Why don't people let their horses drop off in winter?

khalswitz said:
Hormonallly, horses overweight and predisposed to lami associate with high leptin levels - you want reduced leptin production, stimulated by increased exercise. Leptin is produced in adipose tissue, particularly brown, afair.

The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism.

On my phone so can't do any paper research, will do though as it's interesting.
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yes, the leptin level is one of the factors in horses developing EMS etc and the current vetinary advice is reducing weight by a strict diet and exercise programme to manage the condition. Depending upon the horse and circumstances a seasonal reduction in weight can 're-set' the metabolism.

Relying on exercise alone to maintain a steady weight can be quite a high risk strategy - it only takes a domestic crisis or injury at the wrong time of year and you can very very quickly find yourself in a lot of trouble with a good-doer tipping towards laminitis.....
 
I think it's important to note, too, that we are talking about weight fluctuations within a HEALTHY range in otherwise HEALTHY horses. No one is advocating letting the horse get pig fat then turning it into a hat rack, or not supplying basic nutritional needs.

I have a horses living out who actually struggles to maintain his weight more here in winter than he did in Canada, interestingly enough, although I'm sure there are many variables in play, not just climate. He is also very 'immune sensitive', prone to vasculitis, allergic reactions etc. I've found the most useful thing I can do for him going into winter is make sure his NUTRITIONAL needs are being met, not just his caloric ones. A high grade vitamin, an easily digestible fat source, and a small amount of top quality low sugar hard feed, along with his meh quality forage keeps him much healthier. In Canada the general quality of hay was better and there were more options, so the supplement was not needed. My only point is that concentrating on weight to the exclusion of nutrition isn't the way to go either and each situation has to be weighed individually. A 'light' horse isn't necessarily unhealthy and a heavy one isn't necessarily 'well'.

Re changes in saddle fit. . .I'm sure I'll be pilloried for this but it's standard practice in many cases to use pads of varying thickness to even out minor fluctuations in fit. I know this is Just Not Done in this forum but just making the point it works for many. . . .
 
catkin said:
yes, the leptin level is one of the factors in horses developing EMS etc and the current vetinary advice is reducing weight by a strict diet and exercise programme to manage the condition. Depending upon the horse and circumstances a seasonal reduction in weight can 're-set' the metabolism.

Relying on exercise alone to maintain a steady weight can be quite a high risk strategy - it only takes a domestic crisis or injury at the wrong time of year and you can very very quickly find yourself in a lot of trouble with a good-doer tipping towards laminitis.....
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I said exercise and work relevant feeding - I certainly adjust my feeding if my horse gets time off. Common sense, not a risky strategy.

Cptrayes - yes, like I said leptin is produced in adipose tissue, so decreasing leptin levels is done by dropping fat levels. It's why obesity is linked with lami/ems/cushings etc. Also, I know there is evidence re DNA switches etc in humans regarding short term feast and fast, but I've been searching and can't find anything equivalent in seasonal weight change in horses. If you find, I would love to read, but tbh the two situations are so different I'm not sure you can compare them, as I've already said.

I've had natives in the past, including two with history of lami, and with correct management, feeding and workload, I've never had fat ponies is summer or thin in winter. If they dropped too much in winter it would be difficult to allow enough weight gain in summer without them becoming fatties - maintaining weight is much easier. However I am lucky in that we have very good horse grass - poor quality high quantity - so it is much easier to maintain weight, and with the poor doers almost too easy to lose it...
 
Well said TS, that's exactly it!

PS - my saddle fitter agrees with you on the pads for saddle fitting, - but then they have first-hand knowledge of truely fittening up hard-working horses and do similar in that situation too.
 
TarrSteps said:
I think it's important to note, too, that we are talking about weight fluctuations within a HEALTHY range in otherwise HEALTHY horses. No one is advocating letting the horse get pig fat then turning it into a hat rack, or not supplying basic nutritional needs.

I have a horses living out who actually struggles to maintain his weight more here in winter than he did in Canada, interestingly enough, although I'm sure there are many variables in play, not just climate. He is also very 'immune sensitive', prone to vasculitis, allergic reactions etc. I've found the most useful thing I can do for him going into winter is make sure his NUTRITIONAL needs are being met, not just his caloric ones. A high grade vitamin, an easily digestible fat source, and a small amount of top quality low sugar hard feed, along with his meh quality forage keeps him much healthier. In Canada the general quality of hay was better and there were more options, so the supplement was not needed. My only point is that concentrating on weight to the exclusion of nutrition isn't the way to go either and each situation has to be weighed individually. A 'light' horse isn't necessarily unhealthy and a heavy one isn't necessarily 'well'.

Re changes in saddle fit. . .I'm sure I'll be pilloried for this but it's standard practice in many cases to use pads of varying thickness to even out minor fluctuations in fit. I know this is Just Not Done in this forum but just making the point it works for many. . . .
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RE saddle fit - I do this too. I pad up a bit in winter, and then down in summer. I use front and back risers where needed. Most of the pros I have as clients do the same - dressage riders are much funnier about perfect saddle fit than the eventers/sjers/endurance pros I've worked with. Adjustable gullets are good but on do so much...

And I think what you've said highlights it for me, Tarrsteps. I may be the only one, but in winter, I find it very hard to stop a horse losing weight once they start. I can maintain good doers at a decent weight in summer with work and type/amount of grazing, but in winter I would really struggle to put weight back on when they started losing it, and weight loss tends to go too far. I would much rather aim to maintain weight, as I think it's too easy to lose too much and then get into a horrible weight cycle. I would much rather be trying to lose weight in summer!

However like I said, all of mine have been in the top end of light to medium work and out 24/7 so maintaining winter weight much harder.

And whoever said they naturally lose weight more in winter due to forging for food has obviously never met my lot - in winter they stand huddled round the hay bale for 98% of the time!!!
 
My saddler has taught me a lot about how to use pads numahs and sheepskin to allow for shape changes in different situations.
Some horses change shape a lot .
And learning how to pad is a great help to keep horses working until the saddler can get to you.
Fatty is now three saddle widths smaller than he arrived with me .
ATM he's in one of my saddles as his own went out of fit a fortnight ago .
I have bitten the bullet and ordered another for him .
He will wear his MTM bigger saddle in summer .
And will have a slim lean mean hunting machine saddle to deploy at this time of year its wont be here for a while as its MTM but I will have it for next year.
I have changed my winter supplement this year and I feel Fatty in particular is fitter and harder fit and his muscle tone is really excellent so this perhaps suits him better than what I have used in the past.
 
I think we need to define thin or even poor tbh, can't remember the last time I saw a 'thin' horse (not talking about bonafide rescues here, but leisure horses at home or at livery). Nearly every horse I see around here (bar at one comp livery) is too fat by varying degrees.

Also, if your horse is in hard work or not an easy keeper than the thread doesn't really apply?If you have a horse that drops weight rapidly and is hard to get to gain weight then of course you wouldn't let it in the first place.

Noone is saying not to feed them a scrap all winter in order to see jutting bones. But an awful lot of natives (and other good doers) are over fed and over rugged and go into spring too fat for safety. I have two Exmoors, one is retired due to having a shoulder lameness that leads him to being totally paddock sound-he is a professional companion. The other is (or has been) too young to work as such. These types don't need to be troughing ad lib hay by the gob full, they need to be walking about to forage and finding very little, of very little calorific value, very regularly and using energy by regulating their own temperature.
 
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MotherOfChickens said:
I think we need to define thin or even poor tbh, can't remember the last time I saw a 'thin' horse (not talking about bonafide rescues here, but leisure horses at home or at livery). Nearly every horse I see around here (bar at one comp livery) is too fat by varying degrees.

Also, if your horse is in hard work or not an easy keeper than the thread doesn't really apply?If you have a horse that drops weight rapidly and is hard to get to gain weight then of course you wouldn't let it in the first place.

Noone is saying not to feed them a scrap all winter in order to see jutting bones. But an awful lot of natives (and other good doers) are over fed and over rugged and go into spring too fat for safety. I have two Exmoors, one is retired due to having a shoulder lameness that leads him to being totally paddock sound-he is a professional companion. The other is (or has been) too young to work as such. These types don't need to be troughing ad lib hay by the gob full, they need to be walking about to forage and finding very little, of very little calorific value, very regularly and using energy by regulating their own temperature.
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I used to own Highlands, and a Welsh X - they were just as hard to put weight on in winter once they'd lost it. I don't like 'letting' them gain the weight in the spring, so I kept them at a good weight year round and didn't let them drop off or gain. The Highlands looked far too slim for showing during the summer, but I think of that positively tbh ;)

Lucky that you haven't seen thin horses - I was embarrassed by mine last year. He was a bit hippy, hollow flanked, and ribby - just thin, not a welfare case by any means, but I just didn't get the feeding right early on, he lost the weight, and especially with the hard winter, I couldn't get it back - 3x large bucket feeds and ad lib haylage didn't work! This year, I was on top of it and he hasn't dropped any condition - my aim.
 
I haven't read all of the replies, however from a veterinary point of view, the ideal is allowing a horse's weight to fluctuate through the year - 5% overweight at the end of summer and 5% underweight at the end of winter. Horses are not designed to remain a constant weight all year round, and this trend has played a huge role in the problems with EMS/laminitis that we now see. It's not just a case of a horse's external appearance - when a horse puts weight on it lays down internal adipose tissue too, and it is these internal deposits that influence insulin metabolism etc. By allowing a horse to follow its natural cycle (and bear in mind, although domesticated, a horse in the wild is still the same as a horse in a stable) and lose weight, you are removing these internal fat deposits, and encouraging the horse to become more sensitive to insulin again - that way, when it enters spring it is in the best position to avoid laminitis. Certainly if anyone has ever attended a talk by Professor Knottenbelt and others who have done research on this subject, you would start to understand the problems we are causing our horses by trying to prevent them undergoing these metabolic changes. It has been several years since I researched this topic in depth for my uni dissertation, however as far as I'm aware research is now showing that any horse that has been overweight in the past will always be a laminitis risk, even if now a good weight, because those fat deposits are laid down and aren't removed fully when the horse diets back to a 'normal' weight. Hence why for metabolic syndrome ponies the dieting is so strict.

I advise all my clients that they should be aiming for these fluctuations through the year, and my own horses are living out 24/7 with no rugs and no supplemental feeding.
 
Murphy88 said:
I haven't read all of the replies, however from a veterinary point of view, the ideal is allowing a horse's weight to fluctuate through the year - 5% overweight at the end of summer and 5% underweight at the end of winter. Horses are not designed to remain a constant weight all year round, and this trend has played a huge role in the problems with EMS/laminitis that we now see. It's not just a case of a horse's external appearance - when a horse puts weight on it lays down internal adipose tissue too, and it is these internal deposits that influence insulin metabolism etc. By allowing a horse to follow its natural cycle (and bear in mind, although domesticated, a horse in the wild is still the same as a horse in a stable) and lose weight, you are removing these internal fat deposits, and encouraging the horse to become more sensitive to insulin again - that way, when it enters spring it is in the best position to avoid laminitis. Certainly if anyone has ever attended a talk by Professor Knottenbelt and others who have done research on this subject, you would start to understand the problems we are causing our horses by trying to prevent them undergoing these metabolic changes. It has been several years since I researched this topic in depth for my uni dissertation, however as far as I'm aware research is now showing that any horse that has been overweight in the past will always be a laminitis risk, even if now a good weight, because those fat deposits are laid down and aren't removed fully when the horse diets back to a 'normal' weight. Hence why for metabolic syndrome ponies the dieting is so strict.

I advise all my clients that they should be aiming for these fluctuations through the year, and my own horses are living out 24/7 with no rugs and no supplemental feeding.
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Interesting post. I expect your winter grazing is better than mine though as the three that are out 24/7 (with rugs) would be hat racks if I didn't feed them. There are three of them out on five acres and they get around 10 kilos of haylage and one feed a day each. I would say they were bang on a condition score of 3. I agree with you regarding that once a horse has been allowed to get fat, then it predisposes it to the risk of EMS. However, surely if you do not allow the horse to get more than a condition score of 3 (out of 5) during the summer, and maintain it as such throughout the winter, then those harmful internal fat deposits will not be laid down. Surely the problem is letting them get fat in the first place? I cannot see how keeping them at a 2.5 - 3 score throughout the year could cause the problems you describe? When people have competition horses, they cannot afford for them to get fat in the summer and drop off so much in the winter else performance would suffer. That is why I aim to keep them at an ideal weight throughout.
 
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Wagtail said:
Interesting post. I expect your winter grazing is better than mine though as the three that are out 24/7 (with rugs) would be hat racks if I didn't feed them. There are three of them out on five acres and they get around 10 kilos of haylage and one feed a day each. I would say they were bang on a condition score of 3. I agree with you regarding that once a horse has been allowed to get fat, then it predisposes it to the risk of EMS. However, surely if you do not allow the horse to get more than a condition score of 3 (out of 5) during the summer, and maintain it as such throughout the winter, then those harmful internal fat deposits will not be laid down. Surely the problem is letting them get fat in the first place? I cannot see how keeping them at a 2.5 - 3 score throughout the year could cause the problems you describe? When people have competition horses, they cannot afford for them to get fat in the summer and drop off so much in the winter else performance would suffer. That is why I aim to keep them at an ideal weight throughout.
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This. None of my horses, natives included, have been overweight - if anything I struggle to keep weight on - even in summer. If they haven't been fat, then they aren't predisposed to lami et al, and surely then I am better maintaining weight rather than allowing them to gain so it can drop again?
 
khalswitz said:
This. None of my horses, natives included, have been overweight - if anything I struggle to keep weight on - even in summer. If they haven't been fat, then they aren't predisposed to lami et al, and surely then I am better maintaining weight rather than allowing them to gain so it can drop again?
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I don't think anyone is advising "allowing" your horse to gain weight just so it can drop it again. The point is that for some horses, especially natives like mine, they will inevitably put it on through spring and summer and then lose it over winter. I've seen this happen to adult natives being ridden 4 hours a day, 3-5 days a week over summer living on a small pasture. Something in some horses' metabolisms says, put on weight for winter.

For other horses, probably the warmer blooded ones, then it's different. They don't put on weight as easily and thus don't need to lose it. They can stay a constant weight all year and be fine.

It's not a case of only one way works and I don't see why we constantly debate to find this one way. For some horses, x works, for others, y. If your horse is healthy surely you're doing the right thing, whatever that may be?
 
Lets go back a few decades when the majority of liesure horses were stabled -
1 - They were kept at a consistant weight
2 - Exercised properly every day
3 - Fed the Basic feeds Hay, Oats/Barley/H&P cubes/Sugarbeet - chaff only available to those with a chaff cutter
4 - The people caring for them knew what they were doing and the people owning the horses allowed them free rein with feeding
5 - We did not strip graze or restrict grazing
6 - Those prone to laminitis were kept on very short grass and given exercise or were locked up
7 - We didn't see many horses with ulcers
8 - Did we see EPMS - NO!
9 - Did we see Laminitis - Rarely and it was generally the natives that had had too much spring grass.
10 - Were horses kept on dairy pasture - YES

I think the modern generation of horse owners need to start listening to the oldies and take note.

My horse ownership now spans over 4 decades, I've owned many and been responsible for hundreds of horses/ponies owned by other people. I have NEVER had a case of EPMS, any laminitics that have come into my care have NEVER got laminitis again. My horses stay sound and of the school horses many worked well into their 20's early 30's.

The only processed feed that has passed any of their lips was one bag of Broodmare Balancer!

They have all been fed Oats, Barley, Sugarbeet, Meadow Chaff, Salt and supplied with a multi mineral block they got good quality meadow hay that was never soaked.

The ponies I had were rarely fed and competed successfully off grass.

If I can keep hundreds of horses looking and working well on the basics - please tell me why you (sweeping arms across the board) cannot keep one horse well on the basics?
 
Can I ask how long you have been keeping horses in NZ?

I had rarely seen a case of founder until I came to the UK, and the ones I have seen have had obvious causes, usually to do with reaction to medication, another illness, excessive grain consumption (I mean like "feed room break in" consumption) or gross mismanagement. I probably have a wider exposure than most to horses that live in every conceivable way, having been involved in many different disciplines and lived in various climates. It is just not something the average horse owner worries about on a daily basis.

My conversations with people - vets, trainers, academics - from Australia and New Zealand (and many places in Continental Europe) suggest they have had similar experiences. There is something about keeping horses in the UK, at least now, that changes the equation.
 
TarrSteps said:
Can I ask how long you have been keeping horses in NZ?

I had rarely seen a case of founder until I came to the UK, and the ones I have seen have had obvious causes, usually to do with reaction to medication, another illness, excessive grain consumption (I mean like "feed room break in" consumption) or gross mismanagement. I probably have a wider exposure than most to horses that live in every conceivable way, having been involved in many different disciplines and lived in various climates. It is just not something the average horse owner worries about on a daily basis.

My conversations with people - vets, trainers, academics - from Australia and New Zealand (and many places in Continental Europe) suggest they have had similar experiences. There is something about keeping horses in the UK, at least now, that changes the equation.
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26 years in New Zealand and around the same in the UK.

What has changed in the UK is the abundance of commercially prepared foods. The grazing is still the same and before anyone jumps up and down a cries Dairy farms - the places I've kept horses here in NZ are or have been dairy farms.

Tarr Steps - one of the side effects of steroids which vets seem to throw around like darts these days is diabetes.

Grain room break ins and the break out into the hay paddock are sadly accidents that do happen.

Horses that founder when injured are often a side effect of poor bandaging skills or not applying a support bandage to the other leg.

These days I cringe when I see what vets class as bandaging. When my youngster was returned to me last July with a bad wire cut the vet had used a few wraps of vetwrap just below the hock - there was no padding under the wrap and as it had only been wrapped a couple of times around the bandage had slipped and one edge was digging into the wound.

The vet wasn't allowed back!

With 6 weeks box confinement and proper bandaging of both the injured leg and its partner my horses leg healed really well - but if that had been left to the vet and the young girl my horse had been leased to I don't expect that the horse would have recovered so well.

Horse owners need to do their horses a favour and attend classes on feeding and general horse management. The UK has countless 'Equestrian Colleges' these days so there is no excuse. Look on the internet I recently did a five week equine nutrition course through 'Cosera' and Edinburgh University.
 
Tnavas said:
If I can keep hundreds of horses looking and working well on the basics - please tell me why you (sweeping arms across the board) cannot keep one horse well on the basics?
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Tnavas, I cant actually hold it in any longer. Rarely, even amongst horse people, have I come across someone so maddeningly superior. Every post you make seems to involve you discounting the experience and knowledge of others, and spouting forth about how little everyone else knows in comparison with you.
I like to think that, despite 35 years in the industry, I still learn something every day - I'd hate to be in the position of thinking that I knew everything, and there was nothing more to be learned from discussing things with a rich variety of horse people, some experienced, some not so much.

I'd apologise for being rude, but I'm afraid I'm just not sorry.
 
Wagtail said:
Interesting post. I expect your winter grazing is better than mine though as the three that are out 24/7 (with rugs) would be hat racks if I didn't feed them. There are three of them out on five acres and they get around 10 kilos of haylage and one feed a day each. I would say they were bang on a condition score of 3. I agree with you regarding that once a horse has been allowed to get fat, then it predisposes it to the risk of EMS. However, surely if you do not allow the horse to get more than a condition score of 3 (out of 5) during the summer, and maintain it as such throughout the winter, then those harmful internal fat deposits will not be laid down. Surely the problem is letting them get fat in the first place? I cannot see how keeping them at a 2.5 - 3 score throughout the year could cause the problems you describe? When people have competition horses, they cannot afford for them to get fat in the summer and drop off so much in the winter else performance would suffer. That is why I aim to keep them at an ideal weight throughout.
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But how m many of us own our horses from birth??. I have one now, and had another a few years ago, who were primed for metabolic problems before I ever owned them.

If you do not know your horse's entire history, the only safe thing to do is to allow seasonal fluctuation of weight.
 
Tnavas said:
Lets go back a few decades when the majority of liesure horses were stabled -
1 - They were kept at a consistant weight
2 - Exercised properly every day
3 - Fed the Basic feeds Hay, Oats/Barley/H&P cubes/Sugarbeet - chaff only available to those with a chaff cutter
4 - The people caring for them knew what they were doing and the people owning the horses allowed them free rein with feeding
5 - We did not strip graze or restrict grazing
6 - Those prone to laminitis were kept on very short grass and given exercise or were locked up
7 - We didn't see many horses with ulcers
8 - Did we see EPMS - NO!
9 - Did we see Laminitis - Rarely and it was generally the natives that had had too much spring grass.
10 - Were horses kept on dairy pasture - YES

I think the modern generation of horse owners need to start listening to the oldies and take note.

My horse ownership now spans over 4 decades, I've owned many and been responsible for hundreds of horses/ponies owned by other people. I have NEVER had a case of EPMS, any laminitics that have come into my care have NEVER got laminitis again. My horses stay sound and of the school horses many worked well into their 20's early 30's.

The only processed feed that has passed any of their lips was one bag of Broodmare Balancer!

They have all been fed Oats, Barley, Sugarbeet, Meadow Chaff, Salt and supplied with a multi mineral block they got good quality meadow hay that was never soaked.

The ponies I had were rarely fed and competed successfully off grass.

If I can keep hundreds of horses looking and working well on the basics - please tell me why you (sweeping arms across the board) cannot keep one horse well on the basics?
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Strange post , I don't know what you think goes on here but I and most of my very numerous horsey friends can keep our horses looking and doing very well .
I have four horses and they all look great ( except of the one with very little tail he would win no prizes ATM )
 
Tnavas said:
Lets go back a few decades when the majority of liesure horses were stabled -
1 - They were kept at a consistant weight
2 - Exercised properly every day
3 - Fed the Basic feeds Hay, Oats/Barley/H&P cubes/Sugarbeet - chaff only available to those with a chaff cutter
4 - The people caring for them knew what they were doing and the people owning the horses allowed them free rein with feeding
5 - We did not strip graze or restrict grazing
6 - Those prone to laminitis were kept on very short grass and given exercise or were locked up
7 - We didn't see many horses with ulcers
8 - Did we see EPMS - NO!
9 - Did we see Laminitis - Rarely and it was generally the natives that had had too much spring grass.
10 - Were horses kept on dairy pasture - YES
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I am sorry but I have to disagree with a lot of this.

True leisure only horses were only stabled in winter overnight, if at all.

Fully stabled horses were usually turned away in the close season of whatever sport they participated in. Show horses lost weight in winter. Fit hunters put it on in summer. Weight fluctuation was absolutely normal.

Grazing was routinely restricted for those horses which needed it, as your next point indicates. It was absolutely normal to turn out overnight and stable during the day if a horse got footie.


I believe ulcers were common, but we did not know about them and badly behaved horses were beaten into shape or shot.

Likewise, we did not recognise EPSM, which is now identified by muscle biopsy, or insulin resistance which is now being identified as a precursor to Cushings, which is also much, much more prevalent than we realised.

My recollection is that horses were not kept on dairy pasture unless they were sharing it with cows or rotating on after the cows had stripped it. I think it would also be interesting to compare old manure based versus new ways of grass fertilization with petrochemical derivatives.
 
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Auslander said:
Tnavas, I cant actually hold it in any longer. Rarely, even amongst horse people, have I come across someone so maddeningly superior. Every post you make seems to involve you discounting the experience and knowledge of others, and spouting forth about how little everyone else knows in comparison with you.
I like to think that, despite 35 years in the industry, I still learn something every day - I'd hate to be in the position of thinking that I knew everything, and there was nothing more to be learned from discussing things with a rich variety of horse people, some experienced, some not so much.

I'd apologise for being rude, but I'm afraid I'm just not sorry.
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Auslander - When posting on forums it's really hard to put across emotions - so if you interpret my posts as maddeningly superior that's your problem not mine. I try to put across my experience and knowledge hoping that I will help others and that they will go away and learn more about feeding the basics.

It's not a matter of being superior or knowing more than others - it's based on decades of experience and the frustration of seeing people slowly kill their horses by the products sold to them by feed companies- this is my main beef - people trust them so much yet the research for your everyday horse is minimal. I read on hear constantly of people who's horses have frightened them by their poor behaviour - which will be mostly feed related.

I do have extensive knowledge - I studied long and hard for the exams I hold - being some of the worlds highest level Horse Management exams - I was lucky to study with some of the UK's top people - FBHS's and BHS chief examiners among them.

I still study despite being 62 years old - I read and I learn everyday - I have lived through the times when horses were fed the basics I saw the mayhem that the first Meusli type feeds caused - even then they were promoted by the manufacturers to 'save time and storage space' - I have seen the problems people have first hand when they have been feeding premixed feeds. I educate my Pony Club kids on feeds - and am slowly changing people back to the basic feeds. They then see the change in their horses behaviour, recently I finally convinced a parent to actually stop feeding hard feed to their daughters pony and just let it work off grass - they are stunned at the change in its behaviour.

Recently a young instructor at Pony Club bemoaned the fact that we teach the children about the basic feeds - she can't see past the pretty label. Maybe she was worried about being given the subject to teach - possibly she too wasn't able to identify and discuss the various components of feed.
 
cptrayes said:
I am sorry but I have to disagree with a lot of this.

True leisure only horses were only stabled in winter overnight, if at all. The horses at the places I have worked were generally stabled 24/7 with a possible two weeks holiday in summer when the owner went away

Fully stabled horses were usually turned away in the close season of whatever sport they participated in. Show horses lost weight in winter. Fit hunters put it on in summer. Weight fluctuation was absolutely normal. Agree - Hunters were given several weeks being let down ready to go out and then around 8 weeks of time to bring them back into work, but many liesure horses were stabled year round 24/7

Grazing was routinely restricted for those horses which needed it, as your next point indicates. It was absolutely normal to turn out overnight and stable during the day if a horse got footie. Grazing was restricted by turning out on billiard table length grass - we didn't have electric fencing to use for strip grazing

I believe ulcers were common, but we did not know about them and badly behaved horses were beaten into shape or shot. I don't believe that was so - horses were given far more small feeds over the day so their stomach was rarely empty they also had adlib hay available

Likewise, we did not recognise EPSM, which is now identified by muscle biopsy, or insulin resistance which is now being identified as a precursor to Cushings, which is also much, much more prevalent than we realised. We didn't see it then because it rarely developed - I rememer only a couple of Cushings ponies - both had been lamanitic at some time in their lives.

My recollection is that horses were not kept on dairy pasture unless they were sharing it with cows or rotating on after the cows had stripped it. I think it would also be interesting to compare old manure based versus new ways of grass fertilization with petrochemical derivatives.
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I recently read an article on fertilization methods - it seems that as the carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere have increased the grasses ability to store nitrogen has reduced and that pasture these days has less feed value than pasture 20 - 30 years ago.

Generally here in NZ pasture is fertilized with commercially prepared mixes - the school paddocks were done twice a year and all the horses and ponies grazed on the paddocks 24/7. Only fed when worked and in winter given hay and again only hard fed if worked.
 
Tnavas said:
Auslander - When posting on forums it's really hard to put across emotions - so if you interpret my posts as maddeningly superior that's your problem not mine. I try to put across my experience and knowledge hoping that I will help others and that they will go away and learn more about feeding the basics.

It's not a matter of being superior or knowing more than others - it's based on decades of experience and the frustration of seeing people slowly kill their horses by the products sold to them by feed companies- this is my main beef - people trust them so much yet the research for your everyday horse is minimal. I read on hear constantly of people who's horses have frightened them by their poor behaviour - which will be mostly feed related.

I do have extensive knowledge - I studied long and hard for the exams I hold - being some of the worlds highest level Horse Management exams - I was lucky to study with some of the UK's top people - FBHS's and BHS chief examiners among them.

I still study despite being 62 years old - I read and I learn everyday - I have lived through the times when horses were fed the basics I saw the mayhem that the first Meusli type feeds caused - even then they were promoted by the manufacturers to 'save time and storage space' - I have seen the problems people have first hand when they have been feeding premixed feeds. I educate my Pony Club kids on feeds - and am slowly changing people back to the basic feeds. They then see the change in their horses behaviour, recently I finally convinced a parent to actually stop feeding hard feed to their daughters pony and just let it work off grass - they are stunned at the change in its behaviour.

Recently a young instructor at Pony Club bemoaned the fact that we teach the children about the basic feeds - she can't see past the pretty label. Maybe she was worried about being given the subject to teach - possibly she too wasn't able to identify and discuss the various components of feed.
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Really - read back what you just wrote!! Condescending much...

Getting people's backs up by patronising them isn't the way to go about sharing your knowledge though. It doesn't matter how much you know - if you cannot communicate it in a way that readers can stomach, then it's a waste of all those decades of experience.
Rather than saying that my feeling about the tone you adopt on here is "my problem"- surely that means that you should think more carefully about how you come across if you want people to listen to you. You never see anyone getting cross about how, for example, Tarrsteps offers advice - interesting eh?

There are a lot of people on here who have a huge amount of knowledge - maybe try clambering out from behind the pulpit, and joining in with discussions.
 
Tnavas, my experiences are of similar length to yours, a bit shorter, but differ markedly. We will simply have to accept that we have seen different things.
 
horses are being kept into much older ages, horses are being stabled more, rugged more, fed more, the types of horses we are keeping are different (sport horses/ponies were anglos, there was the odd cob for hunting, Natives of course but no WBs to speak of other than ID x TBs and gypsy cobs were not kept by anyone other than travellers).

Horses were worked harder and let down properly and then fittened up properly, ponies were mostly kept out and not rugged, everything had their shoes off when not needed. Any type of horse would have periods whereby they would be judged as 'poor' by our present standards but probably were not. I would say that the average horse owner may be less knowledgable but my family wasn't exactly horsey when we started out and low end DIY livery yards existed in the 70s too. I do think that on the whole, there are more yards with less knowledgable yard owners about and most owners work and have less time to exercise horses as much as they could do with.

I don't know about dairy grazing as I grew up in East Anglia with nairy a dairy cow-or any sort of cow, in sight. Mine were kept either at grass livery or on a small holding.We kept 2 natives on 3 acres of well draining paddocks, split into two and rotated monthly in the winter, fortnightly in the summer (bowling greens year round!), out 24/7 with no rugs. They were worked pretty hard in the summer-only at weekends in the winter (most people did not have access to a school). My 14.2 TB x NF was the only pony I had clipped, rugged and stabled as we were hunting and by that point, I could do the work my self and walk to the livery yard after school.

I am sure, looking back, that the last pony had ulcers-we just didn't know about them in the early 80s, of course there was kissing spines and all of those 'new' conditions too. I didn't see a case of laminitis (or sweet itch for that matter) until I was in my 20s (the 90s) but either could just be where I grew up as opposed to anything else.
 
Tnavas said:
26 years in New Zealand and around the same in the UK.

What has changed in the UK is the abundance of commercially prepared foods. The grazing is still the same and before anyone jumps up and down a cries Dairy farms - the places I've kept horses here in NZ are or have been dairy farms.

Tarr Steps - one of the side effects of steroids which vets seem to throw around like darts these days is diabetes.

Grain room break ins and the break out into the hay paddock are sadly accidents that do happen.

Horses that founder when injured are often a side effect of poor bandaging skills or not applying a support bandage to the other leg.

These days I cringe when I see what vets class as bandaging. When my youngster was returned to me last July with a bad wire cut the vet had used a few wraps of vetwrap just below the hock - there was no padding under the wrap and as it had only been wrapped a couple of times around the bandage had slipped and one edge was digging into the wound.

The vet wasn't allowed back!

With 6 weeks box confinement and proper bandaging of both the injured leg and its partner my horses leg healed really well - but if that had been left to the vet and the young girl my horse had been leased to I don't expect that the horse would have recovered so well.

Horse owners need to do their horses a favour and attend classes on feeding and general horse management. The UK has countless 'Equestrian Colleges' these days so there is no excuse. Look on the internet I recently did a five week equine nutrition course through 'Cosera' and Edinburgh University.
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Sorry, I don't really understand. I presume you are answering my question re why the situation vis a vis laminitis seems to be different in other countries but none of the points you mention seem germane. . .

Commercially prepared feeds are available the world over now. I might know a few more people in Canada who feed straights and it does seem that, in general, more prepared feeds are relatively simple there, but I'd hazard a guess that commercially prepared feeds are now more common than not.

While it is true that more horses get steroid joint injections in the UK because some of the options aren't available here - I couldn't understand this until someone on here explained it to me - there is no shortage of the practice in North America. And I would suspect, at least from experience, that oral steroid such as prednisone and dexamethasone are actually more commonly prescribed. While I have seen founder as a result of using these medications, again, at nothing like the rates people seem to consider "expected" here.

The bandaging thing . . . I think we will have to agree to disagree. I've never had or seen a horse founder on box rest, bandaged or not, so can't comment to that, although I am sure confinement and related factors can be an issue, particularly for already sensitive horses. Recent studies on bandaging seem to indicate that there is actually very little "support" we can offer, relative to the strength of a horse's mechanisms so the practice of always wrapping legs in pairs is a bit suspect. I do it because it's what I've been taught but I'm not convinced I'm doing much more than making myself feel better. There might be something to be said for circulatory support but even that doesn't seem born out by study.

By "illness or injury" I mean that a horse has sustained sufficient trauma and/or is being treated in a risky way because of necessity. In other words, the risk of founder is high because of the situation. If a horse needs steroids to live then you give them, knowing the risk and hoping you'll pull it off. Or the situation is such that founder is a potential complication of the original problem. For example, I cared for an older horse who, for reasons we never really got to the bottom of, had a serious cardiac episode. A few days later he foundered, which makes perfect sense in as it is, in effect, a circulatory disease. I've seen in in poisoning cases and in horse seriously ill with infections. I don't see what this has to do with bandaging . . .

My point re feed room break ins or other "accidents" - i did see a horse founder once after running itself to a standstill on Tarmac, although, to be fair, there was a lot of variables in that experience - is that it is only in these extreme situations where horses can be "expected" to founder. It is a very unusual thing to happen to the average horse living and average, crisis free existence. Why is that?

While there are many similarities in how horses are kept in the UK vs other parts of the world, nowhere else seems to have the incidence of, and paranoia about laminitis. I don't think you can put it down to owner education, either, as that seems to be a similar variable the world over.

I've looked after probably thousands of horses, too, and generally I skew towards obsessive and paranoid. I've been very lucky, over all. Careful yes, but also lucky. I'm curious why is seems easier to be lucky in this particular area in other parts of the world, vs the UK.
 
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Just a thought - very few of us are lucky enough to own our horses since birth. Therefore, we have no knowledge of any previous weight gain and subsequent loss, possibly back to normal. If the internal adipose tissue is still there (hidden) and producing leptin, can you blood test for it? Or are there any other markers you can test for?
 
I've always welcomed Winter as I've never had a horse which wasn't a fatty. In the Summer they have to have grazing restricted, in the Winter I can just let them get on with it and let them lose weight. They are kept pretty much the same way as horses were back in the 70's, and that includes Hunters, Point to Pointers, eventers, riding school ponies and our PC/Sport ponies/horses.
differences are that we now understand the importance of all sorts of stuff which dramatically improves the health/comfort of the horse such as good dentistry, good shoeing/hoof balance etc. Certainly all these metabolic issues were around back then, they were just undiagnosed or misunderstood. we had a mare with EPSM in the mid 70's but it was described as azoturia, and treated with an alkaline syrup.
 
cptrayes said:
But how m many of us own our horses from birth??. I have one now, and had another a few years ago, who were primed for metabolic problems before I ever owned them.

If you do not know your horse's entire history, the only safe thing to do is to allow seasonal fluctuation of weight.
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That is very true. When I got my mare she was really fat with some obvious red rings around her white hooves. I didn't take enough notice of them at the time...

Many people will know the terrible fight I had and lost against EMS and Cushings induce laminitis 14 years later.
 
khalswitz said:
And whoever said they naturally lose weight more in winter due to forging for food has obviously never met my lot - in winter they stand huddled round the hay bale for 98% of the time!!!
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This is exactly what I avoid by allowing them to forage on the natural foggage (standing weeds and grass) in winter. They are moving around most of the time, covering the whole field, finding this and that. They're never stood under a hedge with their tail between their legs looking bored.

I only provide hay if there's snow, or I've really run out of natural forage - and even then I make sure there's no routine, and it's set out in many piles, and various places. I don't want them hanging around the gate expecting it if I can avoid it.

Horses get bored and cold 'standing around it 98% of the time'.
 
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