Why I'm giving up - a YM's perspective

[splashgirl45]

Um, I am one of those people who keeps a horse on a shoestring budget, of which more in a minute...

However, I sympathise entirely with the OP's decision. Having worked with horses in my youth, I took the decision to get a "proper" job as I knew there was no way I would be able to ever buy a house etc on the wages I received. I would have much rather continued with horses but, even 30 years ago, it just wasn't economically viable for me - and the majority of horses were then owned by "rich" people or businesses. I don't think £1.50 is too much for picking out feet - I'd want at least that for doing it - but my personal circumstances would not allow another tenner a week on my bill.

I am not a cheapskate. I am self employed and my income is variable. My livery is due today and is going to be late as my July tax bill has completely cleaned out my coffers until the money I am owed starts to arrive. I have discussed this with my YO who is completely relaxed about when I pay and knows it will be paid in full as soon as the money comes in.

I knew that owning a horse was going to be hard financially so, when I was buying, I purposely looked for a "cheap to keep" type and that has worked out. His two vet bills this month will be covered when due but those are, touch wood, few and far between. I knew, also, that I could only afford DIY and no services and that, too, has worked out, with a great relationship with the livery who shares my field.

Should I have bought a horse in the first place? Well, it was the one thing in life I had always wanted. I'd had a lifetime of riding other people's and had had my old boy on loan for 16 years, until we lost him. I felt I had the knowledge to decide what I needed and how to keep it, I didn't have great expectations of being able to jump round Badminton, and I was prepared to compromise on other aspects of my life (like sleep!).

Frankly, I have months where I could afford full livery and months like this one where I can't afford to feed the family, let alone have any luxuries. When I do have good months, the money goes into the pot for vet's bills, rug cleaning or repairing, tack replacement or anything else that might be needed. At the moment (when it comes in) it will be set aside for diesel as my trips to the yard are about to go from 18 miles every day to about 100, thanks to expected roadworks. I also have a support network that means if I were ill or injured, I know my friends would ensure my horse's well being, and I have a hard-to-reach savings pot that will go with him to a friend if he out-lives me.

So, you could say that I am a cheapskate and one of the people who should not have a horse as they don't have the correct finances. However, he is my joy and my sanity and I value my yard, and YO, hugely as they are what enables it to happen. I may not be able to cough up in money terms but I am always happy to volunteer for fencing, muck shifting, helping with YO's horses and other animals and whatever needs doing that is within my capabilities.

i am in a similar position but have the same income all the time, a work pension and the state pension. sadly this means i often go without while my horse who is on diy, is checked on twice daily by me is groomed every day and has whatever she needs. she never goes without . i havent been away even for a weekend in over 15years and really dont have enough income to be a horse owner but dont know what i would do without a horse so i just have rather large credit card bills!!!!! i have a great YO who would help me if necessary and i help with her horses if needed so we have a good relationship...

 

[Goldenstar]

Um, I am one of those people who keeps a horse on a shoestring budget, of which more in a minute...

However, I sympathise entirely with the OP's decision. Having worked with horses in my youth, I took the decision to get a "proper" job as I knew there was no way I would be able to ever buy a house etc on the wages I received. I would have much rather continued with horses but, even 30 years ago, it just wasn't economically viable for me - and the majority of horses were then owned by "rich" people or businesses. I don't think £1.50 is too much for picking out feet - I'd want at least that for doing it - but my personal circumstances would not allow another tenner a week on my bill.

I am not a cheapskate. I am self employed and my income is variable. My livery is due today and is going to be late as my July tax bill has completely cleaned out my coffers until the money I am owed starts to arrive. I have discussed this with my YO who is completely relaxed about when I pay and knows it will be paid in full as soon as the money comes in.

I knew that owning a horse was going to be hard financially so, when I was buying, I purposely looked for a "cheap to keep" type and that has worked out. His two vet bills this month will be covered when due but those are, touch wood, few and far between. I knew, also, that I could only afford DIY and no services and that, too, has worked out, with a great relationship with the livery who shares my field.

Should I have bought a horse in the first place? Well, it was the one thing in life I had always wanted. I'd had a lifetime of riding other people's and had had my old boy on loan for 16 years, until we lost him. I felt I had the knowledge to decide what I needed and how to keep it, I didn't have great expectations of being able to jump round Badminton, and I was prepared to compromise on other aspects of my life (like sleep!).

Frankly, I have months where I could afford full livery and months like this one where I can't afford to feed the family, let alone have any luxuries. When I do have good months, the money goes into the pot for vet's bills, rug cleaning or repairing, tack replacement or anything else that might be needed. At the moment (when it comes in) it will be set aside for diesel as my trips to the yard are about to go from 18 miles every day to about 100, thanks to expected roadworks. I also have a support network that means if I were ill or injured, I know my friends would ensure my horse's well being, and I have a hard-to-reach savings pot that will go with him to a friend if he out-lives me.

So, you could say that I am a cheapskate and one of the people who should not have a horse as they don't have the correct finances. However, he is my joy and my sanity and I value my yard, and YO, hugely as they are what enables it to happen. I may not be able to cough up in money terms but I am always happy to volunteer for fencing, muck shifting, helping with YO's horses and other animals and whatever needs doing that is within my capabilities.

There's a big difference between being unable to afford an extra £10.50 a week to have your horses feet picked out so doing it yourself and saying it's an outrageous price that should be done for you for less .
One is being realistic and the other is cheapshake.

 

[jules9203]

OP I completely understand this. I have some DIY, Part and Full. I have some amazing liveries but its one or two of the DIY that are the hardest work for the least money. It has been a learning curve for me as a YO (I had experience of owning stables as well as being on livery) as I always wanted to create a 'haven' for the livery owners but have learnt the hard way that some will seriously take advantage and cause a seriously bad atmosphere. It doesn't come as a surprise anymore how much our experience can be under valued but I have developed a tough skin and if someone isn't prepared to pay my prices I know I don't want them on my yard.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

All the complaining little madams who come on here complaining and bitching about their dreaded YMs and YO's need to read this; now those on this yard with this incredibly hard-working, conscientious and dedicated YM will have to find themselves somewhere else pretty soon............ but I doubt if they'll learn even so.

Shame on you all!! I have no sympathy, it serves you right. You've just lost yourselves the best YM you'll ever have.

 

[tallyho!]

So sad... the implications of over-breeding reach far and wide

 

[Jericho]

the realities of running a perfect yard against the dream - I have always dreamed of being a YM but actually I know it would be exactly as you describe it. your username is perfect....

 

[HashRouge]

Unfortunately there is very little money in horses, no matter what area you work in. I spent two years as an SJ groom and was yard manager for one of those. If my pay had been relative to how hard I worked I would have been a very wealthy woman! It's sad really because I was a very good YM and I love working with competition horses, but I always knew it could never be my career as it just doesn't pay enough. I'm back helping out my old boss for the summer, before starting a new job in September, and I can't imagine there is anything I'd enjoy as much as this. But it just doesn't pay enough to build a life on. It is a sad truth for most of those who work with horses, I think.

 

[FFAQ]

Don't blame you in the slightest OP! Speaking as someone who handles hooves for a living, some horses should cost £1500 danger money!!

I meet a lot of people on livery yards, and it has made me infinitely glad that I do not run a livery yard (and so thankful that I rent from a local farmer). Yes, I do sometimes wish I had a school, and I moan about the gates that don't open once the cows have itched their bums on them, but my general attitude is that if something is a pain (like the gates), I will speak to the farmer and offer to buy a new gate. God knows the rent is cheap compared to everything that has been mentioned on this thread!

Thanks to livery yard and land owners like you, I am able to afford to keep my 3 horses healthy and happy. If you charged what you undoubtedly should it would be a very different story for me, so on behalf of people like me - thank you! And best of luck in whatever you turn your hand to next!

 

[Disillusioned]

Wow, I’ve really opened up the floodgates on this one!

Thank you all for such positive comments, both on here and via PM (I will respond to the PMs later). So many other posters have made really valid points – too many to mention but I will pick a few out.

Firstly, MiJods – on the whole, my liveries (and their horses!) are great. As far as I am aware they are all happy with the service they are getting. The ‘mutterings’ about the price rise I mentioned were eased when I explained why I had to do it. The main one was an owner with two horses – I think she was expecting me to waive it on one horse as some sort of multi-horse discount! My yard is a happy place where people can enjoy their horses without feeling they’re under constant scrutiny by others and there is no bitching or point-scoring.

Adorable Alice – you are unfortunately right about being unable to sustain a “rainy-day” fund. If a box is empty for a month or two, any reserves built up are soon eaten into.

The Fuzzy Furry – I think you are quite right in that a lot of people seem to expect livery to cost not much more than it did 20 years ago! I was discussing this recently with the manager of a yard I worked at about 15 years ago, who is very good at his job (I learnt a lot from him during my time there). His livery has increased by about 20% since I was there but most costs have gone up by much more than that so his margins are getting ever tighter. He made a very telling comment – “I really don’t make enough to care as much as I do about this yard. I’m seriously considering getting out too, I don’t want to get to the point where I stop caring.”

fatpiggy & ribbons – getting decent yard staff is also becoming more of an issue in the industry. As well as the loss of decent riding schools, I think the trend towards college based training is also having an effect. I did my training and exams as a working pupil, having previously done the riding school helper route as a child. Yes that involved being paid not much more than pocket money but I got such a good grounding from learning on a proper yard rather than a sterile college environment. Also, it meant that yards could afford to have more bodies on the yard and so have time to provide proper training. Colleges don’t seem to give their students a realistic idea of what to expect in the “real” horse world, in terms of both work load and earnings. (Rather ironic that all these years later, according to one poster I should only expect to be earning pocket money again!)

HaffiesRock – I think your post should be required reading for anyone who has issues with the cost of livery!

moleskinsmum – I wouldn’t call you a cheapskate owner, I’d call you realistic and sensible. You thought long and hard about getting your horse and realised that you would have to make sacrifices elsewhere to afford him. You have earned your horse and obviously have a true appreciation of your yard. I’m sure the DIY yard owners and managers reading this would love all their liveries to be like you!

Anyway.....

The deed is now done and I actually felt quite emotional when I handed my letter over. I have been in regular discussions with the yard owners about this being a possibility so it was not unexpected – they understand and respect my decision. I still feel a bit numb but also a weight is beginning to lift and there is a sense of relief kicking in. I don’t know yet what I’ll do long-term, but a friend in recruitment can get me short-term work while I sort my life out. More irony – I can earn what will initially seem like a small fortune for a Mon-Fri job which doesn’t require any specialist skills or knowledge and has no responsibility. Apparently there’s even paid overtime!

Although I am sad for my situation, I am also glad that this has provoked such a big response and hopefully this thread has made a few more people appreciate just how much their yard owners and managers actually do for them.

 

[fatpiggy]

If my parents hadn't bought land when my nana died nearly 30 years ago there is no way I could afford to keep a horse, not a chance. I'm in awe of anyone that does it tbh!!

We pay £15 a day for someone to check ours twice a day when we go away, and even though it is only to check they have a pulse and four legs visit I now feel like she's underpaid!

She is! I had to pay a private mobile groom £20 a day in 2001 (last time I had a holiday) to give my horse her pre-prepared morning feed, rug her and put her in the paddock just across the road, pick up the 3 poos she did overnight and change the water. Someone on the yard brought her in for me in the evenings (couldn't get anyone to do her in the mornings despite the fact that I attended to theirs all year round!)

 

[wingedhorse]

It is tricky. No one should work without profit margin.

But equally, I am currently assisted DIY, and I notice the additional cost of any extra services.

My yard is great, and the services are good. And we have to buy 7 days of turnout / bring in a week, to enable them to guarantee enough work for grooms.

My yard makes a net loss, but the yard owners own the land, and have company for their retired mare, and the grooms cover her care.

I have been on part livery / assisted livery where – feet aren’t picked out, mucking out not done well, hay and water and feed been forgotten (not all at same time). Injuries have been missed. And I am still paying.

It makes me very cynical, I largely went to DIY as I was fed up of paying for unreliable care. Then I got second horse which meant needed to stay DIY.

But good yards, were the standard of facilities, and care are good, and reliable are worth paying for.

I’m an accountant, and I don’t think many people can make money, on renting a yard, and offering livery, if they have to cover all the maintenance costs, and the rent.

Most yards, if cover cost of using land, maintenance, decent staff costs, decent facilities, decent bedding and forage, just cant make money. You need lots of land that you own, and to make own hay and straw, and have all the maintenance equipment on site, and then might make money.

 

[YorksG]

It is tricky. No one should work without profit margin.

But equally, I am currently assisted DIY, and I notice the additional cost of any extra services.

My yard is great, and the services are good. And we have to buy 7 days of turnout / bring in a week, to enable them to guarantee enough work for grooms.

My yard makes a net loss, but the yard owners own the land, and have company for their retired mare, and the grooms cover her care.

I have been on part livery / assisted livery where – feet aren’t picked out, mucking out not done well, hay and water and feed been forgotten (not all at same time). Injuries have been missed. And I am still paying.

It makes me very cynical, I largely went to DIY as I was fed up of paying for unreliable care. Then I got second horse which meant needed to stay DIY.

But good yards, were the standard of facilities, and care are good, and reliable are worth paying for.

I’m an accountant, and I don’t think many people can make money, on renting a yard, and offering livery, if they have to cover all the maintenance costs, and the rent.

Most yards, if cover cost of using land, maintenance, decent staff costs, decent facilities, decent bedding and forage, just cant make money. You need lots of land that you own, and to make own hay and straw, and have all the maintenance equipment on site, and then might make money.

The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. It really is astonishing. I often read posts on here where people appear to think that it is their right to own a horse and that all the people involved should subsidise what is a lifestyle choice! If their hobby was driving expensive cars, I'm pretty sure that they would not be expecting cheap fuel, or subsidised car parts!

 

[Cortez]

That's why I gave up having liverys over 20 years ago: pure slavery! Oh, and 25 years ago the average charge for basic (i.e. non-riding) livery in the US - where I happened to be at the time - was £800, which is at least more realistic.

 

[Stockers]

The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. It really is astonishing. I often read posts on here where people appear to think that it is their right to own a horse and that all the people involved should subsidise what is a lifestyle choice! If their hobby was driving expensive cars, I'm pretty sure that they would not be expecting cheap fuel, or subsidised car parts!

This - 100%. Other thing that galls me is the assumption that YOs' should and will put up with continuously late payment to the point where the livery clears abit owing but never gets up to date - therefore acting as an unpaid borowing facility. the YO on my former yard threw you out if you consistently had more than two weeks livery outstanding.

 

[wingedhorse]

The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. It really is astonishing. I often read posts on here where people appear to think that it is their right to own a horse and that all the people involved should subsidise what is a lifestyle choice! If their hobby was driving expensive cars, I'm pretty sure that they would not be expecting cheap fuel, or subsidised car parts!

Speaking as an accountant, no one should run a business, unless they have assessed total costs, what the typical prices of the competition in the area are, the and profit margins available, and decided if it is sustainable for them.

It is not the fault of people wanting cheaper services. Horses are backbreakingly expensive, and as an owner you have to balance cost effective with sufficient quality. I look very hard at all my variable horse costs, e.g. buy big hay bales, by bedding in bulk, minimise extra services etc.

You as the vet / farrier / yard owner / bodyworker – are in control of what prices you set, what standards you set and whether you can make a living or not.

For example, good farriers, who are reliable, with a good eye for foot balance, will almost always have a full book, irrespective of what they charge. They are in short supply.

In my experience, it is cheaper as a horse owner to have a very good farrier, that is GOOD, than to pay the associated vet and bodywork costs of having a substandard farrier!!

Same logic with saddlers and bodyworkers.

 

[C1airey]

I would think there has been no opportunity to earn enough to fund a private pension or any other form of 'old age/rainy day' pot.

And it's not just the pension pot. The nice man in payroll makes sure my income tax, NI and student loan repayments are paid. The nice man in payroll is paid a fair wage for what he does. OP either has to sit down and do their own accounts and tax return, or pay someone else to do it for them. Having recently toyed with the idea of jacking my own job in to work for myself, this was one big bucket of cold water which flooded my plans!

If liveries are unwilling to pay to have their horses' feet picked out, they are hardly going to pay for the time spent on yard admin, and yet it's as much a part of running the yard as turning out, bringing in, etc.

 

[JillA]

So now here is a question for you. My saddle fitter (prefers to be called a saddle ergonomist to distinguish her from the badly trained ones who just check the head) has been this morning, spent well over two hours watching me ride, adjusting tree and flocking, watching me ride again, measured, recorded and advised. How much would most of you be prepared to pay for that service including travelling from another part of the country? I'm genuinely interested in the replies, it isn't a trick question, along the lines of why should she train for years, spend time and money on transport and use a good two hours of her time unless it is for a decent living given all the points made above?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

So now here is a question for you. My saddle fitter (prefers to be called a saddle ergonomist to distinguish her from the badly trained ones who just check the head) has been this morning, spent two hours watching me ride, adjusting tree and flocking, watching me ride again, measured, recorded and advised. How much would most of you be prepared to pay for that service including travelling from another part of the country? I'm genuinely interested in the replies, it isn't a trick question, along the lines of why should she train for years, spend time and money on transport and use a good two hours of her time unless it is for a decent living given all the points made above?

Well if that was one of our employees, that would be £65 call out, inc the 1st half hour on site, £22.50 for the additional half hour, then £45 per hour thereafter, plus 'parts', all plus VAT............

 

[Goldenstar]

So now here is a question for you. My saddle fitter (prefers to be called a saddle ergonomist to distinguish her from the badly trained ones who just check the head) has been this morning, spent well over two hours watching me ride, adjusting tree and flocking, watching me ride again, measured, recorded and advised. How much would most of you be prepared to pay for that service including travelling from another part of the country? I'm genuinely interested in the replies, it isn't a trick question, along the lines of why should she train for years, spend time and money on transport and use a good two hours of her time unless it is for a decent living given all the points made above?

Around £150 depending on the travel cost .
Except with the silly title I would not let her through the gate .

 

[Red-1]

£150 is what I pay another horse specialist to come to my house. Fine bargain for what I get, but we don't splash out that often!

To be fair, she is here for 4 hours though.

 

[Cortez]

Around £150 depending on the travel cost .
Except with the silly title I would not let her through the gate .

Ha ha! My thoughts exactly

 

[applecart14]

Hooray good for you. Some people want to be given livery for free. I wouldn't have my own yard, not enough profit margin, too many arguments and lots of hassle all round. Not for me.

The post that I started (as is per usual) was taken out of context, blown up into some huge argument, my words were taken out of context, bit were added that I hadn't even said and people added to it with their own incredulous ramblings, and as usual I have been made to look like the devil in disguise

My initial post expressed my dismay that I had rung three livery yards and left voicemail messages (two of which I left a second voice mail with) and all three have still not come back to me! I also expressed dismay at the fact that a £38 livery per week would cost an additional £30 in summer and £40 in winter due to extras.

I am all for paying what I see as a reasonable amount to have my horse brought in or turned out but the examples I gave, were, in my opinion very expensive. Incidentally the picking out feet thing, I never even wanted anyway and did say that. On its own £1.50 some might say, may be a reasonable charge. But when you coulple it with the £2.00 to bring in the same horse AND THEN add the £1.50 - that's when I think its unfair. And £3 for throwing a ready prepared, already purchase and already wet tub of hay over a door when you are feeding all the other liveries their afternoon or lunch time tubs (come on!!!!). My last yard they did it for free as courtesy. Each lunchtime and at 10pm every night. FOC.

If people are going to quote me, or read my OP and respond I wish they would have the decency to read it properly in the first place.

 

[caileag]

Good point JillA. I work in the rail industry where we often have to use specialist contractors for a day or so for a bit of design/construction work. I know what the going rate for paying for any kind of specialism is ( a lot !) and am often amazed at how little people in the equine world actually charge for imparting their expertise. On the other hand though, I think there seems to be a certain amount of 'doing for the love of it' involved too, almost a vocation. Sadly I suppose if all equine professionals were to charge similar to industry standard then their work would soon dry up.

 

[ElleSkywalker]

JillA I think about 80 for the reflocking and advice etc and travel on top so depends how far she has travelled

 

[ester]

I think plenty of people read your post correctly AC14, it is disingenuous to suggest everyone didn't and I don't remember any sort of huge argument?
You deem £3 too expensive for a turnout or get in, though £2.50 was ok. People disagreed, such is life on the forum.
If I could only see to my horse at one end of the day I would think £30-40 a week quite reasonable which I think was the general consensus.

 

[smja]

On its own £1.50 some might say, may be a reasonable charge. But when you coulple it with the £2.00 to bring in the same horse AND THEN add the £1.50 - that's when I think its unfair.

Why is that unfair? They're different jobs - some overlap re: injuries/lost shoes I grant you, but you're paying for the groom's time.
At our yard it takes about 10 minutes to bring in as the field is pretty far away, and it's standard that all charges are separate (e.g. bring in, wash legs, pick feet, change rugs), because some people want them and others don't.

 

[applecart14]

For info, I am a long time forum user under a different name but needed to be anonymous for this.

There are many people with multiple accounts on this forum. They try to 'enforce' a point or brow beat others to insist their voice is heard by logging in and out under different user names and then come on and say... "Oh yes I agree with you about this, or that or the other". Not only is this against the rules of the forum but it is underhanded and unfair.

I am not suggesting that you are doing this but I hate this kind of thing as people should only have one account. I 've been on this forum for over six years, this is my second account and I only came off the first time because I felt uncomfortable about the amount of bullying and victimization that was going on at the time. I am now under my second user name which has all been logged with Admin and is all above board.

I know for a fact of at least four other individuals who all have more than one account and know of others who I suspect have at least three accounts. Admin are not as hot as they used to be at one point on this. Its really sad.

 

[Goldenstar]

Hooray good for you. Some people want to be given livery for free. I wouldn't have my own yard, not enough profit margin, too many arguments and lots of hassle all round. Not for me.

The post that I started (as is per usual) was taken out of context, blown up into some huge argument, my words were taken out of context, bit were added that I hadn't even said and people added to it with their own incredulous ramblings, and as usual I have been made to look like the devil in disguise

My initial post expressed my dismay that I had rung three livery yards and left voicemail messages (two of which I left a second voice mail with) and all three have still not come back to me! I also expressed dismay at the fact that a £38 livery per week would cost an additional £30 in summer and £40 in winter due to extras.

I am all for paying what I see as a reasonable amount to have my horse brought in or turned out but the examples I gave, were, in my opinion very expensive. Incidentally the picking out feet thing, I never even wanted anyway and did say that. On its own £1.50 some might say, may be a reasonable charge. But when you coulple it with the £2.00 to bring in the same horse AND THEN add the £1.50 - that's when I think its unfair. And £3 for throwing a ready prepared, already purchase and already wet tub of hay over a door when you are feeding all the other liveries their afternoon or lunch time tubs (come on!!!!). My last yard they did it for free as courtesy. Each lunchtime and at 10pm every night. FOC.

If people are going to quote me, or read my OP and respond I wish they would have the decency to read it properly in the first place.

No argument I just think it ridcoulous that you think that 3.50 is too expensive for some one to get a head collar walk to the field catch the horse get it out the gate take it in the stable tie it up get a hoof pick ,pick out its feet take the head collar off the horse put it away put the hoof pick away .
For the hay in the trug the person has to walk to your stable put the food in and walk back to what they are doing .
I think £3 is expensive for this however it may well be a service is needed at the time when the manger does not really want to provide the service hence the high cost .

 

[ester]

If you aren't suggesting the OP is doing that why bring it up? I would think it pretty fair of her not to want her liveries to find out via an online platform?
Plenty of people use second accounts for personal and sensitive matters in the clubhouse and no one minds as the reasons are clear once you have a bit of RL connection with other members.

But yes, admin don't seem particularly fussed about multiple accounts unless used for clear trolling, or banned members returning tbh, I guess that is their perogative.

 

[applecart14]

The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. !

Nobody thinks that. You have read it and that is YOUR interpretation of things. BUt that is so not the case. Everyone is looking for the best deal around, its called being savvy with money. Just because people do that doesn't mean to say that they expect to be subsidized.