Why does your horse have to change diet when shoes come off? makes no sense.

[Miss L Toe]

Take a chill pill, all I wanted to know was the science behind the diet of bare foot shoeing (non shoeing to be precise) and the only ones to get excited are the ones who cannot justify it.

Thankfully ive had some very usefull emails unfortunately not confirming you have to change the diet (as I thought) so theres still no science behind it. yes theres science about giving a good diet to shod/unshod horses but nothing that says you have to change the diet of a horse who goes barefoot as a matter of course.

You are coming across as a very confused person, but I don't think we will be losing sleep over your shortcomings.

 

[SuseP]

Words fail me.

 

[dressagelove]

You are coming across as a very confused person, but I don't think we will be losing sleep over your shortcomings.

I'm just concerned that this person is a qualified instructor? ..... Not very open minded for someone teaching others...

 

[Holly Hocks]

Englund - CPT has a number of horses working barefoot without sore feet and with fantastic hooves - I think she is more than qualified to be able to impart advice. She has helped myself and a number of other people to take the shoes off their horses and return to work. She has sound, hard-working unshod horses, and you don't. Take her advice - she may well have the answer you are finding so hard to accept.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I'm just concerned that this person is a qualified instructor? ..... Not very open minded for someone teaching others...

My thoughts exactly....

 

[flirtygerty]

Personally I think Englunds horses could well be welfare cases, one with poor feet, unlucky, two? sheer carelessness

 

[Shysmum]

TROLL ????

 

[FionaM12]

It wont matter what i tell you i feed you will have some clever answer to it, thats obvious now.

Well, yes, don't we all want intelligent, informed (or "clever" if you prefer) answers or advice?

 

[FionaM12]

TROLL ????

Yep. Think you're right. Going to a lot of trouble to wind people up and succeeding, too.

 

[Enfys]

I think Tigertail was just covering herself in case the whole barefoot/unshod debate kicked off again. I was agreeing with Tigertail. I probably didn't put in enough smileys to signify the fact. The written word is so easy to misconstrue at times isn't it? More smileys inserted

QUOTE]

 

[englund]

Why do barefoot people get so assy? Ive read previous barefoot posts by other people and you all act the same towards the person starting the thread, bitchy.

You are all very click click and to the people who called me TROLL you write to me like im your friend when i use my other logins, yes other bloody logins you plonkers.


BACK AT YOU TROLLS. I will use other logins from now on, be intersting if youve sussed it out yet, doubt it.

Comes to something when you cant ask a simple question how sad you are.

I wont lose sleep over it, guaranteed.

 

[Queenbee]

What has insulin resistance got to do with removing the shoes. You are not reading my question properly. I KNOW feeding a crap diet will effect horses with or with out shoes. I want to know specifically why it has to change when you go barefoot and none of you can answer this.

So you haven't heard of sugars causing Laminitis? Sugar have a direct doorway to the hoof... in a bad way! Perhaps if you are too inexperienced with dealing with adjusting the care, management and diet of your horse in order that the quality of their hoof improves so they don't walk around crippled you should send them to these people who are very experienced and if you use the search engine on here (although god knows why you would, you obviously can't google!) you will read fantastic things about their achievements with rehabilitation cases. They will send your horses back to you so they can actually WALK, and they will adjust the diet for you and send you back with an easy to understand and read set of instructions regarding feed and care regime.

http://rockleyfarm.co.uk/

 

[SillyFilly]

What a complete a**e you are! YOU' VE clearly put those horses in the position they are in. YOU cant admit youve not been doing things right as far as thier feet go

 

[rhino]

Oh dear OP, you're the one who has been being 'arsey' since the start of the thread A fair few posters who have responded are neither particularly pro or anti barefoot, just aghast or amused at your total lack of being able to adequately express yourself.

I have also reported you as it is against forum t&c's to have multiple usernames if used inappropriately. Lets hope you have hidden your IP well or you may find all your usernames being banned

 

[SillyFilly]

Stupid phone......YOU now cant admit that point.....CPT shouldnt even bother trying to pass on wisdom in this matter to you....YOU dont deserve the help...poor horses, yes, but then thats YOUR problem as you cant take helpful advice....how rude do you think you need to be to get answers?

I reckon you KNOW the labels on your feed sack will prove CPT's point and thats why you wont divulge the information....

God...I'd die if I booked an instructor with such an arrogant, ignorant attitude....

 

[Queenbee]

It does happen especially with very big horses. I never mentioned in previous thread that it was over a course of time silly me should have gone ABC.

SO wheres the qualifications????

Englund, I had a shire, fed on fibre and barley... she never lost her shoes or had bad hooves...cant get bigger than her! Or TB's many people on here have switched to what is labelled a BF diet and hoof quality has improved dramatically. Perhaps you could post some pictures of your horses hooves to show the damage and list what you feed them, there are a number of vets, nutritionalists, farriers and trimmers on here (qualified at that) you will obviously not trust the word of your farrier, perhaps they could give you some guidance. I assume this butcher of a farrier has been sacked and you are getting a new one since he damaged your horses?

 

[Oberon]

Right can some one clear this up as it is not logical. Horses hooves grow with or without shoes so why change the diet when shoes are removed?

Give me the science not hearsay mumbo jumbo.

You will struggle with the science as it is mostly all mumbo jumbo.

Feed companies use balancing software according the recommendations made by the NRC (2007).

Most of the advice regarding nutrition for horses and the research comes from the 1970s and 1980s or based on theory from experimentation with other mammals or just pure conjecture.

For example - Vitamin A was studied extensively in horses and so feed companies regularly over supplement that. Lysine is one of the most researched essential amino acid - so that is added in most things......

Hence feeding horses is more an art than a science.

You can look at the research being done by Dr Katy Watts on different types of grasses and how non structural carbohydrates (NSCs) affect horses.
http://www.safergrass.org/articles.html

You can look at the recommendations by Dr Kellon on how to rebalance diet.
http://www.drkellon.com/

You can look at the research by Dr Chris Pollitt on laminitis and hooves

http://www.laminitisresearch.org/chrispollitt_publications1.htm

To summarise his work - he induced acute laminitis in Standardbreds and then euthanised them at various stages.

He found that even those horses who were euthanised BEFORE showing any acute symptoms still showed damage to the laminae.
He has concluded that the death of the fibre fermenting bacteria in the hind gut releases toxins, which form enzymes that 'eat' the laminae and cause it to fail.

Why does this happen? We still have no freaking clue......

But it's a start .

So how does this relate hooves in terms of diet?

Years ago SOME horses could go barefoot easily and SOME couldn't.

We didn't know why.

Then people started experimenting with diet and started feeding 'Magic Barefoot Powder' (seaweed, linseed and brewer's yeast) rather than commercial mixes.

Horses mostly responded well to this...but some still struggled.

Then people started looking at mineral balancing. Inspired by the dairy industry in the US, who would demand an analysis before parting with cash on hay and then would feed a mineral supplement specially made to fit the hay they'd just bought.

And suddenly those horses who were really difficult to keep barefoot, always needed boots to be ridden, and went footy in the spring - became happy and sound!

As far as I am aware - there is no current scientific evidence to support this...but merely thousands of horse owners all over the world who have found it's helped their horses.

The Cushings and Insulin Resistance Yahoo Group has many files of information about this.

So why does diet mean 'more' to barefoot horses than shod?

Have you noticed that shod hooves are colder and grow slower than barefoot?

I can waffle on about the hoof mechanism and loading versus unloading but in simple terms, as well as lifting the hooves off the floor, the shoes decrease the circulation (and additionally nerve function - but that is currently still a theory) and therefore provide an anaesthetic effect. Inflammation of the laminae will be reduced if blood supply is reduced (which is why cryotherapy is recommended for laminitis cause by a systemic inflammatory disease).

I have witnessed a horse with obvious insulin resistance potter around on sore bare hooves and then stride out sound and happy ten minutes later when shoes are put on. Horse is still insulin resistant and hooves are still sick - but he doesn't feel it any more.

The answer for you (IMO) is that if your horse has an appropriate diet (for them) and has no problems - then the diet doesn't need to change.

But knowing that the hooves are directly affected by diet (as pointed out by the researchers listed above) then it is wise to review if a horse IS having problems - shiny coat or not.

I can appreciate your frustration and that you may feel patronised - but we are giving advice blindly on a forum and that comes with dangers.

You will find the Barefoot Taliban on HHO take the safety and comfort of the other poster's horses very seriously and always give as much advice as possible to make life without shoes painless.

No one wants to hear about lame horses gimping about - so we bang on about diet to try and prevent that because it is simply not necessary for horses to suffer when a simple tinker with diet can help.

Hope this helps

 

[POLLDARK]

Right can some one clear this up as it is not logical. Horses hooves grow with or without shoes so why change the diet when shoes are removed?

Give me the science not hearsay mumbo jumbo.

Can't say I know any science on it. My New Forest had his shoes removed last autumn, no diet change just his usual grass & hay, did road work the first day. Didn't even blink, he just carried on & never looked back. He does a mixture of road, track & field work, road work of about 6 miles a week & it doesn't bother him . The farrier who comes to one of the others thinks it is amazing, his feet are really good, well shaped & strong. No one supplements Zebra & they cover a lot of territory in a day. Having said that some horses may require extra I really can't say, you would need a really big , double blind, study to really tell. All I can know is what my experience with the Newfie shows me.

 

[Erin]

Its very simple really.

A good diet is a good diet regardless of what you choose to put on your horses feet.

You feed the horse what it needs, not what a feed company tells you it needs.

But, like people, some horses are more sensitive to their diet.
Im sure most of us know someone who can eat what they like and stay slim with good skin and hair? But I know if I just ate what I wanted Id be huge with bad skin!

 

[dressagelove]

Why do barefoot people get so assy? Ive read previous barefoot posts by other people and you all act the same towards the person starting the thread, bitchy.

You are all very click click and to the people who called me TROLL you write to me like im your friend when i use my other logins, yes other bloody logins you plonkers.


BACK AT YOU TROLLS. I will use other logins from now on, be intersting if youve sussed it out yet, doubt it.

Comes to something when you cant ask a simple question how sad you are.

I wont lose sleep over it, guaranteed.

You really are a bit of a loon aren't you? As they say, there is nout queerer than folk... how bizarre! I agree with whoever recommended you find psychological help m'dear!

 

[galaxy]

No, the barefooters on this forum are not 'arsey' when asked advice, the only reason there have been issues on this thread is your tone and outright rudeness! Have a look on the 'tb with bad feet' thread from sat and you'll see no one have any issues or debate!!!

Oh and advise can be given from people with oodles if experience and no qualifications!!! Of course it can! I also BHS qualified but would never say no to a lesson with someone unqualified who competes ( and therefore is much more experienced) than me! How daft would that be???? Would bf shooting myself in the foot just as you are now.

 

[Cedars]

As far as I see it, it's very simple.

There is evidence that shoes can damage a horse's hoof/leg. There is also evidence that shoes cost a lot of money!

Therefore, ideally, all horses would be unshod (sorry, they're not barefoot, they don't have feet *rolls eyes*).

To maintain an unshod horse, keeping them sound and happy, ideally they'd get everything they need naturally out of their forage. However this isn't necessarily the case. As I see it, there are two reasons for altering a diet: 1. The horse gets too little from its natural forage or 2. Modern easy feeding isn't quite right for the hoof.

Good hoof quality should be important to all owners, unshod or shod. We have 4 on our yard - 3 shod, 1 unshod. I monitor their hooves carefully and feed as appropriate. If your horse is fed a hoof friendly diet when shod, problems like minimal growth, cracks etc shouldn't exist - and also, when you then go unshod, nothing should need to change.

Whilst its cheaper and probably better for horses to go unshod, there are many reasons why shoes are suitable and I don't object to their usage at all. Some horses do not suit being unshod and I totally understand that owners don't wish to spend hours a day measuring and mixing lotions and potions when it would just be easier to lob some shoes on and be done with it.

I can only comment on my own horse. At the moment, she is 3. She gets from the field what she needs to keep her hooves happy. When she comes into work, I hope this will stay the same. If it doesn't, I will make small changes to her diet that may help her. If she remains unhappy, I will feel absolutely no guilt in giving her shoes. No guilt at all. I will continue to feed an appropriate diet to keep her hooves strong and sound so that shoeing benefits her, rather than patches her up and keeps her sound.

OP, I don't appreciate the way you've spoken to people on this thread. I equally think that the barefoot Taliban are sometimes annoying and preachy - however, cptrayes has only ever been helpful when I've asked for help. You've clearly reached some difficulties with your horses, and perhaps now is the time to look at alternatives? What can you lose by trying them. Even if you just improve their diet so they can then retain shoes again.

A final point on the 'needing scientific proof' front. I'm a scientist in my heart. I need proof. However, our eventer sees a acupressure lady once a month. There is NO discernible science behind it!!!!! And as far as I can see, she turns up, pokes him, charges us £50 and leaves. But by god, there is a hell of a difference in the horse. So much so, that I've accepted that he's all the proof I need. It's working for our pony - that's all I need.

 

[cptrayes]

Thank you very much for your answers and confirming your lack of nutritional qualifications (no shame in that, most people are not qualified) but to tell an unqualified person what I am feeding my horses seems a bit useless, bit like going to a plumber for a tooth ache problem, but thanks for the offer. You are more than welcome to reply if you would like but I feel i have got the answers I need from you Thanks.

I'm the one who'll be hunting on a barefoot horse on Saturday Englund, while you are watching your paddock ornaments limp on a soft field.

 

[Clava]

Thank you very much for your answers and confirming your lack of nutritional qualifications (no shame in that, most people are not qualified) but to tell an unqualified person what I am feeding my horses seems a bit useless, bit like going to a plumber for a tooth ache problem, but thanks for the offer. You are more than welcome to reply if you would like but I feel i have got the answers I need from you Thanks.

You would be telling a whole forum not just an unqualified person, and you would get a varied view of lots of opinions (which is why people usually post threads) and from that you may learn something. The fact that you refuse to post your perfect diet just leads everyone to assume that you are hiding something.

 

[pines of rome]

I really can not understand why people ask the experienced barefooters a question and then attack them when they don,t like the answer!
My horse is barefoot and I have had good helpful advice from those who have done it with good results, so basically don,t bother asking if you are not prepared to listen!

 

[Shanny_mare]

Oberon's reply sums everything up perfectly, at least for me There is no need to change a horse's diet just because it is unshod/barefoot, if its current diet is working well. However, if a horse is suffering hoof problems, and particularly if it has had to have shoes removed because of these, surely it makes sense to look at the whole management of the animal - diet, grazing, farrier etc?

 

[Miss L Toe]

I think englund has been gagged, couldn't happen to a more deserving person, statistically speaking.

 

[brighteyes]

You will struggle with the science as it is mostly all mumbo jumbo.

Feed companies use balancing software according the recommendations made by the NRC (2007).

Most of the advice regarding nutrition for horses and the research comes from the 1970s and 1980s or based on theory from experimentation with other mammals or just pure conjecture.

For example - Vitamin A was studied extensively in horses and so feed companies regularly over supplement that. Lysine is one of the most researched essential amino acid - so that is added in most things......

Hence feeding horses is more an art than a science.

You can look at the research being done by Dr Katy Watts on different types of grasses and how non structural carbohydrates (NSCs) affect horses.
http://www.safergrass.org/articles.html

You can look at the recommendations by Dr Kellon on how to rebalance diet.
http://www.drkellon.com/

You can look at the research by Dr Chris Pollitt on laminitis and hooves

http://www.laminitisresearch.org/chrispollitt_publications1.htm

To summarise his work - he induced acute laminitis in Standardbreds and then euthanised them at various stages.

He found that even those horses who were euthanised BEFORE showing any acute symptoms still showed damage to the laminae.
He has concluded that the death of the fibre fermenting bacteria in the hind gut releases toxins, which form enzymes that 'eat' the laminae and cause it to fail.

Why does this happen? We still have no freaking clue......

But it's a start .

So how does this relate hooves in terms of diet?

Years ago SOME horses could go barefoot easily and SOME couldn't.

We didn't know why.

Then people started experimenting with diet and started feeding 'Magic Barefoot Powder' (seaweed, linseed and brewer's yeast) rather than commercial mixes.

Horses mostly responded well to this...but some still struggled.

Then people started looking at mineral balancing. Inspired by the dairy industry in the US, who would demand an analysis before parting with cash on hay and then would feed a mineral supplement specially made to fit the hay they'd just bought.

And suddenly those horses who were really difficult to keep barefoot, always needed boots to be ridden, and went footy in the spring - became happy and sound!

As far as I am aware - there is no current scientific evidence to support this...but merely thousands of horse owners all over the world who have found it's helped their horses.

The Cushings and Insulin Resistance Yahoo Group has many files of information about this.

So why does diet mean 'more' to barefoot horses than shod?

Have you noticed that shod hooves are colder and grow slower than barefoot?

I can waffle on about the hoof mechanism and loading versus unloading but in simple terms, as well as lifting the hooves off the floor, the shoes decrease the circulation (and additionally nerve function - but that is currently still a theory) and therefore provide an anaesthetic effect. Inflammation of the laminae will be reduced if blood supply is reduced (which is why cryotherapy is recommended for laminitis cause by a systemic inflammatory disease).

I have witnessed a horse with obvious insulin resistance potter around on sore bare hooves and then stride out sound and happy ten minutes later when shoes are put on. Horse is still insulin resistant and hooves are still sick - but he doesn't feel it any more.

The answer for you (IMO) is that if your horse has an appropriate diet (for them) and has no problems - then the diet doesn't need to change.

But knowing that the hooves are directly affected by diet (as pointed out by the researchers listed above) then it is wise to review if a horse IS having problems - shiny coat or not.

I can appreciate your frustration and that you may feel patronised - but we are giving advice blindly on a forum and that comes with dangers.

You will find the Barefoot Taliban on HHO take the safety and comfort of the other poster's horses very seriously and always give as much advice as possible to make life without shoes painless.

No one wants to hear about lame horses gimping about - so we bang on about diet to try and prevent that because it is simply not necessary for horses to suffer when a simple tinker with diet can help.

Hope this helps

Brilliant.

 

[peanut]

actually a friend of mine posted a thread on help for a tb with feet issues yesterday

Please could you help me find this thread (maybe just let me know the username of the poster) as I'd be interested to read it

 

[AmyMay]

Oberon's reply sums everything up perfectly, at least for me There is no need to change a horse's diet just because it is unshod/barefoot, if its current diet is working well. However, if a horse is suffering hoof problems, and particularly if it has had to have shoes removed because of these, surely it makes sense to look at the whole management of the animal - diet, grazing, farrier etc?

I completely agree.