Why dont they cradle horses coming round from a GA?

[lizness]

I have seen 10 or so horses come round from GA, it very rarely looks neat! Certain things can be done to help them get up better. e.g catheterising bladder so horse doesn't rush to get up cos sedation often makes them wee! The knock down I have seen used resembles a child paddeed play area. I have heard it discussed about using a rope system to help get a horse upright but aparently you really need to know what you are doing with it or you can make it a lot worse.
Sedated horses are very dangerous to people so thi shas to be considered

 

[Racergirl]

We do assisted recoveries after GA - we have ropes on the head and tail. We catheterise during surgery to keep them comfortable, and also give xylazine before they come round, just to sedate them with something that doesnt last very long, and they usually come round ok.

We dont use slings unless we absolutely HAVE to - horses tend to panic when they come round and find straps and pulleys everywhere.

Foals and youngsters we have to leave to recover on their own though becuse you cant assist them - they generally dont have enough tail to get the ropes on !!

 

[Racergirl]

Oh I agree GW, owners should know exactly what happens to their horse when they go for treatment/surgery. (all conditions not just recently shown hoof surgery)
You are right, many people think if I can just get them to hospital it will all be fine and as you say that is the beginning of the journey for the horse and owner, not the end.
Many will disagree I'm sure but I am concerned in these days of insurance that many horses go through awful experiences when the right thing to do would be to let them go, peacefully, at home.
I hope the programme will make owners aware of what these horses go through.
Vets are in the main, fantastic and have my utmost respect but sometimes they are so focused on the condition they don't always think of the patient. The treatment is available but not always the best option.
Let's also not forget that human doctors and animal veterinarians are always pushing the boundaries, and to find out what works and what doesn't is both fascinating and necessary to them, and for that they need patients.
For some owners anything is worth a try, for others, including me, the possible end result is not worth the trauma of the treatment for some animals, you can't explain to them what is happening like you can to a human patient. So the very least is to make sure the owners know what is happening to their horse, something this programme is doing very well.

I agree with a lot of this post, but I just want to say that IMO insurance companies have a lot to answer for with regard to animals being treated when maybe PTS would be a much better option all round- they wont pay out if you dont meet exacting criteria, and I honestly think that in a lot of situations that is wrong. If your vet is happy to call it a day on humane grounds for the welfare of the horse, then I think it should be good enough for any insurer.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I agree with a lot of this post, but I just want to say that IMO insurance companies have a lot to answer for with regard to animals being treated when maybe PTS would be a much better option all round- they wont pay out if you dont meet exacting criteria, and I honestly think that in a lot of situations that is wrong. If your vet is happy to call it a day on humane grounds for the welfare of the horse, then I think it should be good enough for any insurer.

But that is what amazes me - the insurance companies pay out so much for treatments, that cost a fortune, but they do seam to miss the ethics.

none of mine are insured, and the reason behind this is that i am in whole control of everything they go through, and i never want to think i cant pts because of some box that needs to be ticked by the insurance.

 

[wattamus]

Mine came round from GA 3 times with no issues, and all those times she had had surgery to her leg. the room was padded and the vets were outside the whole time so it wasn't too dangerous. To be honest i was more worried that she wouldn't wake up as i was told one in a hundred did not wake up.

thinking about it though, by the third time she would have been an old hand, she probably woke up and though "oh right this again"

 

[criso]

When mine was operated on recently they explained they 'hand raise' them, similar to what Racergirl describes as this greatly reduces the risk of injury when coming round.

One other worry was that he would somehow be traumatised by the whole experience but when I visited him the day after he was his usual self other than a bit physically sore where they had operated:- mugging me for treats and trying to chat up a mare led past.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Mine came round from GA 3 times with no issues, and all those times she had had surgery to her leg. the room was padded and the vets were outside the whole time so it wasn't too dangerous. To be honest i was more worried that she wouldn't wake up as i was told one in a hundred did not wake up.

thinking about it though, by the third time she would have been an old hand, she probably woke up and though "oh right this again"

how is she now ?

 

[muckypony]

I missed the last two so just caught up online!

The one the week before that had colic surgery came round much better than the latest one did.

And I have to say.. That vet.. Mmmm

 

[Maesfen]

The inside story to this is the operation done before the one that was filmed; the horse from that came around in copybook fashion then the horse operated on after the filmed one, also came around in copybook fashion but this one reacted very badly, totally unexpected and one of the worst they've seen there - other than those that have broken limbs of course. From what I can gather, one of the things against slings or support of some sort are the organs themselves, they couldn't take too much compression when the body is recovering from anaesthetic.

Have to say I agree totally with Ribbons (I think) about it not wanting to be something I would ever dream of putting my horses through and that a lot of it is done to appease the insurance companies. As someone else said, where are their ethics, those op's cost far more than the horse is worth in most cases; it would be fairer on the horse to call it a day.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Maesfen- any idea why they said he got straight up in the programe then ? i think that is what has made a lot of us stop and think.

You know if that was a straight up one - i was dreading to thinkg what a bad one would be like

 

[Maesfen]

I think a lot of that was 'poetic license', what Joe Public wanted to hear, don't want to scare the punters away after all! Incidentally, RH was only ever there for about half a day if that altogether over the whole filming not as is portrayed at all; again poetic license!

 

[meandmyself]

What channel is the show on? I've never heard of it but I'm curious now.

 

[Gingerwitch]

5

Its normally on on a Thursday at 9pm and then repeated on a sunday - but i have no idea what time it was on today

 

[doratheexplorer]

When I visited Kentucky, I was lucky enough to visit two massive equine surgeries - who deal with a lot of seriously expensive racehorses. They have 2/3 'experianced' handlers in the room with a horse coming around from GA, normally 2 sitting on the horses neck and one to talk to the horse, and pat it from behind so they can monitor how awake the horse is. Once the handlers are sure the horse is awake, but still a little dozy, they slowly get off its neck, and allow it to get up slowly.

The vets did insist that it was extremely dangerous, but when they are operating on multi-million dollar racehorses, I guess people will do all sorts. It was very interesting to hear about though.

 

[meandmyself]

5

Its normally on on a Thursday at 9pm and then repeated on a sunday - but i have no idea what time it was on today

Thank you! Will take a look on the website.

 

[Racergirl]

Gingerwitch - that's kind of what I'm getting at - you'd think for business reasons (depending on the problem) it would be sensible to pay out the horses value rather than make the owner jump though hoops and put their horses through hell... Example is my horse last month - there was no way I was going to put her through moreinvestigations and travel to the surgery - the vet and I were both convinced that the sole drop and non weightbearing was just the tip of the iceberg and the vet was more than prepared to write that we were euthanising on humane grounds,but because we didn't investigate any further she didn't meet BEVA guidelines and I won't get her value.
The money doesn't actually bother me - certainly not over her welfare, but I still struggle with an insurance companies insistence that to pay out her value on death (£300 - it's not even like it is for much!!!) they wanted me to put her through the mill and potentially spend all £5000 of my limit??!! Makes no business sense to me whatsoever (though I can appreciate that some people are unscrupulous and would take advantage of it!) and I also find it pretty insulting that some vet sat in an office miles away is meant to get the final say in my horses welfare.8/10 lame after 2 sachets of bute with a huge sole drop and they think j should keep her going for more pain?? I don't think so

 

[brighteyes]

Gingerwitch - that's kind of what I'm getting at - you'd think for business reasons (depending on the problem) it would be sensible to pay out the horses value rather than make the owner jump though hoops and put their horses through hell... Example is my horse last month - there was no way I was going to put her through moreinvestigations and travel to the surgery - the vet and I were both convinced that the sole drop and non weightbearing was just the tip of the iceberg and the vet was more than prepared to write that we were euthanising on humane grounds,but because we didn't investigate any further she didn't meet BEVA guidelines and I won't get her value.
The money doesn't actually bother me - certainly not over her welfare, but I still struggle with an insurance companies insistence that to pay out her value on death (£300 - it's not even like it is for much!!!) they wanted me to put her through the mill and potentially spend all £5000 of my limit??!! Makes no business sense to me whatsoever (though I can appreciate that some people are unscrupulous and would take advantage of it!) and I also find it pretty insulting that some vet sat in an office miles away is meant to get the final say in my horses welfare.8/10 lame after 2 sachets of bute with a huge sole drop and they think j should keep her going for more pain?? I don't think so

Glad I'm not the only one. Mine aren't insured except for public liability. I'm going to decide without interference what is happening to them in such a situation.

 

[ribbons]

I stopped insuring mine 2 years ago for these very reasons. I just have public liability now. I feel its a double edged sword, fantastic peace of mind sometimes but more often the cause of horses suffering unnecessarily.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

What channel is the show on? I've never heard of it but I'm curious now.

It's on Tuesday evenings at 8pm(same time as Holby) on Channel 5

 

[tallyho!]

But that is what amazes me - the insurance companies pay out so much for treatments, that cost a fortune, but they do seam to miss the ethics.

none of mine are insured, and the reason behind this is that i am in whole control of everything they go through, and i never want to think i cant pts because of some box that needs to be ticked by the insurance.

My renewal has just come through... gone up surprise surprise... BUT, the vets fees incl. colic surgery is £12.5k. Death is £20k... no wonder they would rather put a horse through the vets first... risk is lower, they will exclude after 12 months then if the horse dies as a result of the "event" then they have saved £7.5k...

Harsh but they do have us over a barrell.

 

[cptrayes]

When my previous horse had to have a GA this was my biggest concern...breaking a leg whilst trying to get up. I was horrifed when my vet told me that at that time 1 in 10 GA surgery horses suffered fatal complications from coming round from the GA, even with the padded boxes. This seemed an extraordinarly large figure.

It would be interesting to know if cradles have be trialled or even considered? Maybe they are too expensive?

It's 1 in 100 but it's still too high

The 1 in 100 includes dying during the surgery, not just coming round from the anaesthetic.

The horse I had who had a GA would have gone beserk if he was constrained by a cradle. I would never have a GA done by any vet that did not have a fully padded recovery room covered by CCTV, though. They described mine as "feisty", so I assume he threw himself around a bit!


I'm with you on the colic surgery Gingerwitch, none of mine will ever have it done. And with everyone on insurance in general, it's now so unethical that it's causing horse welfare problems. There are many horses being put down because the insurance won't pay out if they go over the year end, and many others being put through unacceptable suffering to satisfy BEVA guidelines and Insurance requirements. I am so glad that it makes no economic sense to insure three.

 

[Gingerwitch]

My renewal has just come through... gone up surprise surprise... BUT, the vets fees incl. colic surgery is £12.5k. Death is £20k... no wonder they would rather put a horse through the vets first... risk is lower, they will exclude after 12 months then if the horse dies as a result of the "event" then they have saved £7.5k...

Harsh but they do have us over a barrell.

I have never thought of this.... but dont insure anyways - we just face what we do when we do- and we are 100% in control.

I also dont want to have to phone the insurance at every little vet visit - dorris had a bee sting - nobbie cut his leg etc which you should do on every event you have a vet for

 

[milesjess]

I have seen one method used and I think it was by UK vets, who tied a rope to the tail and also put a rope from the head collar on both opposite walls tight. So when horse stood up, ropes pulled tight and helped the horse to balance and stopped it from throwing itself around too much.

I can understand why no persons are allowed in the room at the time as its simply to dangerous.

I'll try and find a vid/ link of the method above as it did seem to help but obviously there's always a risk.

 

[milesjess]

http://www.azequinerescue.org/Sammy_surgery.html

The last two pics - from the vid I saw the handlers are outside the box managing the ropes and tightening/ loosening when required. Sorry it's not actually a UK vid so I don't know if we use this method.

 

[milesjess]

http://youtu.be/Iv7yI0pduik

Hope that works!

 

[HeatherAnn]

I couldn't believe that they were allowing a horse to get up in that room! There was a corner on the inside of the room if I remember right. It was so distressing to watch, I know it's one of those things that can't be helped but surely if they're aware that the horse is likely to get hurt then they would take extra precaution, by using a safer room?

It's on C5's website here: http://www.channel5.com/shows/rolfs-animal-clinic/episodes/episode-4-413

 

[Gingerwitch]

http://www.azequinerescue.org/Sammy_surgery.html

The last two pics - from the vid I saw the handlers are outside the box managing the ropes and tightening/ loosening when required. Sorry it's not actually a UK vid so I don't know if we use this method.

Fab information - thank you - now thats what i would expect from Leahurst !

 

[ribbons]

A horse insured for a 20k payout on death is surely fairly unusual with the general horse owning public though. In that case it does make financial sense for insurers to go treatment route, but most horses covered are surely below 5k, and often the prognosis is not brilliant anyway.
Every condition and every horse and owner are different. I prefer to make the decision myself without pressure from insurance co's or vets, who I have noticed often have a different opinion on treatment depending on whether the horse is insured or not.

 

[Orangehorse]

That American film clip looked a lot better - should send it to Leahurst!

I went round a veterinary hospital in Ireland once, and there the horses went down in the padded room, and then the whole floor lifted up and they could wheel the horse into the operating theatre, but I have never seen anything like it again, so maybe it was thought unnecessary.

As far as horse having a colic op - I have grave reservations too, but it is very hard to have the horse in pain and have the chance of a good recovery. I sometimes wonder if operations are done "because they can" rather than for the best welfare of the horse. Friend's horse went to surgery with colic, after a nightmare journey. Survived the op, only to die in the recovery room and the conclusion was that at over 20 he was too old to stand the procedure. Traumatic for the owner.

 

[Gingerwitch]

A horse insured for a 20k payout on death is surely fairly unusual with the general horse owning public though. In that case it does make financial sense for insurers to go treatment route, but most horses covered are surely below 5k, and often the prognosis is not brilliant anyway.
Every condition and every horse and owner are different. I prefer to make the decision myself without pressure from insurance co's or vets, who I have noticed often have a different opinion on treatment depending on whether the horse is insured or not.

Yes its amazing what treatment you can get away with when they find out your not insured - my vets dont even ask the question anymore. But a recent horse that had a bad kick on my yard - they wanted to ship over for x rays - it was only when they asked me if i woud take the horse, i asked why they were not x raying on the yard - i must admit i did not fancy travelling the horse with the potential broken leg - so was being a bit selfish. Surprise surprise - x ray machine on yard within the day ??