Why can't people see there are worse fates for a horse?

[cptrayes]

We can't compare it to people - it's too different..

How is it? My dog went through a very traumatic stroke, but with treatment, she's right as rain again. We could have put her down, but we felt she could keep going and she did.
My Grandpa had 3 nasty strokes and he was literally begging us not to let it happen again, the doctors all tried their best, but in the end, he had several more and died.

Because your Grandpa could imagine what the rest of his life held for him, and your dog could not. The only person who would have "missed" those extra years of your dog's life is you.

Meanwhile, if you had actually had your dog put to sleep you could have rescued one from an RSPCA dog home that would otherwise be put down, so another dog would live the years that your dog lost. That would have been a huge difference for you, but not for the dog world.

And the same is true of anyone who puts a horse down and replaces it with another, and as long as there is overbreeding of riding horses, that will be the case.

 

[Clava]

To the person who said its a good thing we can't pts people, every time I visit my Nan at her care home she tells me she doesn't want to live anymore. She's not crazy, or lost her marbles in the slightest however she is a very proud woman who has lost control of her body. Breaks my heart to see her as she is now. She was once a very well respected horse woman who trained, and trained with the very best in this country back in her day. Now she can't even do the most basic of tasks by herself.

Though I don't like to put human emotions on animals I do belive horses have pride and have on more than one occasion seen a horse that has been kept alive for the owners sake when really it would be better pts.

I've never had to make the decision for a horse and i pray i won't have to for a long time yet although i have done for a dearly beloved old dog of ours.

My brother was lucky and brave enough to be able to help himself and went to Dignitas. It is tragic people are left to suffer when we hopefully treat our animals better and end suffering.

 

[Gingerwitch]

To many - if i could have my big lad back and fork out £100 a week for the next 20 years and never be able to do anything but care for him I would.

It really does not sit right with me when folks have horses pts so the new model can be moved in - then they wonder why there horse never goes well for them- should be pretty obvious the horse obviously knows they have no depth of feeling for their pets.

To folk who do have to have horses pts due to exhausting every other viable action through lack of funds, combined with age, illness or behaviour - then i whole heartedly support you.

I do wish we could ban live exports of any kind and I do wish we had far more slaughter houses so the poor mites did not have to travel so far.

 

[Shantara]

Because your Grandpa could imagine what the rest of his life held for him, and your dog could not. The only person who would have "missed" those extra years of your dog's life is you.

Meanwhile, if you had actually had your dog put to sleep you could have rescued one from an RSPCA dog home that would otherwise be put down, so another dog would live the years that your dog lost. That would have been a huge difference for you, but not for the dog world.

And the same is true of anyone who puts a horse down and replaces it with another, and as long as there is overbreeding of riding horses, that will be the case.

I couldn't until I move out I'm not allowed any more inside pets.
Why would I want to replace my dog? She's not a toy I can give up when she gets old to replace with a new shiny one. She's my little sister!
I do understand what you're saying, but I gave her a life long promise and I intend to keep it.
I do think animals can think about death and be scared of it...or horses wouldn't spook!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I agree with you OP.
Of course there are fates worse than death - being passed from pillar to post, from one low end dealer to another, through sale after sale, to end up on a wagon to god knows where, hundreds of miles away, is much worse than death.
We buy our horses intending to keep them for the rest of their lives and did seriously consider having one young mare pts because of behavioural difficulties. We worked out what was causing the problems and kept her for another 12 yrs. If we hadn't found out the cause, we would never have known that we might have done. The horse wouldn't have known either. There would have been nothing wrong in pts in that case.
It does make me cross though, when I read 'I can't afford to keep my field sound horse', when what they mean is 'I can't afford to keep 2'. As someone else said, those who do best with their horses (however you judge that) are those who make good relationships of mutual trust with them. It is amazing what horses can sense/work out from body language. If you feel that they are disposable, they know.
I have supported several people oh HHO who have decided to pts when in dire straits of one kind or another and will do so in the future.

 

[millikins]

So who are all these people who pts healthy but middle aged horses in order to move in the new model? I've yet to meet one and they never seem to post on HHO.

 

[cptrayes]

I do think animals can think about death and be scared of it...or horses wouldn't spook!

Horses spook because they are afraid of the process of being killed, not because they are afraid of being dead, of which they know nothing.

 

[rascal]

I would rather see a horse pts than be in a home that cant cope with its needs, or get passed from one home to another. In these hard times people cant afford to take on a field ornament. Having the horse pts was the best option and the owner should be praised for making the right (and a very hard) choice.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Millikins - you wont find folk like that on any forum... they simply do not care - i know 1st hand of two related familys - one being of the pony club brigade that have had 5 horses and 7 horses "disposed" of -

It makes me sick - the last one was waiting to be pts and they were looking through horse and hound and making plans to go and view the same day - that made me sick, sick to the pit of my stomach

 

[angel7]

I worked briefly for a horse charity with over 500 horses. I only lasted a few days.

Why?

Because I could not bare the sight of so many arthitic/lame/blind/laminitic horses stumbling about "waiting for their time" because those running the charity didn't believe anything should be put to sleep "just because its old". They thought everything should die naturally.
Large numbers of these horses were kept on bute but you would never know it they were so sore.
They had horses who had suffered strokes- half paralysed sooking up soaked feeds and shuffling about the stables.
Blind horses stood in their stable all day then moved to fields where they stood at the gate all day!
Laminitic donkeys and shetlands with deformed hooves allowed to hobble from stable to muddy starvation paddock for years.
Horses so arthitic throughout their body they could only manage a shuffling walk, and if lay down had terrible trouble getting up again.
Not just one or two but loads!! They were not neglected by any means, all were well fed, even all those with no teeth, but I couldn't work with this mentality.
All of this was done with weekly vets in attendance, and daily farrier visits, none of whom had a problem, because they were all being very well paid. Many of these horses were retired from "loving homes" who paid for their basic keep while there. Their owners couldn't make the decision to PTS themselves so handed over money so they didn't have to.
They had so many of these horses that they couldn't take in genuine cruelty cases, because they were always full.
This was a money making organisation ie a registered charity.

Sickened and enlightened me to the functioning of charities in this day and age, and the inability of owners to growup and face the reality of keeping horses.

 

[Mithras]

And the same is true of anyone who puts a horse down and replaces it with another, and as long as there is overbreeding of riding horses, that will be the case.

It depends on why you have horses. I would hope that my involvement with horses, amongst other things, makes me more understanding, kind, empathetic than if I spent a life not interacting with any creature other than humans. I do compete, and I compete a lot, and nearly always at affiliated level. I take it seriously and have some reasonable success. But even so, I could not morally justify to myself putting to sleep a relatively young healthy horse just so as to save money on its keep to buy another one.

I would also hope that people with horses who introduce their children to them use it as an opportunity to instill values like hard work, looking after others before yourself, etc.. Not on treating them like disposable goods.

If all that my involvement with horses taught me was that other creatures on this planet are disposable items, then whats the point? Its not as if the people mainly talking about pts young healthy horses are doing it as part of a business.

Why do anything if its all to be based on cost? Why does anyone have pets, or incur vet's bills? I maintain that there is something fundamentally wrong with people who do not keep a horse until its past the age to sell without planning to keep it all its natural lifespan, but instead plan how to kill it off at the most opportune financial moment for them.

Dress it up how you like.

 

[indie999]

I am not suprised. That was kinder as someone else probably would have just sold on if problematic and ended up with meat man. I know so many people even ones who think they are decent horse owners who quickly sell their equines purely as they dont want to PTS and make that hard decision but want some money back. Horse is a tool to some.

What gets me is they think they are kind owners! Pillars of the community. Humans much prefer animals any day.

 

[noodle_]

I worked briefly for a horse charity with over 500 horses. I only lasted a few days.

Why?

Because I could not bare the sight of so many arthitic/lame/blind/laminitic horses stumbling about "waiting for their time" because those running the charity didn't believe anything should be put to sleep "just because its old". They thought everything should die naturally.
Large numbers of these horses were kept on bute but you would never know it they were so sore.
They had horses who had suffered strokes- half paralysed sooking up soaked feeds and shuffling about the stables.
Blind horses stood in their stable all day then moved to fields where they stood at the gate all day!
Laminitic donkeys and shetlands with deformed hooves allowed to hobble from stable to muddy starvation paddock for years.
Horses so arthitic throughout their body they could only manage a shuffling walk, and if lay down had terrible trouble getting up again.
Not just one or two but loads!! They were not neglected by any means, all were well fed, even all those with no teeth, but I couldn't work with this mentality.
All of this was done with weekly vets in attendance, and daily farrier visits, none of whom had a problem, because they were all being very well paid. Many of these horses were retired from "loving homes" who paid for their basic keep while there. Their owners couldn't make the decision to PTS themselves so handed over money so they didn't have to.
They had so many of these horses that they couldn't take in genuine cruelty cases, because they were always full.
This was a money making organisation ie a registered charity.

Sickened and enlightened me to the functioning of charities in this day and age, and the inability of owners to growup and face the reality of keeping horses.

which is why imo charities need to mann up a little and make decisions which are best for the horses.......not because they think the horse "needs" to live - blind/in pain etc.....


Too many fluffy bunnies imo.....



im not saying turn into kill shelters etc but boils back to the OP "there are fates worse than death" ..... shelters are overflowing, when are they going to say "enough" and pts horses that just arnt meant to be here anymore?

 

[Missmac]

Maesfen it was recent.

He went through the ring at Llanybydder. I didnt stay to the end of the day but my friend is sure he went with the meat man.

I hope we are wrong tho and it is the same horse we are talking about!

Still doesnt change how i feel about putting an old boy that doesnt owe anyone anything through the ring.

 

[PapaFrita]

I kind of agree with you but from a totally different perspective. I think all reasons are fine. I think if someone pays their £10K for an 8 year old superstar only to decide that the colour is wrong so they'll put it down is fine. Crazy, from a financial POV, but fine from a horse welfare POV. No different to ending the life of any other young, healthy animal as happens all the time to farm animals.

I did wonder if my total OKness with pts horses was just part of general insensitivity, but I get very upset and angry over horses made to work when not right, horses not getting freedom or plenty or forage, etc. I can't stand watching horses suffer, so it isn't total lack of feeling, just that I really don't think there's anything wrong with humanely destroying animals.

This. Totally.

 

[CBAnglo]

A (non) horsey friend recently texted me to ask if I wanted to take on her friend's elderly companion horse as said friend wanted to move to London to be with her boyfriend and she couldnt find a buyer for the horse so he was "holding her back".

I really let it rip to poor (non) horsey friend and told her never to put me in the same room as this other "friend". I also pointed out that I had two retired horses kept on livery already so what on earth did she expect me to do with a third retired horse (I also have another ridden horse).

Why she wouldnt pts? she wanted the extra cash from the sale. Disgusting.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

I am reading this thread in tears because I am waiting on the vet today to come and most likely PTS my 19 yo who is lame on all four feet. I have owned him for 17 years, 4 of which have been retirement years though the lameness is recent, he has enjoyed an easy happy life. I cannot bear to see him suffer and therefore I expect he will be put down this afternoon. I love him dearly but I feel it is the right thing to do. It is not easy but neither is watching him deteriorate. I feel worse about my previous two who were PTS as emergencies and with hindsight an earlier more dignified end would have been much better.

 

[cptrayes]

Millikins - you wont find folk like that on any forum... they simply do not care - i know 1st hand of two related familys - one being of the pony club brigade that have had 5 horses and 7 horses "disposed" of -

It makes me sick - the last one was waiting to be pts and they were looking through horse and hound and making plans to go and view the same day - that made me sick, sick to the pit of my stomach

More details about the horses please?

I find it impossible to believe that people pay to put down sellable, and not old, horses when they could get money for them.

 

[AshTay]

To many - if i could have my big lad back and fork out £100 a week for the next 20 years and never be able to do anything but care for him I would.
.

This has made me well up. I feel the same. I was lucky that I could afford to have other horses at the same time as my lovely old "field ornament" but I'd have given them up (i.e. sold them on, not pts!!) if it meant I could have fixed my old boy.

When he first retired I didn't have another horse to ride at the time but I soon received offers - I'm by no means a great rider ("capable" is probably a fair description) but I am reliable, trustworthy and responsible. I would NEVER have a horse pts unless there was a physical (or mental) reason for it.

 

[honetpot]

There is more to keeping a horse than just meeting its food/turnout requirments. Horses are herd animals and managed in natural situations they exclude old, ill or lame animals as they can cause the whole herd to be at risk.
In livery yard situations this usually means the old lame ned is left on his own with no one to rub his neck or graze with, and he gets the rag ends of any feed that is put out. I have been on a livery yard where a pony existed for years like this out in a field with others but was on his own and totally ignored by the other ponies.
My own old mare was turned out this spring with some other mares and despite of good grazing she failed to thrive, she was not included in the herd. About six weeks ago I brought her home for extra feeding and put her back in with a gelding she has known for a long time, she is now blooming partly I think because they are a pair and share everything.
It not good enough just to park you animal in a field and say its OK because its not in pain and its eating, they have other needs.

 

[pinklilly]

Haven't read through this whole post but I am getting very fed up with all the people telling me to pts my tb because he isn't sound. It's getting to the point I can't be bothered to speak to certain people because I "Should get it shot and get one I can ride "... If he gets worse / is unhappy etc yes I will do but not purely to save money! I like my horse more than I want to ride anyway.

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

I agree OP, its never easy if you love your horse, but I would rather not see my horse suffer, I have had 2 pts, neither old the first was very ill and he lost his fight and the 2nd was never a happy horse I fought so hard for him but in the end he could have lived in a field but the vet felt he would never have been pain free so I let him go and it still hurts me but he doesnt feel the pain anymore.

 

[Archiesmummy]

Sadly, a lot of people make up their minds before they are aware of all the facts. I have done this myself, you see something and make a quick judgement. I learnt that things are not always what they seem or how you see them so judging others is something I try not to do. Perhaps that is a lesson for others too, do not judge. Or, in other words, keep your nose out of other people's business unless you are willing to learn the facts and certainly do not speak ill of people who you do not really know. If you are really concerned, go get the facts from the horses mouth.

 

[Toffee44]

I can't believe the negativity of some people regarding PTS in a horse that can't work anymore.


We have just put OH gelding down as lame for third time with tendon injury, he was only a youngster and had people who were willing to have him but who can guarantee his life for 15years as an unsound field ornament, not really anyone in this climate. My OH said in black and white, he was his responsibility and he would make sure he wouldn't get passed around, so that was the decision and how dare anyone judge him or otherwise for making a decision.

For now Toffee, my veteran is keeping weight on and is perky in her self but if she did what she did last year again or her arthritis became worse or I couldn't keep her for what ever reason PTS is probably the route I would take.

 

[Big Ben]

I am reading this thread in tears because I am waiting on the vet today to come and most likely PTS my 19 yo who is lame on all four feet. I have owned him for 17 years, 4 of which have been retirement years though the lameness is recent, he has enjoyed an easy happy life. I cannot bear to see him suffer and therefore I expect he will be put down this afternoon. I love him dearly but I feel it is the right thing to do. It is not easy but neither is watching him deteriorate. I feel worse about my previous two who were PTS as emergencies and with hindsight an earlier more dignified end would have been much better.

(((((Hugs)))))) to you on a very difficult day.


As to the whole debate, lets face it there are to many horses and not enough good owners, and I agree a lot worse fates then death.

 

[neelie OAP]

Not having dealing with nonsense like that is one of the numerous reason I am grateful I have my horses at home and don't to deal with all that.
Those people need to to get real and leave that very sad responsible owner alone at worse or at best support her.

Yes well said, far too many people think more of themselves than their poor horses, and will do anything to get out of making the final decision, which in so many ways is the kindest thing you can do for the poor creature !

 

[peaceandquiet1]

Big Ben thank you, he is now safely over rainbow bridge and in a better place.

 

[AshTay]

There is more to keeping a horse than just meeting its food/turnout requirments. Horses are herd animals and managed in natural situations they exclude old, ill or lame animals as they can cause the whole herd to be at risk.
In livery yard situations this usually means the old lame ned is left on his own with no one to rub his neck or graze with, and he gets the rag ends of any feed that is put out. I have been on a livery yard where a pony existed for years like this out in a field with others but was on his own and totally ignored by the other ponies.
My own old mare was turned out this spring with some other mares and despite of good grazing she failed to thrive, she was not included in the herd. About six weeks ago I brought her home for extra feeding and put her back in with a gelding she has known for a long time, she is now blooming partly I think because they are a pair and share everything.
It not good enough just to park you animal in a field and say its OK because its not in pain and its eating, they have other needs.

^^^this. I could see the herd dynamics change as my old boy started to deteriorate and it was one of the contributing factors to me making that decision.

 

[TrasaM]

Horses spook because they are afraid of the process of being killed, not because they are afraid of being dead, of which they know nothing.

I would suspect that to a horse it's the same thing. We, including animals, are programmed to survive . Survive or live is the opposite of death.
I am deeply uncomfortable with sound but unrideable horses being killed because they no longer have a useful purpose. Animals do not care about useful purpose and are happy to just graze and roll and do whatever horses do. Fine when a horse is ill or suffering not fine when it's happy grazing in it's field but is of "no further use"
some time back I visited someone who kept st Bernards. One of them had serious hip problems and she kept it because she ' loved' it. To me it looked to be in a lot of pain and i would have had no difficulty in having it put out of it's misery.
My sympathies to anyone who's had to have their horse PTS..my friend is currently devastated by her old loan horse being put down last week because it had a tumour. Having had to put my cat because of illness I know that it's a tough and painfully decision.

 

[cptrayes]

I would suspect that to a horse it's the same thing. .

I don't agree. I think being killed and being dead are two completely separate concepts. And I also think that the horse has knowledge and fear of one, being killed (but no more than of being badly hurt, and probably the same thing), and none at all of the other, being dead.


I could not possibly condemn anyone who has the money to keep only one horse for putting down an unrideable horse so that they can spend their money on riding. We have only one life. It's for living.

If people get satisfaction out of keeping an unrideable horse around and looking after it, fine. But those people need to realise that that's exactly why they do it, it gives them satisfaction at some deep level to feel they are "doing the right thing" by the horse. But they are not in the right place to criticise those who get no satisfaction from that situation and have a horse humanely killed, because they do not know how that other person feels.