Why does your horse have to change diet when shoes come off? makes no sense.

englund said:
You ar not listening - the soreness is due to the shoes being ripped off, the horn was of good quality before farrier hashed it.
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Rubbish! You said on a previous thread that your farrier could not get shoes on as there was not enough hoof to nail to. This was not caused by one trim!

englund said:
they are fed a mineral balanced diet suitable for their needs.
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What are they fed? Mineral balanced plus what? Mineral balance to what?



englund said:
I am a qualified instructor and worked for the ILPH for several years so get off your high horse.
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Sigh.


englund said:
Insulin levels are nothing to do with barefoot shoeing but correct diet.
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Correct, that is what I have been saying.

englund said:
So if the diet is correct in the first place WHY CHANGE THE DIET WHEN YOU GO BAREFOOT - QUESTION STILL UNANSWERED BUT TEMPERS FLARING AS YOU CANNOT JUSTIFY YOURSELF.
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If the diet is correct in the first place then you will not have horses which are so sore just because they do not have shoes on that they cannot even work in a soft dressage arena.

WHAT ARE YOU FEEDING?


.
 
galaxy said:
actually a friend of mine posted a thread on help for a tb with feet issues yesterday and she and I asked a series of questions about diet and other questions in a calm and polite way and we had all the help we could have asked for AND more! There really is no need to shout and be blunt.

Sometimes there doesn't need to be "science" (although if you google I think you'll find it). If a lot of people say they had a lame unshod/barefoot horse and they took molasses/sugar out of the diet and the horse became sound, is that really not good enough for you to tweak what you are feeding and having a go?
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I understand what you are saying and thank you for your reply
 
Many big feed companies are actually now developing molasses free feeds and specifically marketing them that way. (Dengie, Equilibrium) Why do you think they would be doing that is if there is no science behind it?

By the way my horse is shod with no issues thankfully. I just take interest in current feeding news/science.
 
You change the horses diet for barefoot as you need to find what works for your horse to grow a strong hoof, simple. Not so simple is working out what works for your horse.
My horses are fine with grass but the feed i use has low sugar and low starch. If i feed mollasses to 1 of mine he gets very sore on his feet within a day, so that rules out comercial mixes for him. I have to check everything for it including licks which all seem to have it in so i don't buy any as i don't want to risk it. I also can't feed him any chops or chaffs as again he gets sore on his feet. I have learnt this by trial and error.
Let your horses tell you what they need and you will get there. No science involved as far as my horses are concerned even though i know there is alot of science and investigation gone into the barefoot feeding as a subject, which i am grateful of as it has helped me out in the past.
 
Mine is shod in front but I still feed a hoof friendly diet (low sugar, high fibre, restricted grass, right supps).

I don't think that its that barefoot horses need a different diet - just that a lot of shod horses are fed a terrible diet that becomes evident when shoes taken off ;)

IMO all horses should get a low sugar, fibre based diet regardless.
 
cptrayes said:
Rubbish! You said on a previous thread that your farrier could not get shoes on as there was not enough hoof to nail to. This was not caused by one trim!




What are they fed? Mineral balanced plus what? Mineral balance to what?





Sigh.




Correct, that is what I have been saying.



If the diet is correct in the first place then you will not have horses which are so sore just because they do not have shoes on that they cannot even work in a soft dressage arena.

WHAT ARE YOU FEEDING?
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No cocked up in 3 trims actually, if you would like to know what i feed may i ask your horse nutrition qualifications as obviously you feel you are an expert in this field and we could all benefit from your experience.
 
micki said:
You change the horses diet for barefoot as you need to find what works for your horse to grow a strong hoof, simple. Not so simple is working out what works for your horse.
My horses are fine with grass but the feed i use has low sugar and low starch. If i feed mollasses to 1 of mine he gets very sore on his feet within a day, so that rules out comercial mixes for him. I have to check everything for it including licks which all seem to have it in so i don't buy any as i don't want to risk it. I also can't feed him any chops or chaffs as again he gets sore on his feet. I have learnt this by trial and error.
Let your horses tell you what they need and you will get there. No science involved as far as my horses are concerned even though i know there is alot of science and investigation gone into the barefoot feeding as a subject, which i am grateful of as it has helped me out in the past.
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Thank you sensible advice
 
For my part I would like to add that I have in the past been one of the my horse could never cope without shoes brigade.
I fed what I considered to be the best diet for my horse. I believed everything I read on the pretty bags of expensive balancers etc and yes my horse did look fab!
BUT when the farrier came every 7 weeks to shoe him he would have to do each hoof in turn because his feet were so sensitive. This fact alone added to my belief in the concept that he could never be without his shoes. And so on and so on.....Until I allowed myself to consider that maybe I wasn't doing what was best for my horse and that there might be something in this whole barefoot thing.
I have given the diet recommended so frequently on here a chance and consulted with a more open minded farrier. I cannot say with any "scientific" proof that my horses feet are any healthier, stronger, etc but all the visual evidence I can see (and my farrier, friends and yard owner) is so far all the evidence that I need.
The fact that last week when my farrier came to replace some of his temporary plastic shoes he could comfortably stand barefoot on concrete was also a massive step forwards for him.
We still have to make the final leap to totally bare (hopefully later this week) and I am prepared for it not to be plain sailing. But, I am confident enough to say that had I not addressed his diet and been open minded to the suggestions made by the helpful friendly people on here that taking my boys shoes off at all would definatley still not be an option for me.
 
acw295 said:
Mine is shod in front but I still feed a hoof friendly diet (low sugar, high fibre, restricted grass, right supps).

I don't think that its that barefoot horses need a different diet - just that a lot of shod horses are fed a terrible diet that becomes evident when shoes taken off ;)

IMO all horses should get a low sugar, fibre based diet regardless.
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Thank you for your answer
 
Enough. Englund when you want to know how to get any horse that comes to you, no matter how bad its feet are and even after it has been decided to put it down, sound and in full work without shoes on, come back to us and we will all help you.

Meanwhile, congratulations, you are the nastiest person I have ever communicated with on this forum and by heavens that's saying something.
 
englund said:
What has insulin resistance got to do with removing the shoes. You are not reading my question properly. I KNOW feeding a crap diet will effect horses with or with out shoes. I want to know specifically why it has to change when you go barefoot and none of you can answer this.
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Hi. I don't think that a horse's diet should change when the shoes come off - I think the diet should be the same when they are shod - low sugar,low starch, high fibre. What people are trying to say is that if a horse had poor feet when it was shod, then the diet should have been changed then to a more suitable one back then - poor hooves, shod or not are trying to tell you something and it's more than possible that this is diet related. It could be that had you fed your horses a low sugar, high fibre feed when they were shod, then their hooves would not have been poor and you would not have had to remove the shoes. But generally, people don't change the diet until they hit problems and by that time the feet are in a mess. Most bags of "complete" horse feed contain high levels of sugar and starch which some horses can't tolerate and this shows in the condition of their feet.

I hope you take some notice as the advice I took from this forum from the likes of Oberon, CPT and Tigertail means that I have a working unshod TB with no soreness. And I too, was sceptical.....
 
englund said:
No cocked up in 3 trims actually,
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If you stuck to one story we might have a better clue how to advise you. From your original thread:


englund said:
Not by choice but circumstance I have decided to have 2 horses go unshod.

Shoes kept being pulled off so farrier has nowhere to nail shoes anymore. Farrier in my opinion did trim too much in first place as these are big dressage horses so need weight bearing hooves.

Every time shoes pulled off less and less hoof remained and poor horses very foot sore.

Farrier said leave until hooves grow back so he has space to nail on shoe. This happened two weeks ago, both horses are foot sore on hard ground but look sound in their fields. I cannot ride either as not sound in the school.
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It is not normal for a shoe pulled off by the horse to take a chunk of foot with it. I think you are blaming the farrier unfairly. That only happens when the foot is poor quality in the first place. It is extremely abnormal for a horse even with signifant hoof wall loss to be so sore that it cannot even school in a soft arena. Your horses feet are not healthy, and if I were you I would be trying to find out why.
 
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AprilBlossom said:
Jeeeez! You are on my UI list next time I go on the laptop - what a load of unrequired getting your knickers in a twist - you're taking a sentence way too literally. Just because lots of people may tweak a diet if shoes come off, not all will.
Your question doesn't really have an answer.
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I must admit I am a bit literal, terrible character defect in some peoples opinion but we are getting somewhere now.

From what I can gather if you feed a bad diet it will show in some shape or form when shoes come off - not sure that the diet is 100% responsible for this as bad shoeing, conformation defects ect will also cause problems when shoes come off.

You do not need to change diet if it is good but tweak if needs be which does completely agree with my question that you dont need to change diet just because shoes come off.

Thanks to all those that replied some were very useful, others, well at least you replied x x
 
cptrayes said:
If you stuck to one story we might have a better clue how to advise you. From your original thread:





It is not normal for a shoe pulled off by the horse to take a chunk of foot with it. I think you are blaming the farrier unfairly. That only happens when the foot is poor quality in the first place. It is extremely abnormal for a horse even with signifance hoof wall loss to be so sore that it cannot even school in a soft arena. Your horses feet are not healthy, and if I were you I would be trying to find out why.
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It does happen especially with very big horses. I never mentioned in previous thread that it was over a course of time silly me should have gone ABC.

SO wheres the qualifications????
 
englund said:
No cocked up in 3 trims actually, if you would like to know what i feed may i ask your horse nutrition qualifications as obviously you feel you are an expert in this field and we could all benefit from your experience.
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englund you don't come across as a person who listens to anyone, most of us do benefit from people like cptrayes, but then most of us are open to other people's views.
I would be interested to know why you posted on here, if it was to annoy and upset many reasonable and generally helpful people, then you have succeeded.
 
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Englund - you say you are an instructor - I take it that's BHS qualified? Anybody can post that on a forum if they so wish, so why are you so interested in other peoples qualifications?
 
I was covering my back re the bf/ shod comment ;)

""t does happen especially with very big horses""

The size or breed of the horse is entirely irrelevant when it comes to hoof health, except for in practitioners minds so often a tb with 'bad feet'is actually just a lazy farrier/trimmer.

OP it sounds like your horses have a serious problem tbh, your reluctance to post their diet is a shame as those of us who have spent hours and hours reading and researching might just come up with a little nugget of info uv not come across which could be the missing piece of the puzzle for your horses, and obviously their welfare comes first....right? Best of luck with them.
 
englund said:
Thanks for all the answers especially the ones that I asked for.

This is such a fun forum, reel em in ha ha
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I think you'll find cptrayes et al have the last laugh, after all they are the ones with sound horses.

I also think you'll find cptrayes has the same number of equine nutrition qualifications as most of the 'nutritionists' that work for the 'big name brand' feed companies.
 
Englund I have owned a string of 17+ handers over the years, and currently have two. It is NOT normal for a healthy foot to lose a chunk of hoof wall when they pull off a shoe. Especially not to the point where it is impossible to get a shoe back on. And certainly not TWO HORSES at the same time! You have got something going wrong, why can't you accept it?

I don't have any qualifications to advise on nutrition, just plenty of experience of getting difficult barefoot horses to rock crunching performance levels. Have you even looked at your white bag labels or do you just trust the big brand name on the front?

Why are you shy of telling us what you are actually feeding if it is so perfect as you assure us all?
 
Miss L Toe said:
englund you don't come accross as a person who listens to anyone, most of us do benefit from people like cptrayes, but then most of us are open to other people's views.
I would be interested to know why you posted on here, if it was to annoy and upset many reasonable and generally helpful people, then you have succeeded.
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Take a chill pill, all I wanted to know was the science behind the diet of bare foot shoeing (non shoeing to be precise) and the only ones to get excited are the ones who cannot justify it.

Thankfully ive had some very usefull emails unfortunately not confirming you have to change the diet (as I thought) so theres still no science behind it. yes theres science about giving a good diet to shod/unshod horses but nothing that says you have to change the diet of a horse who goes barefoot as a matter of course.
 
englund said:
yes theres science about giving a good diet to shod/unshod horses but nothing that says you have to change the diet of a horse who goes barefoot as a matter of course.
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Well done Englund, you got there in the end.

I'll eat my hat if your two are among the horses that can do barefoot unbooted without a diet change though. Good luck.
 
englund said:
Take a chill pill, all I wanted to know was the science behind the diet of bare foot shoeing (non shoeing to be precise) and the only ones to get excited are the ones who cannot justify it.

Thankfully ive had some very usefull emails unfortunately not confirming you have to change the diet (as I thought) so theres still no science behind it. yes theres science about giving a good diet to shod/unshod horses but nothing that says you have to change the diet of a horse who goes barefoot as a matter of course.
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You were the one who sounded like you needed to chill! But thankfully now you've had all these e-mails in such a short time from all those lovely people who have confirmed to you that you know it all nobody, will ever need to give you any advice of any sort ever again. Wow, it must be amazing to be as knowledgeable as you - I'm sure we're all so jealous.

Now where's that brown rice.......
 
englund said:
Take a chill pill, all I wanted to know was the science behind the diet of bare foot shoeing (non shoeing to be precise) and the only ones to get excited are the ones who cannot justify it.

Thankfully ive had some very usefull emails unfortunately not confirming you have to change the diet (as I thought) so theres still no science behind it. yes theres science about giving a good diet to shod/unshod horses but nothing that says you have to change the diet of a horse who goes barefoot as a matter of course.
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I would have thought that was common sense! I have just understood the original question, which being that basic, completely passed me by, I thought it was more complex than I originally understood it.

Obviously you assess each horse individually, and not automatically change the diet just because you are going barefoot. But an improved diet often (not always!!) goes hand in hand with going barefoot and opening your eyes to improved horse care, as this is what happened to me.
 
OP, I don't think anyone's saying that everyone has to change their horses' diets when their shoes come off, as a matter of course. It's quite possible that the diet's already fine.

However what does seem to be being suggested, is that your horses have problems which could be rectified with a better diet. You don't seem open to this suggestion, which is a shame, especially for your horses.
 
cptrayes said:
Englund I have owned a string of 17+ handers over the years, and currently have two. It is NOT normal for a healthy foot to lose a chunk of hoof wall when they pull off a shoe. Especially not to the point where it is impossible to get a shoe back on. And certainly not TWO HORSES at the same time! You have got something going wrong, why can't you accept it?

I don't have any qualifications to advise on nutrition, just plenty of experience of getting difficult barefoot horses to rock crunching performance levels. Have you even looked at your white bag labels or do you just trust the big brand name on the front?

Why are you shy of telling us what you are actually feeding if it is so perfect as you assure us all?
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It wont matter what i tell you i feed you will have some clever answer to it, thats obvious now.

Yes and lightening cant strike in the same place twice.

Thank you very much for your answers and confirming your lack of nutritional qualifications (no shame in that, most people are not qualified) but to tell an unqualified person what I am feeding my horses seems a bit useless, bit like going to a plumber for a tooth ache problem, but thanks for the offer. You are more than welcome to reply if you would like but I feel i have got the answers I need from you Thanks.
 
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