Why does your horse have to change diet when shoes come off? makes no sense.

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englund

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Right can some one clear this up as it is not logical. Horses hooves grow with or without shoes so why change the diet when shoes are removed?

Give me the science not hearsay mumbo jumbo.
 
Its not rocket science. Yes, horses hooves grow with or without the right diet, but they do not grow as well as they can with the right diet.

Ie. if you don't eat plenty of calcium rich foods, your bones and nails still grow, but they will be weak and break easily...

Changing the diet when the shoes come off helps the hooves stand a better chance of toughening up and being strong enough to go bare (amongst other reasons).

Shoes on horses allow the diet to be crappy and get away with it, but you may well have further problems down the line.
 
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dressagelove said:
Its not rocket science. Yes, horses hooves grow with or without the right diet, but they do not grow as well as they can with the right diet.

Ie. if you don't eat plenty of calcium rich foods, your bones and nails still grow, but they will be weak and break easily...

Changing the diet when the shoes come off helps the hooves stand a better chance of toughening up and being strong enough to go bare (amongst other reasons).

Shoes on horses allow the diet to be crappy and get away with it, but you may well have further problems down the line.
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THIS IMPLIES MOST PEOPLE FEED A CRAPPY DIET WHICH I DONT THINK IS TRUE, I USE ONLY TOP BRANDS IN CORRECT QUANTITIES. SO APART FROM THOSE THAT MAYBE FEED A POOR DIET WHATS THE SCIENCE BEHIND CHANGING THE DIET - QUESTION STILL NOT ANSWERED
 
shysmum said:
where to start is the question I'd have to put back to you ;)

Search Barefoot Diet on here, and hopefully you'll find what you're looking for.
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Im already feeding a good diet, so the change of diet only applies to those people not feeding a good diet, but surely theres no science in that its common sense to feed a good diet with or without shoes on. QUESTION STILL NOT ANSWERED.

WHATS THE SCIENCE BEHIND CHANGING DIET FOR BARE FOOT HORSES IF THEY ARE ALREADY BEING FED CORRECTLY? ANSWER.. THERE ISNT ANY SCIENCE ITS COMMON SENSE.
 
Check the sugar content in your "top brands" Englund. If you research type II diabetes you will find the same effects on nail quality in diabetics who can't tolerate the amount of sugar that they are eating as in horses. (for what it's worth, it is now also linked very strongly in humans to the development of Alzheimers.)

Many horses on diets that are too high in carbs grow weak feet, just like diabetics grow weak nails. You can hide that weakness with shoes in horses but you haven't removed it, as you have just found out by removing shoes from two of your horses. They can't even work in a dressage arena without shoes on. Do you think that is normal for a horse???

Lot's of horses do barefoot fine without a diet change. Yours aren't coping.

And by the way, it isn't a "barefoot diet" that anyone is recommending you, it's just a return to a good old-fashioned horse diet of low carbs, high fibre, like wot people fed in the old days.

There are plenty of ridiculously expensive feeds out there with big brand names on which are no more good for horses than feeding a child in McDonald's every day.

You sound angry that people have suggested a diet change for your horses. Am I right in reading you that way? If so, why?
 
........so, hoof quality improves given a better diet, so if a shod horse was fed the same diet as a 'barefoot' horse it stands to reason his feet should also improve, yes?

So if it is as simple as that why not feed him that diet in the first place?

I have often wondered about the 'barefoot' diet :o

My unshod, never shod, therefore barefoot, horses don't have a special, all singing, all dancing diet and they have great hooves, guess I am just very, very lucky in that then. I also don't go a whole heap on the various snake oils sold to rub on their hooves either :( I once did an experiment, I had horses with good hooves that both I and my farrier were familiar with.
 
Just because its a well known brand doesnt make it a good food :eek::eek::eek: Tell us what you feed we'l tell you the sugar content ;)

They are often the very worst culprits to be frank.

The reason is that shoes cover up problems with the hooves. As hoof growth is a direct result of diet, once the shoes come off problems start to become apparent to the owner so the diet is improved to grow down a healthier hoof.
 
I have nothing to say regarding your question Englund, but a friendly note, you may want to read your posts before you press 'submit' as you do come across rather blunt and rude, a little more often than sometimes...
 
dressagelove said:
Its not rocket science. Yes, horses hooves grow with or without the right diet, but they do not grow as well as they can with the right diet.

Ie. if you don't eat plenty of calcium rich foods, your bones and nails still grow, but they will be weak and break easily...

Changing the diet when the shoes come off helps the hooves stand a better chance of toughening up and being strong enough to go bare (amongst other reasons).

Shoes on horses allow the diet to be crappy and get away with it, but you may well have further problems down the line.
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"Shoes on horses allow the diet to be crappy and get away with it" OMG ARE YOU HAVING ME ON HOW THE HELL DO SHOES ALLOW A CRAPPY DIET??? A CRAPPY DIET SHOWS IN DULL SKIN POOR CONDITION ECT WITH OR WITHOUT SHOES, COME ON BE SENSIBLE.
 
englund said:
Im already feeding a good diet, so the change of diet only applies to those people not feeding a good diet, but surely theres no science in that its common sense to feed a good diet with or without shoes on. QUESTION STILL NOT ANSWERED.

WHATS THE SCIENCE BEHIND CHANGING DIET FOR BARE FOOT HORSES IF THEY ARE ALREADY BEING FED CORRECTLY? ANSWER.. THERE ISNT ANY SCIENCE ITS COMMON SENSE.
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I doubt if you are feeding a "good" diet. An expensive one maybe. A branded and marketed one maybe. But a "good" diet is lots of fibre and no molasses (moglo) and correct mineral balancing tailored to your own forage and grazing.


There is plenty of science. Check out insulin resistance in horses and look at human type II diabetes which is very similar. The two are even treated with the same drugs.

Check your white bag labels. I'll bet your feed has added molasses in it.

If your horses are as sensitive to that as one of mine is, and many others are, then you will not succeed with barefoot until you remove it.
 
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englund said:
"Shoes on horses allow the diet to be crappy and get away with it" OMG ARE YOU HAVING ME ON HOW THE HELL DO SHOES ALLOW A CRAPPY DIET??? A CRAPPY DIET SHOWS IN DULL SKIN POOR CONDITION ECT WITH OR WITHOUT SHOES, COME ON BE SENSIBLE.
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Jees you are angry, aren't you?

Englund, if your two horses shoes have not allowed you to get away with feeding a suboptimal diet, why are they now suddenly unable to work in an arena just because they have no shoes on?

And why have you been forced to remove their shoes because their feet are such poor quality that your farrier does not have enough foot to nail a shoe to?

I'll bet you that if you change your horses diet to strip out all sugar and restrict their access to grass until the late autumn, and add magnesium and yeast and possibly copper, that you will see a huge improvement in the appalling quality of the feet of both your horses.

Go on, I dare you. Instead of ranting on here about the perfect diet you already feed, try it and see what happens.

Please enlighten us, what is this "perfect diet" that your horses are on that they manage to have produced such bad feet that they cannot even be ridden on a soft surface?
 
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AprilBlossom said:
I have nothing to say regarding your question Englund, but a friendly note, you may want to read your posts before you press 'submit' as you do come across rather blunt and rude, a little more often than sometimes...
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The problem is on this forum its all brown rice and sandals the fact is i say it like it is take it or leave it i dont care. Information on this site is taken seriously by novice owners and therefore needs to be justified.

Once again whats the actual science behind changing the diet? so far all weve gained is that if its a crappy diet it should be changed. That does not explain the science.

Polite notice I am very aware how blunt I am maybe I will get the answers im looking for now.
 
I think this may not be the right forum for you. We are all adults here , and we try to help each other and DISCUSS. If you cannot be bothered to google ( or search on here) the reasons for barefoot diet, then you are not prepared to come on here all guns blazing are you ?

Please do not insult our intelligence. Not often I get angry either.
 
mulledwhine said:
I have never changed their diet when shoes come off !

I suppose I have been lucky
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Ditto this :) Whenever shoes come off mine, I give them a couple of weeks off in the field [mixture of ground for them in there, stony ground round the trough/hills/banks/stony part concrete track going through the middle etc. Few weeks in there, their feet seem toughen up just fine, and then re-introduce work accordingly :) Don't have issues with any of mine currently, feet like concrete and good shape luckily. All just live out on grass 24/7, with hay or a bit of conditioning mix if needed over winter.
 
Englund, by all means get angry with the feed companies producing marketing to persuade you to buy food that is not good for your horses. You are far, far from alone, and there is no blame in having listened to names like Spillers and Dodsen and Horrel.

But please keep it away from people like me who are trying to help you. No one is blaming you, just trying to help.
 
It's not Englund, there are many heated discussions and differing opinions.
In every post I have read from you, you have given a tone that your opinion is gospel, and anyone who disagrees must be naive or novice. You'll do well to eat a slice of humble pie - it'll go nicely with brown rice ;)

And I like sandals, flip flops are my fave!
 
englund said:
The problem is on this forum its all brown rice and sandals the fact is i say it like it is take it or leave it i dont care. Information on this site is taken seriously by novice owners and therefore needs to be justified.

Once again whats the actual science behind changing the diet? so far all weve gained is that if its a crappy diet it should be changed. That does not explain the science.

Polite notice I am very aware how blunt I am maybe I will get the answers im looking for now.
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Oh boy you really know how to get people to help you, don't you?

I have given you the science. Get off your backside and go and research insulin resistance in horses and type II diabetes in humans and read the white labels on those expensive branded bags you get your feed in.


Can we also clarify here?

YOU are the one with two horses who cannot even work in an arena, they are so sore without shoes on.

WE are the ones hunting, jumping, eventing and doing masses of roadwork on our barefooters, sugar sensitive or not.

So please stop being offensive.
 
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englund said:
The problem is on this forum its all brown rice and sandals the fact is i say it like it is take it or leave it i dont care. Information on this site is taken seriously by novice owners and therefore needs to be justified.

Once again whats the actual science behind changing the diet? so far all weve gained is that if its a crappy diet it should be changed. That does not explain the science.

Polite notice I am very aware how blunt I am maybe I will get the answers im looking for now.
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actually a friend of mine posted a thread on help for a tb with feet issues yesterday and she and I asked a series of questions about diet and other questions in a calm and polite way and we had all the help we could have asked for AND more! There really is no need to shout and be blunt.

Sometimes there doesn't need to be "science" (although if you google I think you'll find it). If a lot of people say they had a lame unshod/barefoot horse and they took molasses/sugar out of the diet and the horse became sound, is that really not good enough for you to tweak what you are feeding and having a go?
 
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AprilBlossom said:
It's not Englund, there are many heated discussions and differing opinions.
In every post I have read from you, you have given a tone that your opinion is gospel, and anyone who disagrees must be naive or novice. You'll do well to eat a slice of humble pie - it'll go nicely with brown rice ;)

And I like sandals, flip flops are my fave!
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*snorts* haha

I too have been reading through Englunds past posts, bit of a grump aren't they?

Lighten up Englund, people on this forum are lovely really :D sorry I didn't give you the perfect scientific answer you were looking for, but there's really no need to shout! I can read lower case just as well as capitals! ;)
 
TigerTail said:
[]
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Nice :rolleyes:

Are you directing that at me?

If you are, you are wasting your breath.
I too, couldn't give a toot what title it is given, if a horse wears no shoes it is unshod, or barefoot, in the most literal sense. :)
 
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cptrayes said:
I doubt if you are feeding a "good" diet. An expensive one maybe. A branded and marketed one maybe. But a "good" diet is lots of fibre and no molasses (moglo) and correct mineral balancing tailored to your own forage and grazing.


There is plenty of science. Check out insulin resistance in horses and look at human type II diabetes which is very similar. The two are even treated with the same drugs.

Check your white bag labels. I'll bet your feed has added molasses in it.

If your horses are as sensitive to that as one of mine is, and many others are, then you will not succeed with barefoot until you remove it.
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What has insulin resistance got to do with removing the shoes. You are not reading my question properly. I KNOW feeding a crap diet will effect horses with or with out shoes. I want to know specifically why it has to change when you go barefoot and none of you can answer this.
 
Enfys said:
Nice :rolleyes:

Are you directing that at me?

If you are, you are wasting your breath.
I too, couldn't give a toot what title it is given, if a horse wears no shoes it is unshod, or barefoot, in the most literal sense. :)
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I think Tigertail was just covering herself in case the whole barefoot/unshod debate kicked off again.

I don't know about anyone else, but I am soooo bored of these barefoot threads, just do what works for you, and do your research if you want to do it...
 
cptrayes said:
Oh boy you really know how to get people to help you, don't you?

I have given you the science. Get off your backside and go and research insulin resistance in horses and type II diabetes in humans and read the white labels on those expensive branded bags you get your feed in.


Can we also clarify here?

YOU are the one with two horses who cannot even work in an arena, they are so sore without shoes on.

WE are the ones hunting, jumping, eventing and doing masses of roadwork on our barefooters, sugar sensitive or not.

So please stop being offensive.
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You ar not listening - the soreness is due to the shoes being ripped off, the horn was of good quality before farrier hashed it. they are fed a mineral balanced diet suitable for their needs. I am a qualified instructor and worked for the ILPH for several years so get off your high horse.

Insulin levels are nothing to do with barefoot shoeing but correct diet.

So if the diet is correct in the first place WHY CHANGE THE DIET WHEN YOU GO BAREFOOT - QUESTION STILL UNANSWERED BUT TEMPERS FLARING AS YOU CANNOT JUSTIFY YOURSELF.
 
Because a lot of shod horses have low grade lamintus, by removing the shoes you will see the full extent of what the shoes have been hiding. By reducing sugar intake as it lowers the lamintus and sensitivity in the foot.
 
englund said:
THIS IMPLIES MOST PEOPLE FEED A CRAPPY DIET WHICH I DONT THINK IS TRUE, I USE ONLY TOP BRANDS IN CORRECT QUANTITIES. SO APART FROM THOSE THAT MAYBE FEED A POOR DIET WHATS THE SCIENCE BEHIND CHANGING THE DIET - QUESTION STILL NOT ANSWERED
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Is it necessary to shout? Please try to stay calm.
If your mind is closed please don't waste our time.
Diet for horses fed conventionally includes cereals and sugars and starches. Many brands of feeds use mins and vits at such levels, as to require a horse to eat massive quantities, just look at some of the fortified chaffs......... and "pasture mixes"
Horses fed by people interested in riding horses unshod is high fibre lo sugar and a balanced mineral intake, micronised linseed is used for energy and joint mobility and good skin health, magnesium helps to balance the lack of Mg in UK soils.
 
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englund said:
What has insulin resistance got to do with removing the shoes. You are not reading my question properly. I KNOW feeding a crap diet will effect horses with or with out shoes. I want to know specifically why it has to change when you go barefoot and none of you can answer this.
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OK, now you are coming across as a bit thick.

Shoes mask sore feet, as you have found out for yourself. Both your horses have feet so sore that you cannot even ride them on a soft surface.

So if you have been feeding a diet which is suboptimal for that horse, you will need to change the diet if it is to work comfortably without shoes.

The same diet change while in shoes will improve foot quality. It might have helped you not reach a situation where you have been forced into shoelessness because neither of your two horses have sufficient foot to nail a shoe to.

Plenty of horses move to barefoot with no diet change. Plenty of horses are fed a great high fibre/low carb diet in shoes. This isn't really a shoe thing, it just shows up badly in certain susceptible horses, of which you seem to have two, when you take off the shoes.

You might also think of testing both your horses for Insulin Resistance and for Cushings, to try to find out if there is a metabolic reason why they have such poor foot quality if you think their diet is good.

And are you going to tell us what their diet is, so that we can advise any changes we think you would be wise to make?

Or are we all wasting our time here?
 
Jeeeez! You are on my UI list next time I go on the laptop - what a load of unrequired getting your knickers in a twist - you're taking a sentence way too literally. Just because lots of people may tweak a diet if shoes come off, not all will.
Your question doesn't really have an answer.
 
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