Why is not turning horses out over winter becoming normal?

JFTDWS

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My fields are heavy clay & they are unusable in winter. My four are on a large area of hard standing with free access to 6 rubber matted stables, each with a hay net. If turned out, my fields would be a mud slide virtually instantly. On my first very memorable winter here, we didn't have facilities and OMG the mud. The horses hated being knee deep in it all the time, & it's not as if there was anything to eat up there. It's not ideal, but at least they are not pulling tendons in deep mud or getting mud fever. Their legs & feet stay clean & dry & they can eat haylage 24/7.
They may not have a huge amount of space but set ups like this (and variants on it) are a better compromise than stabling by a long way. They have some freedom to move around - considerably more than in a stable - and the freedom to interact with other horses.

The alternative to being stabled isn’t necessarily a muddy field with no forage - there are a lot of reasonable solutions for different circumstances.
 

Esmae

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Our horses come in at night in the wintertime and go out in the day. Currently they are still out 24/7. I almost wanted to fetch them in this morning but when I went to check them out they were all grazing by the hedge under a tree without a care in the world so I left them be. I am lucky in that we don't really do mud here. Land is very free draining. At the moment there are puddles and ponds everywhere but by tomorrow night, if it stops raining it will have drained away. I have one paddock (the December paddock) that gets thoroughly trashed every year. It always recovers. I like them to come in and I think they always seem to appreciate getting out of the bad weather so they can relax and just quietly munch. I had one retired polo pony who would point blank refuse to go outside in rough weather. He said he had no need to prove any form of hardiness thank you. Years ago (60 odd) it was the norm for working horses to be stabled and never go out to graze. That was my earliest memory.
 

LEC

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I have lived in the same place my whole life. In winter it always was easy to turn out as many cold frosts and just not the level of rain. Now it’s impossible (global warming deniers make me cross) - we are on Somerset levels and they are just swamped now so cope by having all weather turnout pens. Also we don’t have any horses which are non ridden (well a mini Shetland but she doesn’t count!) as they would not cope and it’s not fair to them. I have seen a huge change in winter in last 20 years.
 

Bobthecob15

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My fields are heavy clay & they are unusable in winter. My four are on a large area of hard standing with free access to 6 rubber matted stables, each with a hay net. If turned out, my fields would be a mud slide virtually instantly. On my first very memorable winter here, we didn't have facilities and OMG the mud. The horses hated being knee deep in it all the time, & it's not as if there was anything to eat up there. It's not ideal, but at least they are not pulling tendons in deep mud or getting mud fever. Their legs & feet stay clean & dry & they can eat haylage 24/7.
Can totally sympathise, our yard is on heavy clay too and the fields are virtually unusable in winter. Ours go out in pairs for 2-3 hours each day either on the turnout area with hay and access to a bit of paddock, the rest of the time they go on the horsewalker, loose in the arena 2 or so times a day. They cope pretty well, they love their stables! The mud is so deep it’s pretty hazardous, we also worry about tendon injuries, mud fever etc.

I think unless you’ve been on clay turnout it’s easy to say they need to be out whatever etc…reality is somewhat different on boggy clay!

Out of interest when I was a kid 30 odd years ago and again at a livery yard with clay soil, ours were in from late October to March! No walkers or anything we just rode most days and they occasionally went in the arena loose. We had loads of turnout it just wasn’t safe to use till spring
 

Miss_Millie

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I have lived in the same place my whole life. In winter it always was easy to turn out as many cold frosts and just not the level of rain. Now it’s impossible (global warming deniers make me cross) - we are on Somerset levels and they are just swamped now so cope by having all weather turnout pens. Also we don’t have any horses which are non ridden (well a mini Shetland but she doesn’t count!) as they would not cope and it’s not fair to them. I have seen a huge change in winter in last 20 years.

It is a scary time to be alive with climate change, even in the past 5 years the weather patterns have changed dramatically. It's heartbreaking.
 

Kaylum

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Ours have 5 loafing areas. All have field shelters and the donkeys have a massive barn in theirs. We have grass fields and a track system. Keep all areas clean and poo pick everyday possible. They all have their own stables. We still get mud in parts but can move them around to suit. Good planning is the key. We don't have a lot of land, but it's well managed.
 

scats

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I also dislike that more people are turning to individual turnout and having horses on their own. I know there are people who will swear blind that their horse is fine/needs to be on its own, and I understand that may be the case for aggressive types, but the majority of horses should have a field friend.
Humans do a lot of things for their own convenience, and I think in many cases, this is one.
 

Trickywooo

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I know that I am very lucky to be able to say that we have daily turnout over winter November - March and 24/7 turnout April - October.
I personally would not keep my horses at a yard that didn't offer some form of daily turnout 365 days a year. In my opinion no amount of exercise or riding can make up for lack of turnout.
I don't mean to offend and I know some people live in areas where they have no choice. But it is just one of my non negotiables when it comes to picking a yard.
I think all yards should offer some form of turnout even if it is in a small sand paddock or school. For me it's a welfare issue if they don't. I also dislike the growing trend of individual turnout. Horses are naturally social animals and the majority benefit from being able to interact with other horses.
 

SatansLittleHelper

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Mine live out 24/7 with a field shelter that they never bother to use lol. Last year it was awful, the ground was saturated and horrid but the horses didn't seem too bothered. This year we have hardstanding put down and a fence being built so that we can shut them onto the hardstanding with shelter overnight if the weather is terrible just to save the field a little.
I wouldn't have horses if I had to keep them trapped in stables for months of the year. I realise some people have no choice with yard rules etc but personally I think it's a serious welfare issue.
 

Horsegirl25

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I also dislike that more people are turning to individual turnout and having horses on their own. I know there are people who will swear blind that their horse is fine/needs to be on its own, and I understand that may be the case for aggressive types, but the majority of horses should have a field friend.
Humans do a lot of things for their own convenience, and I think in many cases, this is one.
I used to be one of those people that preferred individual turnout until I got my mare last year who point blank would not go in the field without a friend, she is now paired with my other horse and after a bit of back and forth working out field dynamics between them I would not go back to separate turn out!
They are much more relaxed in a pair and it is also nice to see them grooming/playing together, just being horses in general!
 

AShetlandBitMeOnce

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It's always a culture shock going from summer routine to winter routine, but I am incredibly lucky that we do have daily turnout all through winter 7:30-4 as we are on sandy soil and the YM manages it well. If it's super icy, or really hideous they will stay in but it's maybe 5 days total, and occasionally they will come in at 2 if it's miserable.

I struggled last year with it as Dex wasn't backed and I was worried about stabling a big youngster overnight without wanting to do too much with him on baby legs/joints, but did as much groundwork/mind occupying things as I could and YM was as accommodating as she could be... on that note, and after reading this thread, I think I may go and buy her some wine and chocolate! We are very lucky.
 

Jinx94

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Tris is in a dirt pen as we were dealing with low grade laminitis all year round. Muzzling might sound like a great idea to a lot of people but he hates it and trying to get it on is extremely stressful for both of us. I've spent hours on positive reinforcement but he absolutely does not want it on his face.

I keep him out as much as possible, however none of our fields are very sheltered and his pen definitely isn't. He is currently coming in overnight for some respite because it is so wet out there and we haven't had enough rain for our stables to flood again (plus YO is now doing their best to get the issues sorted). When it was peeing down yesterday, I kept him in and will do if we have days that are particularly gross but he will be back to 24/7 if it goes cold and dry (keeping everything crossed).

Overstocking the land is a major issue with turnout in general and unfortunately there are getting to be fewer and fewer yards out there due to the cost of providing livery. With more and more people wanting/needing lower cost livery, the overstocking issue will only get worse.

Horses with plenty of food don't necessarily trash the land as much and certainly go through fences less but that would require additional hay being fed in the fields which would push livery prices higher.

Unfortunately it's a juggling act :(
 

MagicMelon

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It's a sad reflection of society that they would be willing to deprive a sociable herd animal it’s right to exercise its basic instincts. It can be tricky with the amount of land available for grazing decreasing all of the time, but there are ways around it (group housing in barns, stables with pens attached, turnout pens, surfaced tracks etc)
Phrases such as 'duvet day' in reference to horses need to not be normalized. 'Snug', 'Tucked up in bed', 'Cosy' etc are not words that should be associated with horses.
Mine also live out 24/7 365, but I am lucky to have enough land to manage that. If didn’t then I would have an open barn with access to the fields or, at very worst, a large surfaced pen.

Agree. Hate when people think their horses "want for nothing" and they provide such an amazing home for the horse because they have amazing stables and facilities when actually the horse is bored to death standing in a stable all day, rarely allowed to graze/socialise/get dirty. Its so sad.

Mine live out 24/7 365. I put in a big area of hardcore with a stable block on top in their field when I moved in. I made the stables 18x18 so they're much bigger than usual and the doors are fastened open so they can come in and out whenever they like. The hay is tied up under the stables overhang and because theyre standing on the hardcore, its a great escape from the mud. My fields free draining so the mud is never as bad as so many others I see.

Id struggle to want to own a horse if I had to put him at livery where they demanded stabling, especially all winter - thats just awful.
 

MagicMelon

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I don't think things have moved on much for stallions. I know several that never get to run in a field. :(

An acquaintance doesn't turn out at all during the winter as she doesn't want to deal with mud. She has plenty of land and is obsessed about having grass all year, which she does have, but only because her horses are stood in stables looking at it 🙄. They go out for a few hours in summer because she says leaving them out makes them too tired to ride. I haven't the heart to tell her that's not tired, it's contentment, instead of the coiled springs she usually has.

Thats the saddest thing, cant believe she thinks them being out makes them "too tired to ride". What a nutcase!
 

maisie06

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Just a thread for discussion..

What is the reason people chose to not turn out over winter AT ALL, I don't mean a few days in because of awful weather.
I know a few people that once the clocks change in October the horses are in and don't see a field until the clocks change again in Spring.
I get the whole, trying to save the fields etc and that some yards don't allow winter turnout so you don't have a choice but there is people I know that don't have anything nice to say about people that turnout over winter and I can't wrap my head around it!
I appreciate that the weather in the UK isn't the best and yes there will be mud but what are the genuine reasons that people chose to stable 24/7 for 5 ish months?
personally I think it's cruel.
 

Cloball

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I do think with less land, more rain (and fatter horses 🫣) we need to get more creative with how we keep horses. They don't HAVE to be on big grassy fields. You could make more use of less land with surfaces tracks that wouldn't turn to mud but that would require a lot of investment and drastic changes to our planning in the UK. I have seen some gorgeous tracks in the Nederland's with trees, hedges, shelters and herb planting that looks a lot more horse friendly but doesn't take up 'that' much space. Although being social media it's probably not real. You'd think planning would prefer that of mud baths with sunken haylage bales and ugly electric fencing 🤷 would potentially be better for biodiversity as well. I just don't see it. Being very realistic which is sad.
 

Birker2020

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I moved to a yard where I had asked previously if they did 365 turnout and was assured they did.
However, turnout to them was out in a sand paddock for six months of the year. So I basically had no choice.
My horse didn't seem to mind - he had an injury at the time so it was beneficial to him that he wasn't trudging through thick bog with a bad leg.
 

Taliesan

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I think it shouldn't be the norm as horses need to be allowed to be horses - being stuck in a small box for the vast majority of the day is a serious welfare concern from my point of view. People wouldn't dream of leaving their dogs in crates all day for their own convenience - so why do they feel it is OK to do with their horses? I could also expend this line of thinking to those that are stabled a lot throughout the year and only have individual turnout. (Again, some horses may need and benefit from this, but it should not be the norm of what is offered.)

I saw a livery yard advert on Facebook the other day and not a single part of it was about the horse living conditions - it was all about the facilities for the humans. I found it hugely depressing to read.

That isn't to say that being turned out in muddy, boggy and slippery fields is great for their welfare either. I think the reality is that most livery yards are overstocked, as they need the horses to bring the money in as charging the rates needed to accommodate the land on less horses would probably make more ownership unaffordable for more people, and to save the land they insist that the horses have to be in.

If yards don't want horses turned out in the fields over winter then they need to ensure that there is adequate turnout of another type to satisfy the horses' need for friends, forage and freedom. Be this a large sand area, hardstanding area or some sort of surfaced track that they can meander around.

All horses are like us in that they have their own preferences and desires. Some may want to be out in all weathers, some may want to avoid the wind, others the rain and some the sun. As their humans we need to know who they are as individuals and make sure their preferences are catered for.

But, we also need to be mindful of how they feel in their bodies, and minds, affect their preferences. When I first got my ex-racer he hated the rain. If there was so much of a drop he would get enraged and be desperate to come in. One could have written him off as a "typical inclement-weather-phobic TB". Actually, it was his ulcers making his skin sensitive. I've helped the ulcers and he loves being out in the rain now. In fact, he will make a conscious choice to go out in the rain even when he is in his barn. (I have a big barn with an outdoor area that both of my boys share when they are not in their field.)

Ultimately, I think that people need to remember that horses are horses - not humans. Their bodies are designed for them to be able to operate in a far wider temperature range than ours and they also have different needs to what we might perceive them needing through the human lens through which we examine their lives.

If horses do have to remain in their stables for whatever reason, then the people responsible for them should provide as much enrichment as possible to make their stable as interesting as possible. That should be the norm. Sadly, horse enrichment is still a really niche area. Although I am seeing more companies and people get into it - my belief is that adequate (and varied) enrichment for the stable should be part of the bare minimum humans provide for horses that have to remain in if the yard owner is stipulating reduced winter turnout.
 

ElleSkywalkingintheair

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I've always historically turned out over night and brought in in the day as I didn't have enough land for horses to be out 24/7 in the winter. I now do so appart from my elderly shetlands, the rest are out 24/7. It's also a great way to get weight off them, far better than muzzles, restricted turns out, soaked hay, part feeding straw etc a bit of healthy neglect (said jokingly, they have shelter and forage just not being brought in for hours at a time) means they drop a huge amount weight over the winter that they can then put back on over the summer.......as horses are designed to do.

If I ever had enough land I would do winter herd turn out livery for this very reason. Also the horses are so much calmer and happier out 24/7.

I can understand livery yards wanting to preserve land, but until people are happy to pay costs that will allow yards to have less liveries, I can't see things changing and can see reduced turn out becoming more and more common and all the problems it brings with it
 

JFTDWS

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The interesting thing about the “people aren’t willing to pay enough to reduce stocking density” argument is that in my experience the more you pay, the less turnout you get.

Budget liveries seem to have a more realistic approach to land management, high price point liveries focus on facilities for the human - multiple arenas, wash boxes, nice living room areas (I have no idea why these are desirable on a yard) etc, at the expense of horse welfare.

It isn’t something I’ve ever been able to understand - it seems entirely counterintuitive. It might be that someone willing to pay £600 pcm for livery wants the flashy stuff and not the horse stuff, but I’ve never seen anyone offering the alternative for them to demonstrate that.
 

Jambarissa

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I agree, the higher the price the more swanky the facilities but the horse end is generally around keeping the horse 'safe' and pristine and riding ready.

I think there is a market for higher cost horse-centric livery.

I guess the good track liveries go part of the way, they're expensive and not necessarily the best way to keep horses but a lot better than most winter management.
 

SEL

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I do think with less land, more rain (and fatter horses 🫣) we need to get more creative with how we keep horses. They don't HAVE to be on big grassy fields. You could make more use of less land with surfaces tracks that wouldn't turn to mud but that would require a lot of investment and drastic changes to our planning in the UK. I have seen some gorgeous tracks in the Nederland's with trees, hedges, shelters and herb planting that looks a lot more horse friendly but doesn't take up 'that' much space. Although being social media it's probably not real. You'd think planning would prefer that of mud baths with sunken haylage bales and ugly electric fencing 🤷 would potentially be better for biodiversity as well. I just don't see it. Being very realistic which is sad.
A friend has recently found a fabulous track system for her metabolic retiree. They've made use of an existing old track by a canal (well fenced off obviously), have some grass areas, some hardcore and a large barn. Its not entirely grass free because there are weedy bits, hedgerows, banks etc. Its not the sterile track you see at many of the track liveries. Its what I would build for myself if funds were unlimited and planning laws less prohibitive. I'd wind it round the perimeter of my fields with gates into the fields at various points.

But even if I got the lottery win the planners would have a hissy fit at the surfacing, despite allocating many, many acres of land to housing up the road.
 

Cloball

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It's silly isn't it as equestrian land isn't agricultural so is should have more leeway with equestrianism in mind. I'm all for trying to add more biodiversity and enrichment rather than rectangles of fenced paddocks. We should be encouraged by planners to put (horse friendly) native trees and hedgerows back in, solar panels on barns and shelters. It should be a beneficial relationship with environmental targets etc.

There's a lady in the Nederland's who has 3 horses on 1.5 acres turned into tracks with hedges, trees, little meadows, hills, sandpit, ponds etc. its aesthetically very pleasing, good for wild life and looks easy to manage, the horses can have a good leg stretch down the tracks. The only way I could see you doing that sort of thing here was if you did it on your (very large) garden and it would probably cost a fortune.
 

Polos Mum

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high price point liveries focus on facilities for the human - multiple arenas, wash boxes, nice living room areas (I have no idea why these are desirable on a yard) etc, at the expense of horse welfare.

As I flick through the mega top end horse properties for sale (just in case the lottery ticket - that I don't buy! - comes in)
I often see tiny circular individual turnout pens with walk ways all the way around - at studs and racing yards mostly but pretty common.

They look very beautiful and must cost a fortune to install / maintain - cutting the grass all the way around etc.
But the horses couldn't touch each other even over a fence and certainly couldn't have a good blast about.
Yes it's turnout but in a very sterile environment

I ponder how much of my lottery win would be needed to pull it all out !
 
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