Why does a horse need shoes?

[amandap]

Barefoot Über Alles, and their catchy 'we must keep the barefoot movement going at any cost' aim They pre-date the barefoot 'taliban' although a lot of the hysteria and emotive posting remains the same

Ah thanks. Before my time.

PS amandap I actually like your posts and don't find you closed minded in the least

Thank you. You haven't seen my 'other side' though.

 

[Oberon]

I have huge reservations about some of the mineral supplementation being bandied about on here

I'll be guilty of that

I have to say I was very dubious for a while, until I had my forage tested and got some answers as to why things weren't perfect, no matter how hard I tried. Suddenly my old boy was healthier than he's been for a long time.
I reckon he'd been trying to tell me something for a long time, but I was too stupid to understand him

To say it simply and without any flourish.....test forage - find out (if anything) what's 'wrong' with the forage - fix it = healthy horse. That's the basic crux of it.

It might be a bit experimental and not widely accepted - but I figure it's better than throwing feeds at them blindly (like I used to)

 

[Oberon]

Ah thanks. Before my time.

Before my time too. I believe it's what some farriers call us on their forums

I don't think we ever resorted to name calling though, so we don't have a counter name for them

I like Barefoot Taliban - it makes me chuckle

 

[Goldenstar]

[QUOTE

of course the barefoot taliban will now tell me that he could go barefoot if i did x y and z and how i'll only be masking the problem of his footiness with shoes trouble is instead of prompting me to investigate and pursue keeping him barefoot, the preaching has actually put me off the whole 'barefoot movement'!

Me too - it really puts me off!![/QUOTE]

Put me off too until my curiosity got the better of me result six months on horse working perfectly happily without shoes a few tweaks to diet. ( may not have been needed but saves money anyway)
VET saw the horse lunging today when she was in to see another and said unprompted gosh he's moving well we had a brief conversation about the barefoot and how i handled it which ended in her saying it's time you did an owners trimming course .this was the person who said I had gone over to the dark side when I told them what I was going to do you could have knocked me down with a feather.
I have two shod one just had shoes off and one unshod six months so I am in both camps.

 

[cptrayes]

Simple answer, when the work they are doing causes them to wear down the hoof faster than they can grow more hoof.

..... and the owner is not prepared to increase the workload more gradually so that the horse can learn to adapt, but insists on keeping up the workload and doesn't want to use one of the great variety of boots to prevent excess wear until the horse has adjusted.

Horses that do more work grow foot faster, but they cannot all cope with a sudden increase in work with no shoes on and some need building up steadily over a few months.

Some can't cope with work which is not steady over time. For example some would not do well in winter with an owner who can only do half an hour in the school in the dark after work a couple of times a week but wants to do a two or three hour hack at weekends. That owner would need to boot for the hack or shoe all the time.

 

[rhino]

I'll be guilty of that

It might be a bit experimental and not widely accepted - but I figure it's better than throwing feeds at them blindly (like I used to)

But no one mineral works in isolation, and the links between them are just not well enough understood. You can't supplement one specific vitamin or mineral without having a whole raft of effects.

Forage analysis itself is not a particularly well accepted 'science' and I have seen the results of sending matched forage samples to a range of different companies - the results bore absolutely no resemblence to each other! Add in the unreliability of blood serum testing and there is really no definite way of defining the baseline values in either forage or the horse itself. Then when you consider that even if you make the 'ideal levels' (which in themselves have never been identified) of any mineral available to a horse, you have no idea if that particular horse can utilise it...

Human nutrition is a slowly developing science; equine nutrition is still in the 'dark ages'

Great if you've found something that works for your horses I always go by the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) concept with feeding, which works with me. Not sure whether I'm simple, or stupid though

 

[amandap]

Ah, yes, the mineral question. Well, I'm down that road atm with my tb with chronically poor hooves, running outwards in every direction, under run heels. She has responded well to minimal sugar diet (soaked hay based) and the splatting is much more under control but those heels just don't want to shift. I have been feeding a high spec mineral mix for seven weeks now and I think I am at last seeing the heels moving. I keep thinking I'm imagining it but time will tell for sure. Fingers crossed.

I've got the odd nickname I believe but not as nice as BUA.

 

[jcoombs]

Both of my horses are shod on all feet for a variety of reasons

- road work
- studs for jumping on grass
- mare has a tiny split in back hoof which never gets worse with shoes
- she has damaged a ligament so has a bar shoe to correct the alignment of her pedal bone
- my pony has damaged his coronet band so he has a bar shoe to support the new growth

If they didn't need shoes I wouldn't use them but i think in some cases they are a nessecity

 

[cptrayes]

I am intrigued that people who say that they feel preached at and hate it seem so often to be drawn to participate in threads where they are obviously going to be made unhappy.

Preaching is in the ear of the beholder. For every person feeling that they are being preached at there is at least one who feels that they are learning valuable information. I'd rather upset people who feel I preach than let down people by not giving them the information that they want and need and are asking for.

 

[Casey76]

I'd say some horses need shoes for medical reasons, e.g to effectively splint the foot if they have needed a radical resection or broken the pedal bone etc.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am intrigued that people who say that they feel preached at and hate it seem so often to be drawn to participate in threads where they are obviously going to be made unhappy.

Preaching is in the ear of the beholder. For every person feeling that they are being preached at there is at least one who feels that they are learning valuable information. I'd rather upset people who feel I preach than let down people by not giving them the information that they want and need and are asking for.

Good point don't read threads that you know are going to annoy you .
As I said in my earlier post the tone really put me off at first you can get the impression that some people think all people who use shoes are cruel but in the end I am just plain nosy and that got the better of me. I found my way to the rockley website bought some books made a plan and had a go.

 

[cptrayes]

But no one mineral works in isolation, and the links between them are just not well enough understood. You can't supplement one specific vitamin or mineral without having a whole raft of effects.
......
Human nutrition is a slowly developing science; equine nutrition is still in the 'dark ages'

Rhino have you seen the Dr Kellon course? I haven't done it for the same reasons as you are giving. From what I understand we know what under and overdoses of some minerals are fatal, or at least very harmful, but really not much more.

I'm extremely sceptical of feed plans based on forage analysis which prescribe set ratios of minerals when the analysis of one part of a field can be totally different from another and when it takes no account of minerals in the water supply.

But I do believe in magnesium dosing because it really does seem to work the same way in a horse as a human - assisting in better regulation of insulin - evidenced by less footiness in barefoot horses with a high grass intake. Also I understand that it is water soluble and excess is flushed out safely. I'd be worried if that was not the case.

And I am convinced that myown horses need copper, because my land and spring water are heavy in iron and manganese - to the extent that houses around here are fitted with de-ionising water treatment units to remove it - and I've seen huge differences in concavity in summer since I started to supplement a safe dose of additional copper.

 

[SusieT]

the reason people feel preached is is that we all know that the barefoot brigade genuinely feel that if a horse has shoes on the owner is not really properly looking after their horse and / or the owner is stupid/hasn't researched anything. They believe that everything they/their cronies quote is fact, without any scientific basis. If you could hear the uneducated assumptions your average horse owner(with 2 or 20 years experience!) can come out with you and their inability to spot lameness you would see why so many of us are unhappy to accept horse owners saying that their horse has become sound suddenly on this miracle cure and others saying it will fix everything, degenerative disease, ligament injuries, anything that is wrong with your horse will be fixed by taking off shoes. Then there are wishy washy excuses for why the horse is sensitive etc. etc.

 

[Kaylum]

Hoof health starts with what you feed in the field. Owners are prepared to spend a fortune on supplements but when it comes to what's fed from the field they turn a blind eye or can't be bothered or say its not their problem more like they have no idea. I am currently studying medieval meadows. We can certainly learn a thing or two from them as to what they fed to their horses.

Horses don't need grass in the field, they need the right kind of grass and the right kind of meadow plants.

I agree with cptrayes. The whole land is different and can grow different plants.

 

[tallyho!]

...aaannnd breeeeeathe SusieT.

 

[Goldenstar]

the reason people feel preached is is that we all know that the barefoot brigade genuinely feel that if a horse has shoes on the owner is not really properly looking after their horse and / or the owner is stupid/hasn't researched anything. They believe that everything they/their cronies quote is fact, without any scientific basis. If you could hear the uneducated assumptions your average horse owner(with 2 or 20 years experience!) can come out with you and their inability to spot lameness you would see why so many of us are unhappy to accept horse owners saying that their horse has become sound suddenly on this miracle cure and others saying it will fix everything, degenerative disease, ligament injuries, anything that is wrong with your horse will be fixed by taking off shoes. Then there are wishy washy excuses for why the horse is sensitive etc. etc.

You are making a lot of assumptions about what people believe .
I am curious, do you think I don't know if my dressage horse is sound.

 

[EllenJay]

Sorry, I know that this thread has been done to death, but I was wondering what kind of things a horse *needs* shoes for? Does it need shoes, for example, to go on the roads or to go to shows? This isn't a shoes/barefoot debate thread by any means, I'm just wondering

Because after a severe bout of laminitus, resulting in pedal bone rotation it is the only way I can keep my boy comfortable. Without them he would be PTS

 

[Ibblebibble]

I am intrigued that people who say that they feel preached at and hate it seem so often to be drawn to participate in threads where they are obviously going to be made unhappy.

Preaching is in the ear of the beholder. For every person feeling that they are being preached at there is at least one who feels that they are learning valuable information. I'd rather upset people who feel I preach than let down people by not giving them the information that they want and need and are asking for.

well as i am the one who mentioned preaching i feel i should answer the threads on barefoot/shoeing interest me as i have 5 unshod/barefoot horses and would prefer to keep them that way, what makes me uncomfortable is the insistence by some that barefoot is the only way and horses categorically do not need shoes at all and as an owner you are somehow at fault if you do shoe. some of the debates do become very one sided and i feel that sometimes some of the barefoot advocates lecture rather than invite discussion, sadly this reminds me too much of the time i spent living with some members of a religious group who tried to convert me
I'm sure the posters don't mean to come across this way and i do respect them for their knowledge and dedication but think if they lightened up a bit people would be more open to their ideas
just my opinion of course and i am fully aware that my past plays a big part in how i feel

 

[tallyho!]

I think you would find it hard to find a post where a 'preacher" has ever said "horses categorically do not need shoes at all"...

You may find posts where people have said "a lot of horses do not need shoes" and even before I knew about barefoot I have always found the barefooters on HHO and other forums helpful and are more than willing to discuss. I see it the other way around where, at the slight mention of barefoot, the taliban-hunt begins in earnest as it is already happening here... surprise surprise.

I have two barefoot horses and currently ride a shod horse. Nothing wrong with any of them and I would not take the shoes off just because I believe in the benefits of barefoot. Horse is sound and is shod very well.

My problem is BADLY shod horses.

 

[rhino]

Rhino have you seen the Dr Kellon course? I haven't done it for the same reasons as you are giving. From what I understand we know what under and overdoses of some minerals are fatal, or at least very harmful, but really not much more.

I've looked at them, but no plans to sign up at the present time. I'm also dubious about some of her more recent EPSM work, now she has broken away from the co-contributors of her early work. I've also looked into the available eqNut courses in the UK but apart from a PGC at Aberystwyth and a ProfDip through TOCES there is nothing much available.

As far as oral magnesium goes, you should be fairly safe. Osmotic diarrhoea and enterolith formation (given that magnesium can substitute for calcium under certain circumstances) are the only 2 highlighted adverse effects of magnesium supplementation in horses. Actual magnesium toxicity has the ability to cause intestinal erosion and renal failure but would be very difficult to induce orally There is the risk of disrupting zinc and iron absorption due to too much magnesium but again very little research to back it up.

The magnesium not needed is excreted in urine; that which is stored is as a fairly inert compound within bone.

My main 'beef' with the trend of supplementing magnesium is all the diseases and processes that magnesium is 'associated with'. 'Associated with', like 'promotes' or 'supports' is a fairly meaningless piece of pseudo-scientific jargon. I wants proof!

 

[Goldenstar]

Hoof health starts with what you feed in the field. Owners are prepared to spend a fortune on supplements but when it comes to what's fed from the field they turn a blind eye or can't be bothered or say its not their problem more like they have no idea. I am currently studying medieval meadows. We can certainly learn a thing or two from them as to what they fed to their horses.

Horses don't need grass in the field, they need the right kind of grass and the right kind of meadow plants.

I agree with cptrayes. The whole land is different and can grow different plants.

If you are studying medieval meadows You will know it was when then they discovered how to cultivate more oats that they were able to breed more horses keep them alive in winter work them harder travel more etc etc increased mobility was on the back of the oat.its a fasinating subject.

 

[SusieT]

ps- regarding commenting on these threads-it is because some of us feel that there is a massive danger of horses ending up suffering due to the attitude of some posters. Because we disagree doesn't mean we should just sit back and let you lecture your unproven theories at anyone.

 

[Goldenstar]

ps- regarding commenting on these threads-it is because some of us feel that there is a massive danger of horses ending up suffering due to the attitude of some posters. Because we disagree doesn't mean we should just sit back and let you lecture your unproven theories at anyone.

And no horses are suffering because of badly balanced shoes and those offering no heel support .

 

[tallyho!]

ps- regarding commenting on these threads-it is because some of us feel that there is a massive danger of horses ending up suffering due to the attitude of some posters. Because we disagree doesn't mean we should just sit back and let you lecture your unproven theories at anyone.

Then why don't you post something that disproves our theories? Then we can have a proper discussion.

 

[Kaylum]

If you are studying medieval meadows You will know it was when then they discovered how to cultivate more oats that they were able to breed more horses keep them alive in winter work them harder travel more etc etc increased mobility was on the back of the oat.its a fasinating subject.

That's right I just got the book today and it is so interesting.

 

[thatsmygirl]

I wish I could have all my horses bare foot but iv got 2 who just won't cope.
Iv done the reserch and had fab advise on here but they were so uncomfy I put shoes back on.

The thing that makes me wonder as well is the amount off people who say their horses are sore, are horses suffering while people try to go bare foot?
Just a thought

 

[SusieT]

Time and time again you can say anything on the internet, and say it loud enough and long enough people will start to think there's something to it, even if there isn't. That is why we push for scientific research. You can clal Rockely horse research at me all you like-but there's a reason nobody has taken it any further

 

[rhino]

You can clal Rockely horse research at me all you like-but there's a reason nobody has taken it any further

Yes, it's called lack of money. Same as in every scientific discipline

 

[SusieT]

There's the automatic fall back for barefooters- oh but look at lame horses in shoes. And all I'd say is nobody says bad shoes are a good idea..

 

[SusieT]

really.. so the professor that rockley was working with just decided to leave it? hmm? It doesn't cost him anything to document what they're doing-shockinly a lot of research is done to improve welfare (I know, another think you all hate to hear, that anyone who isn't all barefoot doesn't understand that the badd old corporate world is stopping them from changing the world)