Why I'm giving up - a YM's perspective

[Disillusioned]

FrankieCob - I agree too. Though my sums did add up when I started out but certainly don't now.

Another occasional gripe on this forum is of "greedy" yard owners/managers taking in too many horses. It is more likely that these extra horses are what keeps the yard going. I could have increased my income by taking in 2 or 3 supervised grass liveries, but then I would have been overstocking the grazing and it would actually have created quite a lot more work. It was something I seriously considered though. Maybe I should have been greedy and kept my yard?

 

[skint1]

You sound too principled to do something that would be of detriment to.the horses in your care. I'm really so sorry you're in this situation, I think you sound like a great ym.

 

[Leo Walker]

I could have increased my income by taking in 2 or 3 supervised grass liveries, but then I would have been overstocking the grazing and it would actually have created quite a lot more work. It was something I seriously considered though. Maybe I should have been greedy and kept my yard?

I think the way to go for small yards is to set up track systems. Lots and lots and lots of leisure riders have under worked horses that just cannot cope with normal grazing. But you can run probably 5 x the horses on a track system than you could any other way on a small acreage. You can have them all of full livery but have much less work to actually do to keep them all happy and you are in charge of the day to day welfare so you know they all have good standards of care. You can then use your spare stables/acreage to bring in schooling/selling liveries to make your income up to a reasonable level.

I seriously considered it 18 months ago, and even renting the property I could have covered my costs easily and made a small profit. i would still have kept my day job on, which would have been doable, but if I was able to back and school or do rehab livery etc, I could have made a reasonable living. In the end we bought a house so didnt pursue it, but I costed it out very carefully and it would have worked out considerably better than any other sort of livery in this area on rented property and completely subsided my horse.

Its not a dissimilar business model to a previous poster who offers "expensive" but very good quality grass livery. At the end of the day, if you dont own the land and cant make traditional livery work then you need to look at alternatives that boost your income and reduce the labour, that can be large scale DIY or small scale grass livery for fatties. But for either of those you still need good facilities, and that is the crux point for a lot of people. There arent many places with good facilities and to put them in costs mega bucks!

 

[SpottyMare]

I've not been on here for a while and this is the first thread I clicked on. OP - I don't blame you! Running a yard seems to be quite a thankless task, and there does seem to be an expectation from some quarters that 'everyone' has a right to own a horse, regardless of whether they can afford it or not. Although scrimping oneself to fulfil a dream of owning a horse, and expecting someone else to scrimp and reduce their charges for services that one wants provided are two entirely different things...

I love my livery yard. It costs me £350 per month for 2 horses (inc hay but not bedding) DIY, with services provided as extras if you need them. It has an adequate, small school and phenomenal hacking. All year turn out. No rules apart from checking your horse at least once a day. Everything (hay making etc) is done in house. The main benefit of this yard though, is the knowledge and experience of the owners, who are more than worth their weight in gold. More to the point, the horses are happy. I think it's a bargain, and if they put the prices up would stay there

But then (even though I have never owned land etc) I understand that good services should not be undervalued. It seems that more and more people don't consider the context of the service being provided, or understand that one is not just paying for a 'thing', but for all the other items that 'thing' is dependent on in order to exist. Where one can see that the standard of care is high, and the surroundings are maintained well, then one shouldn't quibble over paying a fair price that allows the person working full time to make an income. It's ridiculous. I have to admit to being completely gobsmacked by the comment that you should only expect to make pocket money. Really? For providing a good service while working (probably) more hours than would be expected in an office job? I'd be out of the building at warp speed should my employer ever suggest that to me...

 

[marmalade76]

Side line? poppycock!! That is a joke it is a FULL time job owning and running/working a yard, how could we do another job in between of running a yard morning and after noon and evening???

So why is the OP giving up? She's giving up because she can't make it pay. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the way it is. You could charge what you think it's worth, but you would have very little custom so the business would still be unsustainable.

It can work as a sideline to another business, ie, farming, have the land, all the maintenance equipment already owned and on site, own hay, straw, etc, that works. It can work if you own the property and you're business savvy, for example one of our customers - he insists all his liveries (40 box yard which he owns) buy all their hay from him. He buys all his hay from us and marks up every bale buy at least a pound and sells it to the liveries. He makes a pound or more on every bale without lifting a finger! That's good business!

As for a full time job, that's only if you do full or assisted, we have several friends and customers who do little more than collect the money and the odd bit of maintenance.

 

[DD]

Did livery many years ago. Made some good friends. Had others leave owing money. Wouldnt do it again. Cant charge anything like enough.And on the topic of prices, some may remember buying hay years ago, mid 1970s. I discovered that what we were paying then for a small bale equates to around £10 per small bay today, get its available for £3 near to me. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
sp hay should be £10 and straw £5 a small bale. We make our own hay and people ask us to do their small paddocks. no way, its just not worth the sweat and hastle.
Used to get shavings for next to nothing though and now its around £7 a bale.

 

[pixie]

This has just come up on my facebook feed:

Excellent hacking/ post & rail fencing / 40 x 20 outdoor school / well maintained paddocks / jumps / toilet / central to competition venues.
Full Livery - 7 days a week, full muck out, turnout & bring in, rug change, hay, straw bedding, basic feed £60 a week.

How can that be viable? How can yard owners charge anything like enough to cover their costs when people are charging so little?

 

[palo1]

It's a really sad thing to say so tin hat on...'cheap' or averagely affordable livery often results in necessarily poor land and horse management and allows people who really, honestly cannot afford a horse to keep one. Not always, of course but the truth is that horses need decent, secure fencing, well managed ( whether rocket fuel or low energy native grass) grazing, safe shelter, appropriate hoof and health care and insurance or savings in case of veterinary needs. The cost of euthanasia is not even that cheap! That is before you even think of tack, rugs and any technical training or expertise you may need. The last 20 years has seen an explosion in the number of leisure riders/novice horse owners, often hoping to keep horses on a shoestring. It can work, especially for experienced and knowledgeable people but as others have said, the basic necessities of keeping land in a decent state and feeding decent basic forage cost a lot of money.

You see so many awful and sometimes even squalid livery yards, with miles of dangerous fencing, knackered grazing and poor, inappropriate feed being given, all to cater for owners who really perhaps can't afford a horse. It is almost impossible for a livery yard to provide anything sustainable, clean, safe and appropriate for horses at the level of cost that so many people have set as their limit. It must be especially galling when livery owners/ managers,watch their clients buying smart New rugs, tack, treats etc, shoeing when not needed and forking out for expensive lessons or entering class after class at local shows.

Horses deserve decent care and those working in the industry deserve to be able to make a real living. If more people were prepared to charge a sensible price for livery, it would probably make a significant improvement to horse and human welfare in so many ways. The industry and potential and existing owners need to get real about the real cost of keeping a horse, even in a very basic way.

 

[pixie]

And more and more yards will go out of business...

 

[JillA]

It's pretty much all employment in the equine industry, well, the hands on part anyway. 30 years ago a girl I know who had spent a year being treated like a slave working to learn in a well known local stables went to work in Germany. They value their stable staff there and she was well paid, given a car for her use, lovely accommodation, good working conditions and generally respected as a valued member of staff.
Here this year someone I know who has her own yard, good horses, the best of everything including several foreign holidays a year (thanks to family money!) was offering below minimum wage for a relief groom to do stable chores (unsupervised) for a couple of days. I don't know if she found someone but there were people offering to do it for nothing because they were fans/friends. That's the reality yards here are up against

 

[marmalade76]

Did livery many years ago. Made some good friends. Had others leave owing money. Wouldnt do it again. Cant charge anything like enough.And on the topic of prices, some may remember buying hay years ago, mid 1970s. I discovered that what we were paying then for a small bale equates to around £10 per small bay today, get its available for £3 near to me. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
sp hay should be £10 and straw £5 a small bale. We make our own hay and people ask us to do their small paddocks. no way, its just not worth the sweat and hastle.
Used to get shavings for next to nothing though and now its around £7 a bale.

Exactly! My husband makes hay and I would never dare work out how much per hour he earns doing it. If you took what it sells for and removed all costs - machinery - cost of buying, maintenance, repairs, replacements like tyres, grease, oil, fuel, twine, insurance, buying grass crops (yes, it is a crop and you have to buy it if you don't own the land, grass is not free!) and paying people to help him, if you took the profit and divided it between all the hours he spends making it I'm sure he'd be on well under the minimum wage. You wouldn't work it out because if you did you'd give up! Why don't we charge what it's really worth? Because no one would buy it and the same applies to livery!

 

[DD]

Well said marmalade76

 

[DD]

It's a really sad thing to say so tin hat on...'cheap' or averagely affordable livery often results in necessarily poor land and horse management and allows people who really, honestly cannot afford a horse to keep one. Not always, of course but the truth is that horses need decent, secure fencing, well managed ( whether rocket fuel or low energy native grass) grazing, safe shelter, appropriate hoof and health care and insurance or savings in case of veterinary needs. The cost of euthanasia is not even that cheap! That is before you even think of tack, rugs and any technical training or expertise you may need. The last 20 years has seen an explosion in the number of leisure riders/novice horse owners, often hoping to keep horses on a shoestring. It can work, especially for experienced and knowledgeable people but as others have said, the basic necessities of keeping land in a decent state and feeding decent basic forage cost a lot of money.

You see so many awful and sometimes even squalid livery yards, with miles of dangerous fencing, knackered grazing and poor, inappropriate feed being given, all to cater for owners who really perhaps can't afford a horse. It is almost impossible for a livery yard to provide anything sustainable, clean, safe and appropriate for horses at the level of cost that so many people have set as their limit. It must be especially galling when livery owners/ managers,watch their clients buying smart New rugs, tack, treats etc, shoeing when not needed and forking out for expensive lessons or entering class after class at local shows.

Horses deserve decent care and those working in the industry deserve to be able to make a real living. If more people were prepared to charge a sensible price for livery, it would probably make a significant improvement to horse and human welfare in so many ways. The industry and potential and existing owners need to get real about the real cost of keeping a horse, even in a very basic way.

^^^^^^
great post. Agree.

 

[dominobrown]

^^^^^^
great post. Agree.

Seconded!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

This whole thread just somehow makes me feel very sad........ we seem to be in an age of instant this, instant that, and good old-fashioned Horsemen of the old school (and I naturally include women in that) seem to be light-years away now.

I am talking about the people I looked up to in my youth: the DC's of the Pony Club, the people that had grown up with horses and ridden before they could walk, and would tell you what a horse was going to do before it knew itself. Natural horsemanship (the real stuff) through and through, but no-one called it that then, coz it meant that good horses were bred then and not a lot of rubbish, horses were kept at yards where people knew what they were doing, people learnt to ride properly and not just the slap-on-the-saddle and flop your backside across the saddle style of nowadays.

I think the OP is one of these very precious people who are unfortunately a dying breed. People expect a full livery service at DIY rates!! and the horses are the ones who suffer.

I just despair sometimes, I really do........

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

There have been many great and valid points made on this thread. I so have on gripe, the people who slate cheaper livery, those who say it allows unsuitable people to keep horses, yes it may but it also helps people like myself on low incomes keep their horses and make sure they have everything they need. I must have a one in a million yard that is both cheap, safe, great grazing, barefoot orientated, beautiful hay made on site by the farmer and an stable ideal for my horse and all affordable to one one on a single income of less that 18k and who is living in a private sector rented flat and has to run a car. Trust me it's a bloody hard exercise. My boy would have to be PTS if I wasn't able to find a yard as good and cheap as mine is. It's a godsend.

Maybe down in England things are different but up here we seem to have more of a choice I'd you are willing to compromise.

 

[marmalade76]

There have been many great and valid points made on this thread. I so have on gripe, the people who slate cheaper livery, those who say it allows unsuitable people to keep horses, yes it may but it also helps people like myself on low incomes keep their horses and make sure they have everything they need. I must have a one in a million yard that is both cheap, safe, great grazing, barefoot orientated, beautiful hay made on site by the farmer and an stable ideal for my horse and all affordable to one one on a single income of less that 18k and who is living in a private sector rented flat and has to run a car. Trust me it's a bloody hard exercise. My boy would have to be PTS if I wasn't able to find a yard as good and cheap as mine is. It's a godsend.

Maybe down in England things are different but up here we seem to have more of a choice I'd you are willing to compromise.

It does seem that those of us who keep our horses on a budget are being made to feel bad about it. I also have to keep mine on a budget but am in a different position, due to my husband's contacts I am able to keep mine on a friend's farm so don't have to use a livery yard but if it weren't for that I'd be the same as you.

 

[DD]

reading JillA's thread I can understand just why the YM of this thread is giving up. Nightmare.

 

[honetpot]

There is nothing wrong with keeping horses on a budget, in my experience a lot of what people think they need is totally unnecessary and more due to fashion and peer pressure.
Its when people expect a facilities or a service and are not prepared to pay the provider what they need to cover their costs and hopefully make some sort of profit.
A farmer with and integrated business that uses land they already own and hay they already produce may be able provide a cheaper product, which is great but with land prices and rents as they are that can not be a normal situation.
I can remember 40 years ago when I got my first pony, hay was £1 a bale and my grass livery rent was £5 a week. and we had second sets of shoes at £5 at set. My vets call out was £18, but it covered the first half hour. I think its actually more affordable to keep a horse now.

 

[SEL]

Having relocated and moved to my current yard it amazes me how many people want to keep horses on cheap livery but are happy to splash out on yet another colour coordinated set of rugs, numnahs blah, blah, blah. One of my horses is expensive to keep because of her dietary requirements so that's where my money goes. She has rugs picked up in the sales and only when her other ones don't do their job any longer. If I need the yard to do work for me I don't begrudge paying them for it (the £2 for hanging hay nets out so I can have a lie in on a Saturday is absolutely worth it!).

But I'm in the minority at the yard where most of the DIY liveries seem to expect the yard to bring their horses in for the farrier, vet etc for free. If they go on holiday they ask other liveries to keep an eye on their horse, but then its the yard who have to step in if something goes wrong. We have horses left in fields for days on end without their owners checking up on them.

Any suggestion of the livery fees going up is met by 'but the facilities here aren't good enough' - which is true (fencing & field management is shocking), but its a bit of a vicious circle. Without liveries properly paying their way the yard will never have enough cash to reinvest.