Why don't people let their horses drop off in winter?

Thanks for the replies everyone, some interesting arguments and links. I wish some people would read before posting and not accuse me or anyone else of starving horses in winter. Similarily I asked people who had natives and good doers, so for those saying no they don't let their poor doers drop off because they would look awful... I specifically didn't include them! Also can't remember who it was but I was slated for calling my two 'fatties'. Sorry for any confusion caused, they are not overweight just greedy and quite thick set which is to be expected with their breed.
 
cptrayes said:
I think you may not be familiar with the human research. The issue is not total calorie intake or expenditure. The surprise finding was that if humans have two days a week eating only one 500 calorie meal each of those days, there are significant health benefits no matter what they eat on the other days of the week.

I think it's entirely possible that significant weight loss might 'reset' the metabolism of horses in some way to make it safer for them to be on the fat side in summer. Fasting, of course, is not a good idea for a creature with such a long floppy gut.

I'm certainly happy for my guys to mimic nature and come into the spring grass flush on the lean side.
Click to expand...

No I am familiar with it - like I said it's about stopping the metabolism getting sluggish. I actually did the 5:2 diet for a while, but when I got a more physically demanding job I found my fasting days took too much out of me (I began to feel faint on fasting days when working, and if I restricted them to my weekends, then I struggled with energy levels for riding due to fitting all my work and gym sessions in during the week), so I stopped.

I'lll try and explain what I meant better, as I don't think I articulated it well - when people talk about letting horses 'drop weight', it's a long term (say six month) deterioration in condition and then a six month gain in condition, on a repeated cycle. The human 5:2 diet is functionally different as it's not about losing weight over time, it's about enhancing your metabolic action due to short term feed changes.

The 5:2 diet works well, but if you look at people who binge eat and then starve themselves on a cycle on a longer terms basis, say several weeks at a time, you get very unhealthy metabolic fluctuations - the body becomes more prone to putting on weight etc (will look up the research, it's very interesting). Therefore I struggle to see how this is different to long term losing and gaining weight in horses, certainly more alike than 'dropping off' and the 5:2 diet. Does that make my point clearer? I'm not the most articulate on this subject as it something I approached before I became a student, so never learned the scientific wording etc.
 
khalswitz said:
No I am familiar with it - like I said it's about stopping the metabolism getting sluggish. I actually did the 5:2 diet for a while, but when I got a more physically demanding job I found my fasting days took too much out of me (I began to feel faint on fasting days when working, and if I restricted them to my weekends, then I struggled with energy levels for riding due to fitting all my work and gym sessions in during the week), so I stopped.

I'lll try and explain what I meant better, as I don't think I articulated it well - when people talk about letting horses 'drop weight', it's a long term (say six month) deterioration in condition and then a six month gain in condition, on a repeated cycle. The human 5:2 diet is functionally different as it's not about losing weight over time, it's about enhancing your metabolic action due to short term feed changes.

The 5:2 diet works well, but if you look at people who binge eat and then starve themselves on a cycle on a longer terms basis, say several weeks at a time, you get very unhealthy metabolic fluctuations - the body becomes more prone to putting on weight etc (will look up the research, it's very interesting). Therefore I struggle to see how this is different to long term losing and gaining weight in horses, certainly more alike than 'dropping off' and the 5:2 diet. Does that make my point clearer? I'm not the most articulate on this subject as it something I approached before I became a student, so never learned the scientific wording etc.
Click to expand...

But horses who wieght fluctuates are not always bingeing and fasting sometimes they are working hard and lose wieght as a natural consequence of the conditioning work they do .
And that is natural and healthy things for a horse to do.
I don't there's any evidence that you can compare herbivore and omnivore metabolisms.
 
Goldenstar said:
But horses who wieght fluctuates are not always bingeing and fasting sometimes they are working hard and lose wieght as a natural consequence of the conditioning work they do .
And that is natural and healthy things for a horse to do.
I don't there's any evidence that you can compare herbivore and omnivore metabolisms.
Click to expand...

Once you get past the digestion process, you'd be surprised how similar most mammalian biochemistry is. And I did veterinary science as my degree, so I'm not talking out my bum on that one... There are slight differences but once your foodstuffs have been absorbed the process becomes very similar. Even equine digestion isn't that far removed from human, certainly not compared with ruminants etc, and equine digestion is considered in the same group as human digestion (along with pigs and dogs) when comparing with ruminants, so they are certainly comparable.

I understand SOME aren't binging and fasting, but if you were to use winter as a weight control rather than horses dropping weight to fit condition due to exercise, then to a degree you are forcing your horse to fast over the winter, and for them to be tubs come summer you are allowing then to overeat. So there is a link there.

A very slight weight drop in winter is one thing, but I know some people with natives who let them get hideously fat in summer and they drop right off in winter to look poor. I think that's fine if they're in the wild - but they're not, they can't did better pasture themselves and are expected to work on top. I don't think it's healthy to be yoyoing between fat and thin. I think most horses put on some condition in summer and lose it in winter, but encouraging people to aim to maintain a healthy weight is better than encouraging them to let horses 'drop off' as it can so easily tip into bad management.
 
But why assume people allow their horses to lose wieght byfasting .
fasting= eating no food or extremely little .
It's perfectly possible to get horses and ponies to lose wieght in winter by using the combination of poor quality winter grass and low calorie additional forage ( things like soaked hay and oat straw ).
As long as someone is checking their droppings there's no risk in that .
 
Goldenstar said:
But why assume people allow their horses to lose wieght byfasting .
fasting= eating no food or extremely little .
It's perfectly possible to get horses and ponies to lose wieght in winter by using the combination of poor quality winter grass and low calorie additional forage ( things like soaked hay and oat straw ).
As long as someone is checking their droppings there's no risk in that .
Click to expand...

I agree with you as to that, like I said my horse drops weight TOO easily in winter, but remember it was the cyclic weight gain/loss I objected to. I also think it's healthier to try and maintain a good weight rather than use winter to correct for the summer. Especially when the horse is in work.
 
​
jihadists said:
. I also think it's healthier to try and maintain a good weight rather than use winter to correct for the summer. Especially when the horse is in work.
Click to expand...


I'm not convinced this is the case and I would love to see some research done if it has not been already.

We now know that there are switches in DNA which can be activated and deactivated by environment and exercise. I think it's entirely possible that becoming a bit thin in winter resets a horse DNA switch to make it much safer for the horse to eat spring and summer grass. I don't know if that's the case, but I can easily envisage that it might be.
 
Unfortunately there is difficulty in doing very long term feed trials that produce really meaningful results. Even attracting and maintaining funding for such long term studies can be difficult. Therefore a lot of animal nutrition research is either focused on farm animals (where there is a lot of money to be made) or patchy and can have issues with it. I'm not convinced by anyone who says "the research says this" because a lot of long term studies lack adequate controls or reliability and therefore don't actually prove anything.

I think on this thread people are comparing very different breeds of horses that have been bred for different purposes and thus have different metabolisms. Whilst they have the same biology, I don't think you can manage, say a native pony and an arab or TB in exactly the same way even if they are in exactlyt the same work as they have been bred to cope with different conditions, levels of work and feeding.

Whilst the evidence does seem to suggest that allowing horses/ponies prone to laminitis or being overweight to drop weight over winter can help prevent reocurrences of laminitis, often this is compared to horses that are overweight in winter, rather than those who maintain a healthy weight all year round. If this is the only way you have of managing a good doer then it is obviously better than nothing at all. However, it is not fair to ask the pony to do the same level of work when at extremes of weight.

Horses that are in medium to hard work are often working harder or at higher intensities than they would be in the wild, so they need some kind of extra food to support that. With domestic horses, we are asking them to do things that do not always come naturally to them, and they should be fed in a way that supports this, not the way we think is most natural.

If you look at the ponies on places like Dartmoor and Bodmin Moor, which are arguably kept "naturally"- some do become very poor and may even die over winter. That is obviously not something people want for their "pet" animals.
 
cptrayes said:
​


I'm not convinced this is the case and I would love to see some research done if it has not been already.

We now know that there are switches in DNA which can be activated and deactivated by environment and exercise. I think it's entirely possible that becoming a bit thin in winter resets a horse DNA switch to make it much safer for the horse to eat spring and summer grass. I don't know if that's the case, but I can easily envisage that it might be.
Click to expand...

There has been research done but I can't remember where I read it. I will search my Favourites pages and see if I can find the documentation.

Since reading it I have tried it along with my friends two Welsh ponies and it certainly seems to work
 
Tnavas said:
There has been research done but I can't remember where I read it. I will search my Favourites pages and see if I can find the documentation.

Since reading it I have tried it along with my friends two Welsh ponies and it certainly seems to work
Click to expand...

If love to read it if you can find it Tnavas. You wouldn't be wasting your time :)
 
Mmmm baby was a native do gooder with excessive stress issues from sight and past owner. she was in a field of good grazing but her need for routine meant stri grasing etc was out question. a muzzle would have sent her crazy so kept routine of stabled at night insummer. come winter no rugs at all but fed to weather conditions. If dropped below frezzing hay increased but no rugs. That way she came out of winter a tad low weight wise. A bit
more to it than that but sometimes you have to use nature best way possible
 
pennyturner said:
As a native pony owner, I'm quite amused by the idea that feeding ad-lib haylege is some kind of baseline of acceptable. If mine had as much hay as they were prepared to eat they'd look like the stay-puft marshmallow man!
Having to scour the field foraging in winter does them no harm at all.

But then, a couple of them would get fat just looking at the lichen on the fence posts.
Click to expand...

Same here. My pony was morbidly obese when I got him last Oct, I used the winter to my advantage, he got regular (4 x per day) rations of soaked hay mixed with straw so he had plenty of fibre and didn't feel hungry, a feed balancer to provide his vits, minerals and essential fatty acids, was unrugged and doing daily light/slow work. It worked a treat and by the following summer was at his ideal weight. If he had adlib he would have just stood and eating, with my regime he had to forage round the field between hay feeds.

This winter he is rugged with a lightweight for my convenience as we do more ridden work, but I will not worry if he drops off a bit as he will no doubt gain a little in the spring, at least until the clocks go forwards and I can ride more. No one is suggesting huge weight fluctuation are healthy, just that using the winter can be a helpful tool in the fight to keep good doers healthy.
 
Ours are native types but we don't need to let them lose weight, as they are not allowed to get fat in the first place. I would rather restrict grazing and feed hay in summer than let them get fat. We have a welsh a and a welsh d, both are the right weight. Hubbys shire cross is an extremely good doer but we don't let her stuff herself.
 
cptrayes said:
​


I'm not convinced this is the case and I would love to see some research done if it has not been already.
Click to expand...

Tnavas said:
There has been research done but I can't remember where I read it.
Click to expand...
Yes there was research done fairly recently. I read the report. Very interesting, logical and made a great deal of sense to me. I also can't remember where it was published though, some vet journal but I can't remember which one.
 
If I let my horse 'drop off' in Winter there would be nothing left of him! I have to feed him more in Winter than in Summer. He is very fit and we Hunt so he does need it and is not being fed for the sake of it.
 
rascal said:
Ours are native types but we don't need to let them lose weight, as they are not allowed to get fat in the first place. I would rather restrict grazing and feed hay in summer than let them get fat. We have a welsh a and a welsh d, both are the right weight. Hubbys shire cross is an extremely good doer but we don't let her stuff herself.
Click to expand...

So what if you restrict grazing to less than 1/3 acre per horse all summer, feed soaked hay, exercise for 2hr per day, don't feed hard feed and they still end up over condition score 3 going into winter??
It's not a get out clause for people who can't be bothered!
 
spotty_pony said:
If I let my horse 'drop off' in Winter there would be nothing left of him! I have to feed him more in Winter than in Summer. He is very fit and we Hunt so he does need it and is not being fed for the sake of it.
Click to expand...

Likewise. I struggle to keep weight on mine, she has oats beet and linseed all year round!
 
If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?
 
I'm trying to let my horse drop off weight...!

Usually she drops a good amount of weight in winter but she's been stabled alot this winter on ad-lib hay and straw so she's fat! Going to change bedding soon and start cutting down her feed-its difficult as I've recently sorted out her ulcers so can't leave her without fibre too long.
 
KristmasKat said:
Likewise. I struggle to keep weight on mine, she has oats beet and linseed all year round!
Click to expand...

l'm the same with my ISH horse she lost quite abit of weight & condition after last winter even when she had 3 feeds a day with access to plenty of hay. Our two natives lost abit of weight but maintained their condition. The only thing was they were out 24/7 because we moved yards & there was no stabling. In preparation for this winter we had the stables built & l started feeding that mare alittle earlier & added fibrebeet. When the weather is bad or she's standing at the gate wanting to come in l bring them in which l think has helped because she's looking to have kept her condition on. Every horse is individual & what works with one wont necessarily work for another but l'd rather mine be on the lean side than overweight as its no good for them but if l was concerned l'd contact my vet & talk to a feed nutrientist for advice
 
khalswitz said:
I agree with you as to that, like I said my horse drops weight TOO easily in winter, but remember it was the cyclic weight gain/loss I objected to. I also think it's healthier to try and maintain a good weight rather than use winter to correct for the summer. Especially when the horse is in work.
Click to expand...

But I don't think that is actually what is being discussed is it? It's not about correcting obesity, it's about a "natural" fluctuation in condition. I've read the same study as a couple of other have mentioned - was it not about optimising pituitary function?

Work is an added stress to be considered, for sure. But I don't think we are talking about horses in medium to hard work through the winter, generally speaking. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that our idea of "ideal" or even "normal" weight has become so skewed that we are actually keeping horses fat (metabolically speaking) year 'round now and interfering with aspects we might not even fully understand yet.

Not found the article I wanted but this is interesting, too:http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine-practice/Documents/Obesity_Management.pdf
 
Last edited:
TarrSteps said:
But I don't think that is actually what is being discussed is it? It's not about correcting obesity, it's about a "natural" fluctuation in condition. I've read the same study as a couple of other have mentioned - was it not about optimising pituitary function?

Work is an added stress to be considered, for sure. But I don't think we are talking about horses in medium to hard work through the winter, generally speaking. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that our idea of "ideal" or even "normal" weight has become so skewed that we are actually keeping horses fat (metabolically speaking) year 'round now and interfering with aspects we might not even fully understand yet.

Not found the article I wanted but this is interesting, too:http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine-practice/Documents/Obesity_Management.pdf
Click to expand...

Hormonallly, horses overweight and predisposed to lami associate with high leptin levels - you want reduced leptin production, stimulated by increased exercise. Leptin is produced in adipose tissue, particularly brown, afair.

The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism.

On my phone so can't do any paper research, will do though as it's interesting.
 
khalswitz said:
The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism.
Click to expand...

NO - that WAS NOT the OP's original comment - this is

I see so many threads in feeding about how to maintain weight in winter. I'm completely the opposite, got 2 fatties so I'm perfectly happy to let them lose a bit over winter. Makes my job of keeping them trim in summer a lot easier. Obviously I'm not talking about oldies or poor doers, but people with natives or good doers... Do any of you let your horses naturally lose weight in winter? Surely this is what they do in the wild? (Just to add mine get ad lib haylage but I do not/ will not give them masses of hard feed to maintain weight).

Horses naturally inclined to be overweight ARE better off if allowed to lose weight through the winter - it affects how their bodies deal with the increase in spring grass and the reduced risk of them developing laminitis.

It is what happens in the wild and though those horses may not work for a living - their natural workload does increase through the winter months - they have to travel further to get enough food to survive.

I know it works for the benefit of the horse - since my Clydesdale stopped growing at 5 I'd battled with keeping her weight down. For the past two winters since reading the article about allowing horses to lose weight in winter I have had no problem with keeping her weight under control and to date not a sign of any laminitis for her or her two Welsh pony paddock mates who follow the same regime.
 
khalswitz said:
The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism.

On my phone so can't do any paper research, will do though as it's interesting.
Click to expand...


I don't think I agree with you that it is worse for the horse's health to use winter to drop the weight. It's something that their metabolism has been honed by evolution to deal with. So I doubt very much that it is actually harmful, or that it is preferable to maintain the same weight all year round. . I also, as I have said before, believe it may reset DNA switches to make it safer, irrespective of the weight of the animal at the time, for horses to eat spring grass.

Do you know that the current treatment for extreme insulin resistance is to starve the horse down to what looks like a serious welfare case, and then let it put weight back on?
 
I didn't read the research, Tnavas, I watched my friends horse first hand as it was put through the 'treatment' under close veterinary observation. She was so thin when they called a halt to the starvation that there is no way she could have been turned out without a rug on without getting a visit from the RSPCA.

I think you'll find the research of you Google it, is all to do with hormones being produced by the fat itself. The horse was not huge, but had been left with lumpy hard deposits on the crest and rump from a previous home, and apparently these are what cause the trouble, and they won't go until the horse is rake thin.

It worked, the insulin levels dropped massively and the mare, a brood mare, became fertile again and was put in foal. On weaning, she had developed Cushings, and I believe that there is increasing evidence that IR may be a precursor to full blown Cushings. She had tested negative a year before.
 
Spotsrock said:
If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?
Click to expand...

Generally the weght fluctuation isn't enough to need it for mine. We did have an exception last spring. I have a Dartmoor stallon who is the best doer I've ever seen. He's in an XXW saddle, with a gullet so wide you could saddle a dining room table with it. He normally maintains this shape, more or less, but did drop off with the late spring - enough that I bought him an old XW show saddle for a couple of months until the grass came through.

Generally we expect to see a couple of holes difference on the girth between October and April.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top