why do people feel the need to prolong a suffering horses life???

I am going to be quite controversial here, but something someone once said to me has always stuck with me...

I was asking an older lady with a very old, very arthritic horse why she did not have it PTS as it was suffering. She said that how did I know that ending it's life would end it's suffering? NOBODY knows what happens after we die, only that every living creature goes to great lengths to avoid it.

She said she would rather have her mare there and make her comfortable, as you would your grandparents, than send her off into the unknown in so much pain.

I said didn't she think she was maybe doing it just for herself?
She said that the decision to PTS would be easy for her, she would save a lot of time, money and worry over the horse - IF she believed she was really helping it. But as she couldn't be sure, as no one can, in her eyes she had bo option but to keep her there.

Deep philosophical question - but how do any of us know what happens after?

This was her view and not mine but really made me think. I've had 2 horses PTS after this and despatched lots of injured/sick lambs, but I remember this point of view each time and I must say, I do wonder.
 
Must point out that my POV is that the decision to PTS is a merciful one and one I would still make every time, no matter how hard.

But interesting I think to hear peoples reasonings behind not wanting to make the decision. Not always crackpot?
 
People who choose to keep horses are taking on a massive responsibility as every aspect of the horses life, in the way it is kept and used is in the gift of the owner. Part of that responsibility is deciding when and how the horse meets his end.

When the horse reaches a point where his quality of life is so poor, through disease or age, then serious consideration must be given to PTS. Palliative care is a good thing in most cases up to the point when it ceases to be properly effective, and if the owner is prepaired to support levels of pain relief, then I see no reason why they should not do this, for a time, but continual assesment has to take place.

Prolonging the life of a horse in pain from which there will be no recovery, or of a horse worn out and unable to do the basic functions of graze, walk or get up and down unaided is when the owner evades the important responsibility of doing right by the horse and ending it.
 
I should mention I discussed this case at length with my vet. He said, obviously, he could not tell me what to do, but when he would be called to put her down he would not question my thinking in this case. He was out to her a lot and knew we did all we could. So not just a snap decision. It was thought out long and hard. She also hated not being out and playing with her friends. She always over did things and then ended up lame again. Just keeping in her in and on her own drove her mental. That also got to me.

Terri
 
showaddy1 said:
I'm glad I have stumbled across this thread as I have recently had the TB I 'rescued' from dying of starvation pts. It was an horrific situation to be in and I could have quite easily kept him alive for another 10yrs + but I could not have been sure he'd have been pain free. Luckily for me I had a very sensible vet who told me I couldnt be sentimental and needed to think of the horse.... not many would have done that, they'd have taken my money every month for his analgesia and kept him alive..
So why do ppl feel the need to prolong suffering?, because the grief, and guilt, is suffocating.... and the empty feeling afer the deed is unbearable.
I can only give my personal opinion, my horses welfare was paramount, and if it meant that he had to die to be painfree then that is what had to happen and now I deal with my, and my families grief...
*Incase your wondering 'Ted' was pts due to an horrific case of kissing spine, the fact he was uninsurable due to his overall condition, and because I simply have not got a blank cheque... I know now why he was emaciated, the more weight he put on, the worse his pain....
sorry if i've taken over the thread x
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Sorry to hear this, he was lucky to have had you in his last few months.
 
It is hard and I have had do it but, if you love your horse why would you let it suffer? I couldn't bear to see my horse walking around like a cripple knowing the athletic creature he had once been. The same for my dogs. I could never be an owner who has to carry them outside to do their business as they can't walk for themselves.

Their quality of life is more important to me than their quantity of life or the pain I will feel to let them go.

As much as letting them go will devastate me, to let them suffer would haunt me forever :(
 
as a lot of you know I will very soon have to have my young horse pts. it is made worse by people who think that because he looks well that he is well. he has a degenerative condition obviously that means he will only get worse and quite quickly by the way things are going.
They think that because when the adrenalin gets going he can run across the field bucking, that it makes it ok, well it doesn't!! he suffers so much later, and in fact it is getting rarer to see him do it:(
He is a young horse who I have described in the past as having a 'zest for life' like I have never seen. This alone to me means that the decision needs to be made a tad earlier than if he was an oldie happy to plod around all day.

He looks sad, yesterday I had to go and collect him from the other side of the field, I have NEVER EVER had to do this. I trotted him up and he was VERY lame and obviously not wanting to do it, whereas normally I would have to hold him back. This to me all points to quality of life, or lack of it. As I say I find it less acceptable that a young horse is unable to do what he wants due to pain. He will eventually have to be pts so why not earlier rather than later to save him being miserable ??

I am trying to claim lOU on him as he doesn't fit BEVA/insurance rules to be PTS. however if I have to do it before the claim goes through then so be it, I will not let him suffer either mentally or physically for the sake of a few grand


It will be extremely difficult and I will not be with him when it happens as I know I am not strong enough and would change my mind at the last minute, which would not be fair. Instead he will be with a very good friend whom he has spent A LOT of time with and he loves and trusts:(:(

The photo below of me riding bareback with my crutch just typifies him, being good while his high head shows he really wants to 'GO PLAY':D
 
Moomin1 said:
Another example of why 'rescuing' horses privately can go so terribly wrong.
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Did it really go wrong for the horse though? Poor Teddy, starving in his old home. Then a lovely family comes along, buys him out of kindness and cares for him well. Sadly, there's to be no happy ending for him because his condition can't be cured. The vet says best to pts.

So after a few months of good food and kindness, Teddy's suffering has ended. A heartbreaking (and expensive) ordeal for the family. But for Teddy, who knew nothing of all this, I don't think it wet wrong, I think it was the kindest thing.

Teddy could still be slowly starving with his old owner, or be on his way to slaughter in God knows what conditions, or having his pain ignored by ignorant new owners. Showaddy and family saved him from all that. and I have nothing but respect for them for it.
 
Whilst in some cases, people make the wrong decision and keep a horse going that really should be PTS, I also think that many will PTS at the drop of a hat, before the horse is really ready to go. It takes real strength to put a beloved animal to sleep, and not doing so is not usually due to selfishness, but due to bad judgement and the belief that maybe the animal is not ready to go right now. I have made the mistake before, usually egged on by vets wanting to try more and more treatments, and I have learned from my mistakes. They are regrets I will carry for the rest of my life, in particlar my magnificent Pyrenean mountain dog who suffered unnecessarily due to misdiagnosis of his condition, and a livery client's horse that also suffered due to misdiagnosis. I know now to go with my gut feeling.
 
I have wondered this before, but why can't we put humans out of their suffering?
My Grandma who passed away last year had suffered for months and months. She was barely still 'there' and she could no longer get out of bed. She was in and out of care and hospital and had two falls which crippled her further. While she was receiving the best care possible, it was not good enough and after long and drawn out suffering, she finally passed away in hospital, after failed attempts to revive her. She wanted to die, my mother wanted to end her suffering too, as did I.
Why can we make this unselfish choice for an animal, but not for one of our own kind? One of our own kind who actually WANTS it?

end rant ^^
 
Goldenstar said:
I had someone say to me the day after I had my beloved horse PTS I could never My horse put to sleep I must love him far that you do yours I nearly hit her I could not believe my ears.
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I had this when pts my beloved elderly horse - "are you just fed up with looking after him then? - how long did he take to die" I think it was only my grief that stopped me from removing the stupid woman's head from her shoulders.

Ironically this woman's dog suffered liver failure (as my horse did) and according to her he died 'peacefully' at home. No he didn't, he died demented by the toxins in his brain, confused and in pain - much as my horse would have done if I had left him to die 'naturally'.
 
amymay said:
Actually the RSPCA can take action.

What is the YO doing about this situation?
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How can they take action if in there opinion they would not be able to prove causing suffering in court and the owner won't take advice if it's receiving care the right time to PTS is a subjective judgement .
The RSPCA can't remove or PTS horses unless it's lawful, it does not mean that the officer who saw it likes or agrees with the owner desision.
I think it's very likely that the YO has had discussions with the owner but if the owner does not agree what will the YO do she can't lawfully put the horse to sleep so her only option is to serve notice on the owner how will that help the poor old horse.
OP the only other thought I have is perhaps you could video its efforts to get up so you can show the RSPCA but its a difficult thing to get dragged into .
 
How can they take action if in their opinion they would not be able to prove causing suffering in court and the owner won't take advice if it's receiving care the right time to PTS is a subjective judgement .
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A proper assessment of the situation needs to take place, and it's the opinion of the veterinary consultant that is brought in that matters.

PTS is not a subjective judgement - in many cases it is quite clear cut.
 
amymay said:
A proper assessment of the situation needs to take place, and it's the opinion of the veterinary consultant that is brought in that matters.

PTS is not a subjective judgement - in many cases it is quite clear cut.
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Not always as clear cut.

I've known vets keep things going, a weak owner can often turn into a 'nice little earner' for a vet.

Some vets would, I know, never consider this, but some do.
 
Even a vet cannot compel an owner PTS a horse although to go against a vets advice would not look good if you ended up in court .
In cases where the RSPCA wants to PTS or remove a horse on humane grounds they need a vet to say its necessary the vet needs to be confident an offence has been committed and it's the police that give the final permission the RSPCA can't just go around removing horses and the police are almost always in attendance when horses removed the most usual exception is when the owner has agreed to the horses removal.
 
Nah said:
I have wondered this before, but why can't we put humans out of their suffering?
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That's a huge question which there's no easy answer to. A friend of mine who actually "assisted" his wife's death at her request, has done a lot of campaigning for what he did to not lead to prison. It's a tough one though, we do have to be sure it was the person's wishes and in their best interests and not for the convenience and gain of others.
 
Aww ShowAddy: I remember Teddy well, especially the story of rescuing him with your daughter after being so upset at his condition. Well done on making a brave but kind choice: he was lucky to have found you or could have had a long, painful existence. I hope your ID cob mare is doing well.
 
FionaM12 said:
Did it really go wrong for the horse though? Poor Teddy, starving in his old home. Then a lovely family comes along, buys him out of kindness and cares for him well. Sadly, there's to be no happy ending for him because his condition can't be cured. The vet says best to pts.

So after a few months of good food and kindness, Teddy's suffering has ended. A heartbreaking (and expensive) ordeal for the family. But for Teddy, who knew nothing of all this, I don't think it wet wrong, I think it was the kindest thing.

Teddy could still be slowly starving with his old owner, or be on his way to slaughter in God knows what conditions, or having his pain ignored by ignorant new owners. Showaddy and family saved him from all that. and I have nothing but respect for them for it.
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I just think it's a lesson to be learned when somebody 'rescues' a horse in very poor condition but then hasn't got the funds to provide the treatment to make the horse comfortable in the long run.

Lots of these rescue cases have got many underlying issues which require ongoing treatment and a lot of expense.

A kind act no doubt - I do think though that people need to be careful when they take cases like this on by themselves.
 
Stencilface said:
Poor horse, I do wonder though if it might be happier out in the field 24/7 so it doesn't stiffen up? Obviously depends on the severity of the arthritis.

We have kept old ones going in the past, when maybe others would have pts, but they were all capable of eating, cantering, lying down (and getting up!) and were generally happy in themselves right up until the end.
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Agree with this if it cant live a horses life (without rider too) then have to be repsonsible and PTS. Just because the human cant bear the loss doesnt mean its right to keep it going. That is sad to hear and is cruelty. How awful.
 
Whilst in some cases, people make the wrong decision and keep a horse going that really should be PTS, I also think that many will PTS at the drop of a hat, before the horse is really ready to go. It takes real strength to put a beloved animal to sleep, and not doing so is not usually due to selfishness, but due to bad judgement and the belief that maybe the animal is not ready to go right now.

I truly believe the horse will be in terrible suffering before he decides its 'time to go' . Surely that would be a distressing thought for a prey animal , that they are going to lie there and wait for death - and usually because of pain?
I certainly wouldnt want to wait that long for any of my animals [horses,cats ,dogs]- they should be pts before it gets that far. I know its a hard decision,but most vets are sympathetic and supportive:also vets should also be blunter with these owners who wont make the decision. I dont think owners are taking responsibility when they wont do the best by their horses and therefore arent really fit to own them.
 
cornbrodolly said:
Whilst in some cases, people make the wrong decision and keep a horse going that really should be PTS, I also think that many will PTS at the drop of a hat, before the horse is really ready to go.
I truly believe the horse will be in terrible suffering before he decides its 'time to go' . Surely that would be a distressing thought for a prey animal , that they are going to lie there and wait for death - and usually because of pain?
I certainly wouldnt want to wait that long for any of my animals [horses,cats ,dogs]- they should be pts before it gets that far. I know its a hard decision,but most vets are sympathetic and supportive:also vets should also be blunter with these owners who wont make the decision. I dont think owners are taking responsibility when they wont do the best by their horses and therefore arent really fit to own them.
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This is really close to my heart ATM , and yes I am week :(

My old cat has been very poorly all weekend, very thin not wanting to interact and just sleeping, so in my heavy heart I decided that today would be the day that I made the phone call. !!!!!!

Today I get up, she is all over my dog like a rash, shouting at everyone and rubbing up legs, drinking and eating and much happier, like her old self!!!!

So that is what makes this hard for weak people like me.

Also my old tB had a time of getting down and then unable to get up, the first time it happened I raced up to the hint kennels, they could not come immediately, so I went back to the field to give him a familiar person to keep him company in his last hours.... He was cantering up and down te fence because his tea was late, and giving me a proper telling off!!!

So it is always not so cut and drive, another saying is ' where there is life, there is hope'
 
cornbrodolly said:
I also think that many will PTS at the drop of a hat, before the horse is really ready to go.
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Surely sometimes, the timing's dictated by the owners' limitations too? If you find out your horse has an incurable condition and you know you're not going to be able to afford to keep him or her pain free, pts may be the best option. Re-homing is rarely a good option for such a horse and no-one should put themselves in unsolvable debt because of a horse.

If you had unlimited resources in such a case, the horse could have had years of happy grazing while running up expensive vet's bills. But most of us aren't in a position to provide that and I think it's fair enough to say goodbye before the horse starts to really suffer.
 
mulledwhine said:
This is really close to my heart ATM , and yes I am week :(

My old cat has been very poorly all weekend, very thin not wanting to interact and just sleeping, so in my heavy heart I decided that today would be the day that I made the phone call. !!!!!!

Today I get up, she is all over my dog like a rash, shouting at everyone and rubbing up legs, drinking and eating and much happier, like her old self!!!!

So that is what makes this hard for weak people like me.

Also my old tB had a time of getting down and then unable to get up, the first time it happened I raced up to the hint kennels, they could not come immediately, so I went back to the field to give him a familiar person to keep him company in his last hours.... He was cantering up and down te fence because his tea was late, and giving me a proper telling off!!!

So it is always not so cut and drive, another saying is ' where there is life, there is hope'
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I suppose everyone has different opinions on this sort of thing. Personally if one of my animals had been 'very poorly' I would have got them to a vet pronto, and let them make the decision as to whether they should be pts.
 
patterdale said:
I am going to be quite controversial here, but something someone once said to me has always stuck with me...

I was asking an older lady with a very old, very arthritic horse why she did not have it PTS as it was suffering. She said that how did I know that ending it's life would end it's suffering? NOBODY knows what happens after we die, only that every living creature goes to great lengths to avoid it.

She said she would rather have her mare there and make her comfortable, as you would your grandparents, than send her off into the unknown in so much pain.

I said didn't she think she was maybe doing it just for herself?
She said that the decision to PTS would be easy for her, she would save a lot of time, money and worry over the horse - IF she believed she was really helping it. But as she couldn't be sure, as no one can, in her eyes she had bo option but to keep her there.

Deep philosophical question - but how do any of us know what happens after?

This was her view and not mine but really made me think. I've had 2 horses PTS after this and despatched lots of injured/sick lambs, but I remember this point of view each time and I must say, I do wonder.
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The logical follow-on to that, then, is to pts BEFORE the horse becomes even the tiniest bit unwell. Thus possibly cutting short its life by years - a very strange outlook imo.
I look at it that in the wild (zebras etc) with predators, as soon as a horse starts slowing down it would lose its life, horses are not evolved to live a life of suffering. Predators are far more likely to die of natural causes than prey animals.
 
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