice that if i was a heartless cow.
 
Nah said:
I find it odd that we seem to feel 'we're doing the right thing' by animals, by putting them out of their misery. How we feel like we're giving them one last gift...or something.

But we can't do it to people, even if, like Charem said, they are TELLING us they want to die.

I'm not saying we shouldn't PTS, of course we should if the situation calls for it, but it seems weird to say "I'll my animal PTS when it gets old" but would think you evil if you said "I hope my Nan passes soon, she's really suffering"
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We can't compare it to people - it's too different. Horses are very much animals of instinct and it's these instincts which make them happy if they feel safe and sad if they don't. Being unhealthy in some way makes them feel unsafe and that makes them unhappy. With my old boy, I saw the herd dynamics change around him as he went from being the dominant one to right down the bottom as he started to "feel" his old injury again. I could have isolated him so he wasn't bottom of any pecking order but then he'd have felt unsafe again (he hated being alone). And he'd still be lame.
And although some horses will let you know they're in pain, many won't so even when we see someone with a horse who's lame and they say "but he's ok in his field just eating grass" we don't know whether he actually still is in pain. In my mind lameness=pain. My horse was still lame even with lots of painkillers therefore was still in pain.
 
s4sugar said:
No problem with a horse going for meat -going through sales and being passed from pillar to post before going for meat is a different issue.

The horse doesn't care what happens to it's cadaver.

I agree in the OPs case. PTS rather than an uncertain future or someone getting injured.
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really?...going for meat often means travel to Europe in dire conditions to unsuitable slaughter houses...that is a fate no horse deserves. Get it PTS by the local hunt, vet or take it to the slaughterman yourself that is the only guarentee of its fate.
 
im another whos had to PTS an apparantly healthy young horse and everyone one on my yard was up in arms about it! i had terrible abuse and people were threatening to leave left right and centre. i stand by what i did even tho its hurts i know where my boy is and hes safe and i would do that everytime rather than pass on a horse that had no future
 
AshTay said:
We can't compare it to people - it's too different.
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How is it? My dog went through a very traumatic stroke, but with treatment, she's right as rain again. We could have put her down, but we felt she could keep going and she did.
My Grandpa had 3 nasty strokes and he was literally begging us not to let it happen again, the doctors all tried their best, but in the end, he had several more and died.
I just don't understand why we can't do what a human being is actually TELLING us, but we can guess what an animal is feeling and maybe put them down 2 years early, like I could have done with my dog, or accidentally keep them going too long.
 
There are so many unwanted horses in the UK. Some of them will die either through neglect, or for meat, or PTS for humane reasons. So I don't much mind if someone views a horse as a disposable commodity, though its sad and its not how I view horses myself. But since so many are going to die anyway, does it really matter which ones? The horse PTS as a disposable commodity now its too old to compete etc, leaves space for another to live in that environment where the owner will care for it.

IME nobody will PTS simply for the sake of it, even the most uncaring person, because it costs. Who would reasonably choose to spend a few hundred pounds PTS when there is a viable free option available, eg loaning or giving away? IMO when someone chooses PTS it is because they *do* care and because the other options only *seem* viable (in a particular case) to ignorant eyes.

I'm not saying selling, gifting, retiring or loaning are never viable options, but in some cases they are not, unless the owner is prepared to see a likely compromise in the horses standard of care/quality if life. Whether to PTS is a very personal decision based on a caring owners opinions on acceptable horse care, quality of life and sometimes the potential safety of other humans too.

I agree with you OP, some people in this life need to lose the rose-tinted specs. To disagree on whether to PTS, due to a difference of opinion on eg horse care, is one thing. But to hold onto the idea that all will be well because the horse, whilst alive, has "a chance" is misguided.
 
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