Why does a horse need shoes?

You don't get quality research without quality funding. There is research into welfare yes, I very nearly applied for a PhD being advertised last month, being funded by WHW :)

However, I don't see how good shoeing or trimming is any more of a welfare issue than using different bits/tack/training methods :confused: Done properly the horse won't suffer negative effects, done badly they will.
 
As a recent to convert to barefoot for one of my two horses I have to say I'm extremely grateful to the Barefoot Taliban. My horse had a rather gloomy prognosis after MRI revealed collateral ligament damage, navicular and pedal osteitis. He's now at Rockley and is sound and his way of going is much improved. However there is no way I would have ever considered attempting to make the transition for him at home. It seems to me that it is a lot of hard work keeping a barefoot horse sound and just because owners who are pushed for time can't fit this kind of maintenance into their routine doesn't mean they should be accused of not looking after their horses. That said I've never seen any posts where that has happened.

In my case I'm a great believer in 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. I wouldn't have considered barefoot without my horse having problems because it wouldn't have occurred to me that I needed to. I don't think that makes me a bad owner. (Some may disagree) but I am glad I have learned about barefoot and I will keep researching it.

Oh and I should also say my other horse is a youngster who is shod in front only and goes really well like it. I think everyone should just do the best they can for their horse whether it be with or without shoes. :)
 
Susie T, the reason Rockley is struggling to take the work any further is the lack of funding to MRI the sound horses at the end of the rehab. Insurance only pays for one, and I know I can't afford to have my horse re-scanned at the end of his time there to help the project. Nic can only take 7 at a time for a minimum of 12 weeks so it takes a great deal of time to get the many results required to get further funding.

I can see you're against the place but I can only speak as I find. My horse is much better since being there.
 
absoloutely, everyone should do the best with or without shoes. And I'l lcontinue to advise as I see fit and proven.
 
SusieT said:
and others saying it will fix everything, degenerative disease, ligament injuries, anything that is wrong with your horse will be fixed by taking off shoes.
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I don't think many people actually say it will fix anything do they?? It has however been proven to fix issues that have not been able to be resolved whilst wearing shoes.
I think you will find also that instances of some of the degenerative diseases you mention are very rare if not non existant in horses that have always been barefoot.

OP- IMO the most common reason a horse would need shoes is if they wear their hoof down quicker than it grows.Even this with *most* horses can be resolved with proper transitioning,conditioning and management,but there will always be some who either do so much work on wearing surfaces or just don't have great horn quality,foot shape etc that staying barefoot is just not practical for the owner or comfortable for the horse.

Other reasons I guess could be the need for studs,the need for remedial shoeing,being unable to provide suitable diet/managment.

I personally think many more horses could go barefoot than people realise,but I also think there are horses that it wouldn't suit and owners that would find it difficult,and in those cases shoes are the most obvious and most practical solution.

My personal bug bear is when people shoe without really even knowing why or thinking it through,but in cases where it has been an informed decision and the horses welfare has been the main consideration then I don't see a problem with it.
 
thatsmygirl said:
Somebody I knew send a horse to rockley and when he came home it wasn't long before he was back in shoes. What a waste off money.
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Not knowing why the horse was shod, I can only assume he needed them. At least the shoes were going back onto a healthier foot.
 
SusieT said:
There's the automatic fall back for barefooters- oh but look at lame horses in shoes. And all I'd say is nobody says bad shoes are a good idea..
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Bad shoes are a bad idea, nutty barefoot evangelists who refuse to accept that all horses in all circumstances can work without shoes are a bad idea.
But refusing to accept that many people can make barefoot work for them and I have certainly made it work for one of mine and cptrayes is hunting her horses without shoes surely that's food for thought it was for me I thought how can that be.
But saying that people who are working their horses without shoes simply can't tell their horses are lame is just having a closed mind.
I am amazed how my horse has adapted and the changes in his feet he was always a extragant mover but now has this spine tingling heel first landing he just looks oozing power, I honestly doubted that it was true you could work horses hard with no shoes but some horses honestly can.
 
devonlass said:
My personal bug bear is when people shoe without really even knowing why or thinking it through,but in cases where it has been an informed decision and the horses welfare has been the main consideration then I don't see a problem with it.
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Like!:)

I have thought about starting a thread on here similar to this one with the simple question 'why do you shoe your horse?'

My own answer,from years ago before I started learning how much there is to know and how much we still don't know was.........' I love the sound of a well shod horse'.......(now hate this sound btw!:))
I also thought having shoes put on my horse(she was new to me and managing fine without shoes!) made me appear to be a better horsewoman,more professional. Not having shoes would show me up as a happy hacker/weekend rider.....which is exactly what I was.

I now ride nearly every day on roads, rocks, grassland,moorland and cobbles. If my horse was showing problems I would boot.

I would not want to suffer the transferred concussion from a shod horse ever again,or the skating on tarmac!

This is my personal preference,not a sermon. :cool:
 
Ibblebibble said:
well as i am the one who mentioned preaching i feel i should answer;) the threads on barefoot/shoeing interest me as i have 5 unshod/barefoot horses and would prefer to keep them that way, what makes me uncomfortable is the insistence by some that barefoot is the only way and horses categorically do not need shoes at all and as an owner you are somehow at fault if you do shoe. some of the debates do become very one sided and i feel that sometimes some of the barefoot advocates lecture rather than invite discussion, sadly this reminds me too much of the time i spent living with some members of a religious group who tried to convert me:(
I'm sure the posters don't mean to come across this way and i do respect them for their knowledge and dedication but think if they lightened up a bit people would be more open to their ideas:)
just my opinion of course and i am fully aware that my past plays a big part in how i feel;)
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I think some of us get pushed into corners and have to 'come out' sometimes if you like. I admit I do believe shoes are damaging to horses in the main and especially on young horses with already underdeveloped hooves being shod young and then back to back throughout their lives. For me developing and keeping strong hoof structures (especially the back half) is a great way to prevent many problems, so for me personally it's a no brainer for that reason alone. I certainly don't believe peeps who shoe are bad owners though. :confused: I am not so arrogant to know I am 100% right, I just have different fundamental beliefs at this time. I just read, watched and learned following a route that made total sense to me personally. I'm no scientist, academic, bare foot or even horse expert, I'm just an ordinary (old lol) person who is prepared to discuss my beliefs and keep on learning mostly from my own horses now.

I think we all learn more from clashes so long as they don't get personal or too nasty. I know having to explain myself helps me revisit my thinking and check it is still making sense to me. I also get prompted to find out more. It would be a very stagnant, boring place if we all thought the same and had the same experiences to share. :D

Back to the OP, someone mentioned fractured pedal bone as a reason for shoeing, in my understanding this is one great reason to shoe. ;)
 
'But saying that people who are working their horses without shoes simply can't tell their horses are lame is just having a closed mind.' and you're putting words into my mouth....
 
But to pick up on that-how many people do you see saying 'my horse doesn't need back shoes only front shoes' and you have to break it to them that yes, soemtimes it's because more weight is on the front feet, more often they just aren't aware their horse is a bit sore behind as hindlimb lameness is harder to diagnose. But these people think they are doing better for their horse by taking some shoes off, and working away with the horse. Anyway, I digress from the OP, I've explained my reasons for posting anyway.
 
devonlass said:
My personal bug bear is when people shoe without really even knowing why or thinking it through,but in cases where it has been an informed decision and the horses welfare has been the main consideration then I don't see a problem with it.
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This. Shoeing just because that's what you do, is something I don't feel is a wise stance to take. Also totally leaving hoof care to your professional and not learning even the basics about hooves is imo also unwise.

Barefoot horses can have loads of problems too if not trimmed, worked and fed appropriately. Bad hooves are not just in shod horses. :D
 
Ibblebibble said:
well as i am the one who mentioned preaching i feel i should answer;) the threads on barefoot/shoeing interest me as i have 5 unshod/barefoot horses and would prefer to keep them that way, what makes me uncomfortable is the insistence by some that barefoot is the only way and horses categorically do not need shoes at all and as an owner you are somehow at fault if you do shoe. some of the debates do become very one sided and i feel that sometimes some of the barefoot advocates lecture rather than invite discussion, sadly this reminds me too much of the time i spent living with some members of a religious group who tried to convert me:(
I'm sure the posters don't mean to come across this way and i do respect them for their knowledge and dedication but think if they lightened up a bit people would be more open to their ideas:)
just my opinion of course and i am fully aware that my past plays a big part in how i feel;)
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Totally agree and I probably have a completely different past to you :)
 
I love threads like this, I learn so much and enjoys peoples points off views.
I am really interested in bare foot and how people make it work, works for 3 off mine but not the other 2. Ideally I wouldn't shoe anything.
I really use to be totally against bare foot and thought what a lot off poo but actually once you start to look into it, it's very complex and so much to learn and really does make you think about their feet and what effects shoes have and the concussion load through the feet and legs not to mention the feeding, trim, and work load etc to keep the foot healthy.
It's a subject I will always find interesting and love to learn from oberon on the subject who helped me with lots off info when I tried to get my tb to go bare foot but sadly didn't work
 
Lets list good reasons to shoe:

You really want to ride with studs.

The horse has a pedal bone fracture, a very big dorsal wall resection to remove a keratoma and similar serious issues. (This does not include cracks unless they are a result of coronet band damage, because most of those heal with no shoe on when the foot can rid itself of the stresses that have caused the crack. It does not include laminitis.)

Your horse has a metabolic disease which is proving difficult to control with diet and/or drugs and is perpetually sore without shoes on.

As an owner you are unable to provide the work/diet/turnout that your particular horse needs to be comfortable without his shoes on. NO criticism is implied by this. If you cannot turn out at night instead of during the day, or strip graze, or work the horse every day and those things are what your particular horse would need, then you cannot.

I personally think this list is comprehensive and that those horses who "just can't do it" will fit into one of the last two categories, though many, many metabolically challenged horses are undiagnosed.
 
rhino said:
However, I don't see how good shoeing or trimming is any more of a welfare issue than using different bits/tack/training methods :confused: Done properly the horse won't suffer negative effects, done badly they will.
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Haven't read the post that prompted this response but the only difference I can see is that once shoes are on, they are on 24/7 whereas tack etc. is on for a small proportion of a 24 hour period. Yes there will be residual effects from 'abuse' through tack but the tack itself is off and the horse has release.
I don't see shoes as abuse though myself I must stress unless they are put very badly and inappropriately. I see some extreme and bad trimming as verging on abuse though.
 
SusieT said:
'But saying that people who are working their horses without shoes simply can't tell their horses are lame is just having a closed mind.' and you're putting words into my mouth....
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I will quote you your words " inability to spot lameness " .
Some horses can work happily without shoes I can certainly spot lameness my shoeless horse ( or any horse) he had one episode caused I think by the very hard frozen ground it was slight short lived I got a pair of boots used them twice then all was fine.
Now I will admit I posted about on here and did get people saying his diet was the issue and yes you are right they where not going to accept me saying that the diet was fine but we sorted the issue and learned for the future that I need to be careful if the ground freezes hard.
I am not a barefooter as such I have shod horses as well but this is an interesting experiance and has made me question many things that I took for granted.
 
cptrayes said:
Lets list good reasons to shoe:

You really want to ride with studs.

The horse has a pedal bone fracture, a very big dorsal wall resection to remove a keratoma and similar serious issues. (This does not include cracks unless they are a result of coronet band damage, because most of those heal with no shoe on when the foot can rid itself of the stresses that have caused the crack. It does not include laminitis.)

Your horse has a metabolic disease which is proving difficult to control with diet and/or drugs and is perpetually sore without shoes on.

As an owner you are unable to provide the work/diet/turnout that your particular horse needs to be comfortable without his shoes on. NO criticism is implied by this. If you cannot turn out at night instead of during the day, or strip graze, or work the horse every day and those things are what your particular horse would need, then you cannot.

I personally think this list is comprehensive and that those horses who "just can't do it" will fit into one of the last two categories, though many, many metabolically challenged horses are undiagnosed.
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Fair enough.

I would suggest that it would be one of my (pipe lol) dreams that liveries could be more flexible and provide more facilities for grass challenged horse for eg.
I will always be so thankful that I am lucky enough to have mine at home.
 
SusieT said:
Time and time again you can say anything on the internet, and say it loud enough and long enough people will start to think there's something to it, even if there isn't. That is why we push for scientific research. You can clal Rockely horse research at me all you like-but there's a reason nobody has taken it any further
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And yet you are perfectly happy to advocate the long term use of shoes for which there is NO scientific evidence whatsoever that they are either required, or that they are harmless.

No valid scientific studies have been done into the use of shoes at all. A small number of studies have been done into shoeing, say, laminitics, but these were with tiny numbers and had no unshod control group and are therefore completely invalid.

What evidence we do have suggests, at the very least, that shoes reduce the blood supply to the foot and that they result in lateral cartilages which are markedly smaller in shod horses than unshod ones and lack a blood supply that is present in unshod horses.

And now I suppose you will accuse me of accusing you of being cruel to your horse by shoeing it, as if somehow it is my fault that these things are almost certainly the truth?

I am amused by people like you Susie who seem, quite honestly, to be somewhat desperate to believe that Rockley is not curing horses that vets and farriers have written off and that those vets and farriers must simply have diagnosed the horses wrongly and there wasn't that much wrong with them after all for them to be so easily cured without shoes.
 
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My horse wears shoes because, despite the fact she has fab feet, I would be reluctant to go xc without being able to put studs in. Having gone xc schooling yesterday with water sitting on top of hard, compacted earth, I would not have been happy without them.

If I wasn't competing regularly, I would at least consider going without them. However, as the farriers we have work for/are apprenticed with the remedial farrier at Rossdales, I'm more than happy that they do a good job.
 
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All my horses are unshod, they compete and hack normally, they are seen by a properly qualified farrier regularly. None of them have ever gone footy, ever had foot abscesses and I have not had my pasture analysed. They do not get fed magnesium. My 14yo advanced horse has never ever had shoes on, yet still managed to get a ligament injury hooling around in the field, before anyone says anything, her feet are perfectly balanced. All of my horses are seen by the farrier whilst still on their mothers or as soon as they arrive as weanlings.

I agree with those that have posted that you are made to feel like a bad owner if your horse is unable to go barefoot and a lot of the advisers DO sound like preachers, some sound patronising at best and fanatical at worst. Some of the advice is also hair-raisingly inaccurate This puts people off.

My major problem with the barefoot movement is that it is unregulated and any old person can set themselves up as a trimmer. Now I realise that not all farriers are brilliant but then there are also some very bad trimmers around - remember the self taught angle grinder woman? Just this week I have learnt of a lovely Hano mare, sent to a friend of mine for training, the barefoot trimmer attended her last Friday and by Saturday the poor mare could not even stand she was in so much agony. So for every bad farrier there is a bad barefoot trimmer and they can do as much damage as each other, but at least with a bad farrier you have somewhere to complain to, who do you complain to about trimmers like the ones mentioned above?
 
I would like to know how to get a medieval meadow in an Irish reclaimed bog... yesterday. :D

Having moved my horses three times in the past few years I can categorically say all grass is not equal in regards to the health of horses. If you happen to live in a place that suits your horses consider yourself very lucky.
 
amandap said:
I would like to know how to get a medieval meadow in an Irish reclaimed bog... yesterday. :D

Having moved my horses three times in the past few years I can categorically say all grass is not equal in regards to the health of horses. If you happen to live in a place that suits your horses consider yourself very lucky.
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I must be exceptionally lucky, I moved to a completely different area (75 miles away) - made absolutely no difference, horses still shiny, healthy happy athletes :D

Old place was on clay (horrible) new place is on peat (lovely):D
 
Amaranta said:
My major problem with the barefoot movement is that it is unregulated and any old person can set themselves up as a trimmer.
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It's not good is it?

I blame the Worshipful Company of Farriers. If they had grasped the nettle when the US barefoot movement first hit this country and changed their syllabus so that apprentices actually get to see hardworking barefoot horses and learn how to manage them, then the trimming industry would never have got off the ground.

It's not too late. If they did it now, the trimming industry would atrophy really quickly and horse owners would know where to turn to for hoof care for their horses.
 
My big boy is now shod in front because I can not get enough control of grass intake AND give him a good enough quality of life in my current circumstances. He could go bare, very happily ( as he does in winter) if I had the option to go grass free without stabling.
 
Amaranta said:
All my horses are unshod, they compete and hack normally, they are seen by a properly qualified farrier regularly. None of them have ever gone footy, ever had foot abscesses and I have not had my pasture analysed. They do not get fed magnesium. My 14yo advanced horse has never ever had shoes on, yet still managed to get a ligament injury hooling around in the field, before anyone says anything, her feet are perfectly balanced. All of my horses are seen by the farrier whilst still on their mothers or as soon as they arrive as weanlings.

I agree with those that have posted that you are made to feel like a bad owner if your horse is unable to go barefoot and a lot of the advisers DO sound like preachers, some sound patronising at best and fanatical at worst. Some of the advice is also hair-raisingly inaccurate This puts people off.

My major problem with the barefoot movement is that it is unregulated and any old person can set themselves up as a trimmer. Now I realise that not all farriers are brilliant but then there are also some very bad trimmers around - remember the self taught angle grinder woman? Just this week I have learnt of a lovely Hano mare, sent to a friend of mine for training, the barefoot trimmer attended her last Friday and by Saturday the poor mare could not even stand she was in so much agony. So for every bad farrier there is a bad barefoot trimmer and they can do as much damage as each other, but at least with a bad farrier you have somewhere to complain to, who do you complain to about trimmers like the ones mentioned above?
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I agree about the trimmers but nothings stopping the owner suing the trimmer if they feel aggrieved .They can take them to the small claims court.
People must take responsibility for learning knowing and monitoring what is done to there horse and I mean every thing the farrier the vet the back person you have to take responibity .
When I started this I looked into the trimmers and have a very nice young man doing mine his is a low impact approach what he does will never make a horse lame he takes a gentle long term approach that I was comfortable with I was worried by some stuff I read about trimmers who take a more interventist approach and was not for me.
 
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