Why is not turning horses out over winter becoming normal?

[fidleyspromise]

I had no idea this was a thing until I went to work on a show jumpers yard. At 17, early 2000s I was horrified. Around 40 horses in 24/7. They were mucked out while in stables.
I think I rode 5 times in 8 weeks - an hours hack in walk or a jumping lesson from YO.
No consistency for those horses. I've no idea if they belonged to stables or were on livery.

Competition horses were in big, airy stables in a barn with a very wide aisle and Still no turnout. Very occasionally a horse would get loose in the arena while mucking out.
There were multitudes of fields around us with horses in belonging to the stables - they were not checked weekly never mind daily, we were out one week picking ragwort from one of the fields.

I do think the combination of clay fields and wet means a lot of owners choose stabling.

.....
Phrases such as 'duvet day' in reference to horses need to not be normalized. 'Snug', 'Tucked up in bed', 'Cosy' etc are not words that should be associated with horses.
Mine also live out 24/7 365, but I am lucky to have enough land to manage that. If didn’t then I would have an open barn with access to the fields or, at very worst, a large surfaced pen.

My own live out 24/7 but when I didn't have shelter I would bring them in one night a week or for a duvet day if it was lashing down and windy. I tended to watch weather and pick the day that was worst on the forecast. (One horse won't wear a rug). This let their hooves dry so they kept in good condition and weren't wet all the time so although I called it duvet day there were practical reasons for them being in. I do get what your saying regarding these terms being normalised.

I love where I am now: sandy soil, a 3 acre plus a 1 acre paddock, 2 shelters each with lockable tackroom so I have a tackroom plus feed room. I can make my fields work for my horses. Even better is hacking directly across a road.

One of my horses HATES being stabled, one loves it and the other I suspect would not be a fan. - The New Forest hates cold, wet weather and would rather be in. She also refuses to wear a rug. (My partner put her in shelter to eat and forgot to let her out. Poor beggar was in for about 10 hours without food, hay or water. Rubber mats down so no straw to eat and when I let her out next day she ate her food and stayed in the shelter. I led her out to make sure she wasn't stuck mentally). She's also the reason I went for the one acre field - she no longer goes in the shelter. She can go in but has a thing about coming back out. They need to step over a sleeper but the new paddock has nothing to step over and is more sheltered.

The Highland loves her shelter but don't shut her in please for long periods. She's OK for about an hour but would much rather be tied up outside the shelter. She is now 22 so gets rugged too. (This time 2 years ago she was in 200g, this year she is clipped and in a rainsheet so it's very month dependent with her as to how she's treated).

At the slightest hint of rain the Arab canters to the shelter. He's not rugged yet as he's young, fluffy and uses the shelter. If he starts to drop weight he'll get rugged or if it's raining heavily or continuously for 24 hours.

I looked at one yard but horses HAD to live in overnight in winter and I wouldn't do that to my Highland. I imagine her behaviour would have become atrocious if I did.

 

[Tarragon]

Don't assume that all turn out has to involve a grassy/muddy field. Turn out into an all weather area with friends to play with and something to munch on is still turn out. So, to say horses have no turn out between say November and March, doesn't necessarily mean they are not turned out at all ;-)

(I have field kept-ponies, so that isn't me. But I just wanted to point out that the wording of your OP can start a heated discussion around a rather ambiguous statement)

 

[suestowford]

I keep mine out all the time. They do have some hardstanding and a shed to use if they want to get out of the wet. Last winter was awful - abscesses, mud, we even had pond slime form in the standing water. Not seen that before in the 25 yrs we've lived here. But the field recovered, as it always does. I don't have too many on it though, and they are ponies so their feet are quite small therefore they are not scooping out half a bucketful with every footfall.

When I lived in London, none of the yards offered turnout every day, and that was last century.

 

[Horsegirl25]

Don't assume that all turn out has to involve a grassy/muddy field. Turn out into an all weather area with friends to play with and something to munch on is still turn out. So, to say horses have no turn out between say November and March, doesn't necessarily mean they are not turned out at all ;-)

(I have field kept-ponies, so that isn't me. But I just wanted to point out that the wording of your OP can start a heated discussion around a rather ambiguous statement)

Hi, yes I did mean no turn out at all not no turn out as in not on grass but in a hard stand/sand paddock.
My original post was for a discussion on when it became ‘normal’ for horses from Shetland’s to competition horses to be stables 24/7 in the winter and by that I mean no turnout on a sand paddock/hard stand OR grass field which as mentioned in the original post is what I have come across at a yard x

 

[meleeka]

I don't think it is a new thing.

I grew up in the peak district where my parents had their stud. Part of their income was made from full liveries (no other options - just full) and stallions coming in to stand at stud. One of the reasons their place was a yard of choice over others in the area is that they insisted that EVERY animal had turnout time EVERY day. The stallions got the short end of the stick in spring and summer due to security/safety but they still had turn out and then in their stallion pens (shelter and yard area) for a change of scenery which kept them content. The only time ponies didn't get out was when the yard was frozen as it was dangerous.

I don't think things have moved on much for stallions. I know several that never get to run in a field.

An acquaintance doesn't turn out at all during the winter as she doesn't want to deal with mud. She has plenty of land and is obsessed about having grass all year, which she does have, but only because her horses are stood in stables looking at it . They go out for a few hours in summer because she says leaving them out makes them too tired to ride. I haven't the heart to tell her that's not tired, it's contentment, instead of the coiled springs she usually has.

 

[Horsegirl25]

Thank you for all your interesting thoughts on this!
It was something that popped into my head while I done my jobs this morning and thought it would be a good topic for discussion!
Where I am (livery yard) we are allowed 24/7 in the summer months (April-October) then November to start of April the horses go out during the day and in at night however many people choose to not turn out at all during that time apart from a 10 minute run in the school while they muck out (we do not have a hard standing/ sand paddock for them to stay in for long period of time in place of a field)

 

[meleeka]

Another thing to mention is the lack of forage in fields. If my only choices were a stable or a wet, muddy field with nothing to eat all day, I can see why people wouldn't bother turning out. IMO not having something going through the gut most of the time is also a welfare issue, so I wouldn't put exercise and companionship over that.

 

[Michen]

I know a yard who does no turnout year round
They have no fields at all
You can just turnout in the arena when you’re there

This is a lot of barns in the desert type areas of USA

 

[dorsetladette]

I don't think things have moved on much for stallions. I know several that never try to run in a field.

An acquaintance doesn't turn out at all during the winter as she doesn't want to deal with mud. She has plenty of land and is obsessed about having grass all year, which she does have, but only because her horses are stood in stables looking at it . They go out for a few hours in summer because she says leaving them out makes them too tired to ride. I haven't the heart to tell
her that's not tired, it's contentment, instead of the coiled springs she usually has.

Yes unfortunately I think my parents set up was the exception to the rule.

An agree I'd much prefer to ride a working stallion after he's had a morning out rolling in the mud rather than stuck in a stable going out of his mind. They still have a bounce in their step - it's just a happy one rather than a mental one.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Mine are out 24//7 and have barely used their shelter since the Spring, only on a couple of very hot days have they used it to get out of the sun. Like many others we've had heavy rain here the past week and they would still prefer to sleep on wet grass than a dry bed of clean hay. I'd rather a little mud and happy horses than perfectly clean, stressed animals kept in little boxes that would be deemed unacceptable in a zoo.

 

[JFTDWS]

Another thing to mention is the lack of forage in fields. If my only choices were a stable or a wet, muddy field with nothing to eat all day, I can see why people wouldn't bother turning out. IMO not having something going through the gut most of the time is also a welfare issue, so I wouldn't put exercise and companionship over that.

But this is an artificial problem - there are many reasonable ways to provide forage in fields if the land owner / horse owner are willing to do it.

 

[TheMule]

But this is an artificial problem - there are many reasonable ways to provide forage in fields if the land owner / horse owner are willing to do it.

Absolutely this- it is not an excuse to not turn horses out. Forage, freedom and friendship are non-negotiable essentials

 

[fidleyspromise]

Thank you for all your interesting thoughts on this!
It was something that popped into my head while I done my jobs this morning and thought it would be a good topic for discussion!
Where I am (livery yard) we are allowed 24/7 in the summer months (April-October) then November to start of April the horses go out during the day and in at night however many people choose to not turn out at all during that time apart from a 10 minute run in the school while they muck out (we do not have a hard standing/ sand paddock for them to stay in for long period of time in place of a fie

My friend had similar years ago.
She had 2 horses and a friend there so they let the 3 out in the turnout pen for 1.5 hours a day while they mucked their horses out etc. Each horse was allowed half an hour out so they combined theirs. No-one else did.

 

[SpeedyPony]

I've never understood the prohibition on hay/forage in fields that some places have- I can understand a reluctance to use a round feeder/constantly feed in the one place, but if the hay is put out in multiple spots and these are rotated it evens out the traffic on the field. Failing that, an all weather/sand/hard standing area for feeding would seem like a good idea.
I suppose I can see in a DIY situation it can become a hassle when some liveries will undoubtedly take the mick and just bung it over the fence in the same place every day, but it's not an excuse to ban forage in the field IMO.

 

[blitznbobs]

I've never understood the prohibition on hay/forage in fields that some places have- I can understand a reluctance to use a round feeder/constantly feed in the one place, but if the hay is put out in multiple spots and these are rotated it evens out the traffic on the field. Failing that, an all weather/sand/hard standing area for feeding would seem like a good idea.
I suppose I can see in a DIY situation it can become a hassle when some liveries will undoubtedly take the mick and just bung it over the fence in the same place every day, but it's not an excuse to ban forage in the field IMO.

It’s to do with planning permission - perfectly ok to graze horses on agricultural land , much greyer to feed them on it.. and agricultural land changed to equestrian land foregoes its tax exempt status for IHT

And I just put in a very small all weather paddock (15 x 40) and it cost best part of 10k in materials and we have heavy plant machinery on site … might explain a lot of land owners reluctance…

 

[Carrottom]

I find the problem is that if horses are not turned out daily, then when they do go out they hoon about and are likely to injure themselves. If they go out daily this is less likely.
We had a week of sheet ice a couple of years ago. Nothing could go out of the yard as it was too dangerous. We dreaded the day it thawed but after a few laps of the field they did settle down

 

[SpeedyPony]

It’s to do with planning permission - perfectly ok to graze horses on agricultural land , much greyer to feed them on it.. and agricultural land changed to equestrian land foregoes its tax exempt status for IHT

But that also appears to apply to rugging them- https://www.battens.co.uk/insights/the-do-s-and-don-ts-of-buying-land-for-horses
I haven't heard of any of these yards banning rugs though. I would imagine (hope) that animal welfare trumps planning, or failing that the landowner could surely loophole it by bunging some sheep out with the horses?

 

[honetpot]

It's a sad reflection of society that they would be willing to deprive a sociable herd animal it’s right to exercise its basic instincts. It can be tricky with the amount of land available for grazing decreasing all of the time, but there are ways around it (group housing in barns, stables with pens attached, turnout pens, surfaced tracks etc)
Phrases such as 'duvet day' in reference to horses need to not be normalized. 'Snug', 'Tucked up in bed', 'Cosy' etc are not words that should be associated with horses.
Mine also live out 24/7 365, but I am lucky to have enough land to manage that. If didn’t then I would have an open barn with access to the fields or, at very worst, a large surfaced pen.

Mine have been stood out all day in the rain, when they have a nice cosy large barn to shelter in.
I think some of it is what is seen a good outdoor enviroment, I have been at livery where they have had fetlock deep mud, with a dry area to stand on to eat and rest, but to some people that looks terrible. Some years my thrash paddock at home has looked like an arena for mud wrestling, with mud literally dripping off them, a lot of people would be appalled, but none of them have had mud fever or had an injury from playing in it.
I can understand peoples concerns, a moderate horse is now very expensive, so they want to protect their investment, yet everything we know about resilience in bones shows that exercise increases bone density, and micro trama reinforces ligament attachements, standing in a stable is for most of the day, and then doing work, not controlled exercise is going to create an equine couch potatoe liable to injury.

How to Support Bone Strength in Horses: [Exercise & Nutrition] | Mad Barn

Bones, joint cartilage, ligaments, and tendons make up your horse's skeletal system, which provides structural support for your horse's body. Most horse owners pay close attention to the role of joints and soft tissue health in preserving soundness and comfort. But bone strength is just as...

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Few people would want to pay livery for turnout on 2-3 acres of mud, because its a large chunk of their income, and they want the best, and muddy paddocks are a hard sell. I have just sold my internal stables because I no longer use them, I think if you have restricted space housing in groups of perhaps four, gived them more freedon on not much more area them four 12x12 stables and at least if they are kept in they more active. Basically keep them like young cattle.

 

[saddlesore]

I guess it must depend on where you live. I’ve had horses for over 30yrs and have never been expected to keep them in over winter. They have mostly offered herd turnout 24/7 through summer and in overnight in the winter. A previous yard and my current yard allow herd turnout 24/7/365 so from my experience it’s not normal practice

 

[mariew]

I've never understood the prohibition on hay/forage in fields that some places have- I can understand a reluctance to use a round feeder/constantly feed in the one place, but if the hay is put out in multiple spots and these are rotated it evens out the traffic on the field. Failing that, an all weather/sand/hard standing area for feeding would seem like a good idea.
I suppose I can see in a DIY situation it can become a hassle when some liveries will undoubtedly take the mick and just bung it over the fence in the same place every day, but it's not an excuse to ban forage in the field IMO.

Playing devil's advocate hay in fields can sometimes cause injuries if you have dominant horses chasing others around. Also unless you put them in haynets/away from a muddy floor you tend to waste a lot of hay/money.

Funnily enough my old horse put herself on no turnout regime for 2 months a year that was bad and the fields were mud soup. She point blank refused to go out and I didn't have time to argue with her

It's not a new thing, in fact it think nowadays people are much more aware of horses needing turnout and they get more than when I was a teenager.

 

[blitznbobs]

But that also appears to apply to rugging them- https://www.battens.co.uk/insights/the-do-s-and-don-ts-of-buying-land-for-horses
I haven't heard of any of these yards banning rugs though. I would imagine (hope) that animal welfare trumps planning, or failing that the landowner could surely loophole it by bunging some sheep out with the horses?

Land round here sells at the moment for around 22,000 per acre... so if you have 50 acres that's over a million pounds so IHT will be getting on for 500k... I am sure most landowners would chuck the horses off before they would risk their kids getting that tax bill.

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses need proper space to move in , like acres so many horses never see a paddock that’s more than a postage stamp .
Hards standings and the like while better than nothing are still sub optimal care .

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Far more people are now lucky enough to own a horse than 50 or so years ago. Then land was plentiful and privately owned horses were far less than these days. Mine have all lived out 24/7 365 with either man made shelter or natural shelter for at least the last 40 years of ownership. If I couldn't do that I would not have kept horses but I appreciate I have been fortunate with availability of land and not everybody has that opportunity to keep as naturally as I choose to do so.

That is just my personal preference for the welfare of my horses and donkeys. I have never lost a horse to colic, we only had a very mild colic once in all those years and it was soon rectified when we removed clover from that particular field. I also never had any serious field injuries or ulcers to deal with to name but a few of the common problems that crop up with our horses these days. Now I no longer have horses I keep my two remaining donkeys up at the house in a relatively small paddock, they are still going to be out 24/7 but we are preparing sheltered hard standing that they can access as and when they choose and they still have access to good natural shelter on multiple sides.

 

[Goldenstar]

Land round here sells at the moment for around 22,000 per acre... so if you have 50 acres that's over a million pounds so IHT will be getting on for 500k... I am sure most landowners would chuck the horses off before they would risk their kids getting that tax bill.

Quite .

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I've known several people that bring their horses in when the clocks change in October and don't turn out until spring. I always thought it wasn't fair on the horses but they all coped fine. I have the option to turn out every day which I do 24/7 in summer but I only turn out for a few hours a day in winter. One horse gets bad mud fever, the other hates being out for long!! I think all you can do is your best with what you have. We would all like mud free 365 days a year turnout I'm sure!!

 

[SpeedyPony]

Playing devil's advocate hay in fields can sometimes cause injuries if you have dominant horses chasing others around. Also unless you put them in haynets/away from a muddy floor you tend to waste a lot of hay/money.

Funnily enough my old horse put herself on no turnout regime for 2 months a year that was bad and the fields were mud soup. She point blank refused to go out and I didn't have time to argue with her

It's not a new thing, in fact it think nowadays people are much more aware of horses needing turnout and they get more than when I was a teenager.

If you feed appropriately (more piles/haynets than horses) and have a settled herd that can largely be avoided though (appreciate the latter is harder on a yard with people coming and going).
As for waste, I agree it's painful, but there are ways to mitigate it, nets/rotating feeding areas to limit poaching etc, although a certain amount is inevitable. To my mind, that's just the cost of keeping horses in a species appropriate manner. I understand that it's expensive, I've just bought my first full load of haylage for the year and I'd like all of it to go down the horses, but I have to factor in a certain amount of wastage in as the cost of having contented, healthy horses.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Just a thread for discussion..

What is the reason people chose to not turn out over winter AT ALL, I don't mean a few days in because of awful weather.
I know a few people that once the clocks change in October the horses are in and don't see a field until the clocks change again in Spring.
I get the whole, trying to save the fields etc and that some yards don't allow winter turnout so you don't have a choice but there is people I know that don't have anything nice to say about people that turnout over winter and I can't wrap my head around it!
I appreciate that the weather in the UK isn't the best and yes there will be mud but what are the genuine reasons that people chose to stable 24/7 for 5 ish months?

I could never do that - horses are designed to be out, fields recover in spring. The most hours stay in is 1 or 2 days a year.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Land round here sells at the moment for around 22,000 per acre... so if you have 50 acres that's over a million pounds so IHT will be getting on for 500k... I am sure most landowners would chuck the horses off before they would risk their kids getting that tax bill.

I can understand why grazing/yards are disappearing as a result of that, but not why they are refusing to give hay but not (or at least not that I've heard) refusing to allow rugging? Is it because owners (reasonably) won't put up with leaving their horses unrugged but will (less reasonably) allow them to go for large portions of the day without forage?
Or have the planning officers decided that they will turn a blind eye to rugging but draw the line at people actually feeding their animals?

 

[southerncomfort]

Re hay in fields. I once had a farmer friend come to harrow my winter grazing. He told me to leave any uneaten hay on the ground as the harrows shake out the grass seed.

A nice cheap way of reseeding!

 

[catembi]

My fields are heavy clay & they are unusable in winter. My four are on a large area of hard standing with free access to 6 rubber matted stables, each with a hay net. If turned out, my fields would be a mud slide virtually instantly. On my first very memorable winter here, we didn't have facilities and OMG the mud. The horses hated being knee deep in it all the time, & it's not as if there was anything to eat up there. It's not ideal, but at least they are not pulling tendons in deep mud or getting mud fever. Their legs & feet stay clean & dry & they can eat haylage 24/7.