Why it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses

You need to explain that homeopathy does work for humans. It works because the average consultation is so hugely longer than conventional appointments with the doctors. In other words, it's a talking therapy. Animals can't talk, so it's unethical on animals. It's homeopathic medicine which is a placebo, but the feeling that someone is finally really listening to them cures a lot of people!
 
Well it worked very well for my horse when I used it and my vet was perfectly well aware that I used it on her. The practice where my cat goes has a homeopathic-trained MRCVS person too. I was in the difficult position of having a horse with a lifelong problem which needed daily drugs which neatly blocked just about any other drug you could possibly want to use including important things like bute, so homeopathy was an option I had to try. In Europe, many GPs have homeopathic training and use it routinely as my sister discovered when she lived in Germany. She was a sceptic too until she saw the results.
 
fatpiggy said:
Well it worked very well for my horse when I used it and my vet was perfectly well aware that I used it on her. The practice where my cat goes has a homeopathic-trained MRCVS person too. I was in the difficult position of having a horse with a lifelong problem which needed daily drugs which neatly blocked just about any other drug you could possibly want to use including important things like bute, so homeopathy was an option I had to try.
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Glad you saw an improvement in your horse. Many long-term health problems have good weeks and bad weeks, they wax and wane, so sometimes when giving any treatment, including homeopathy, they appear to improve. Anecdotal stories about times when treatments appeared to work can seem convincing but it is the reason that vets and doctors have to rely on evidenced based medicine which takes into account the well run clinical trials involving thousands of patients rather than their own personal experience.

Did you read the article?
 
Homeopathy is based on the concept that diluting a version of a substance that causes illness has healing properties.
Isn't this true of the flu vacinne that contains flu? Or botox injections which contain botulism? Who would claim that arnica that comes in tablet form, cream form, lotion form and just about every form that the horse goods manufacturers can use it in is unethical?

These are the top ten homeopathic remedies for humans and at some time during our lives I can bet that most of us have used one or more on either ourselves or our horses.

Allium cepa (onion): Because it is known to cause tearing of the eyes and dripping of the nose, it is a frequent remedy for the common cold and hay fever, especially when there is a thin, watery, and burning nasal discharge that irritates the nostrils. Typically, the person's symptoms are worse in a warm room and are relieved in a cool room or in the open air.

Arnica (mountain daisy): This is the #1 remedy in sports medicine and first aid. It is used for shock and trauma from injury. It also helps to reduce pain from injury and to speed the healing process. Whether you're into competitive sports or exercise regularly or if you simply don't like to feel the pain of an injury, Arnica is the place to start.

Chamomilla (chamomille): Many parents owe their sleep to homeopathy, not because it helps them directly, but because it is so good for their infant. Chamomilla is THE remedy for the irritable infant, especially from teething or colic. The infant cries incessantly, and nothing seems to provide any relief, except carrying them, and even then, the crying begins recurs as soon as the parent puts the child down.

Hypericum (St. John's wort): This remedy is the first medicine to consider for injuries to the nerves or to parts of the body rich with them, including the fingers, toes, and back. Any injury with shooting pains should be given this remedy.

Ignatia (St. Ignatius bean): One day this remedy will be used by the majority of psychiatrists. It is one of the leading homeopathic medicines for acute grief, anxiety, and depression, especially after a death or separation from a loved one. The person sighs frequently, has a lump in the throat, and may tremble.

Magnesia phosphorica (phosphate of magnesia): This is the most effective remedy for cramps, including menstrual cramps. It has helped prevent many women turn from Dr. Jekkyl into Ms. Hyde as a result of menstrual cramps. It is particularly indicated when a woman's cramps cause her to bend over and when they experience some relief from warm applications.

Nux vomica (poison nut): This is the premier medicine for ailments exacerbated by conventional or recreational drugs. It is also a common remedy for treating symptoms of overeating or from drinking too much alcohol. Considering how many people have these vices, this is an all too frequent medicine today.

Pulsatilla (windflower): Perhaps the most commommon remedy given to both children and women, this medicine is not indicated for a specific disease but for a specific pattern of physical symptoms and psychological characteristics. Physically, these people are warm-blooded: they wear less clothes than others, prefer open air, and don't feel as well in the heat. Psychologically, they are a gentle, mind, and yielding person, with a quickly changing emotional state and a strong tendency to want to please others.

Rhus tox (poison ivy): This medicine is the most common remedy for sprains and strains. It is especially indicated when a person experiences a "rusty gate" syndrome, that is, pain on initial motion which is reduced the more the person continues to move. It is also often given to people with the flu or arthritis who experience this similar rusty gate syndrome.
 
Danny Vet said:
Glad you saw an improvement in your horse. Many long-term health problems have good weeks and bad weeks, they wax and wane, so sometimes when giving any treatment, including homeopathy, they appear to improve. Anecdotal stories about times when treatments appeared to work can seem convincing but it is the reason that vets and doctors have to rely on evidenced based medicine which takes into account the well run clinical trials involving thousands of patients rather than their own personal experience.

Did you read the article?
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I certainly didn't treat the long-term problem with homeopathy, that wouldn't have been a good idea as it was life-threatening. The homeopathy was used for lymphangitis and insect bite reactions (I still use it on myself for the latter as I swell up like a balloon and it beats antihistamines into a cocked hat). So the response was seen within 3 or 4 hours. No conventional treatment could be used apart from antibiotics. On one occasion she had a bite somewhere which resulted in something that looked like a dog's scrotum hanging off her chest. 6 weeks later it hadn't changed a jot so I thought I'd try the homeopathy and within 2 days it was completely gone.
 
Our cat is on a homeopathic (could be herbal....) treatment as the vets basically had nothing they could do for him, and trying something is better than nothing. He essentially has the cat version of cushings as I understand it which is essentially unheard of in cats.
 
The fact is that homeopathic preparations at higher dilution levels (higher dilution, or "potency" is supposed to make them stronger) contain no more molecules of the original substance. That is very different from a vaccine, which contains a killed or weakened version of the virus in measurable amounts, so the body can form antibodies against the virus. The comparison just doesn't hold.
I am pretty sure that some of the apparent effectiveness when treating animals is also down to a transference of the placebo effect, i.e. the animal picks up on the human's state of mind/emotion and responds to it.

In any case, I wouldn't want to stop anybody from using homeopathy as a complementary treatment alongside conventional treatment if they so choose, and pay for the treatment themselves. I see danger where people will refuse their animals proven conventional treatment in favour of (unproven) homeopathy, or where the general population has to carry the cost of such treatment (as is the case with insurance paying for it in e.g. Germany).
 
supsup said:
In any case, I wouldn't want to stop anybody from using homeopathy as a complementary treatment alongside conventional treatment if they so choose, and pay for the treatment themselves. I see danger where people will refuse their animals proven conventional treatment in favour of (unproven) homeopathy, or where the general population has to carry the cost of such treatment (as is the case with insurance paying for it in e.g. Germany).
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I won't sign the petition because denying the option of homeopathy removes peoples autonomy. I see that as 'unethical'. I'm cynical about homeopathy these days but I have seen and experienced it apparently working on numerous occasions. I had four home births with homeopathy and without conventional medicine - I'm prepared to accept that it may have had a placebo effect in those instances, yet I've seen it appear to work on children and animals too. So, if people would like to try homeopathy before conventional medicine, in non life threatening circumstances (in which case I'm sure most people would do whatever it takes, conventional or otherwise), I fully support that choice being available via and supported by their vet.
 
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JFTD said:
There's no point arguing with willful ignorance ;) Fwiw, I signed your petition, Danny.
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Err, excuse me is that directed at me? What have I said which makes you think I am ignorant???

I didn't say herbal was the same as homeopathic. Neither did I say i agreed or disagreed with it. I have not researched it so I do not know. I have used arnica and rhus tox on my horse before which I obtained from a Health Food Shop for various injuries.

Every remedy I have mentioned is classed as homeopathic. Why do you say I am ignorant - please explain???
 
I have recently helped a vet friend put down a young, pregnant mare that had been "treated" homoeopathically by her owner. In my opinion the owner should be prosecuted for wilful neglect and abuse.

Herbal medicine (which used in the past to be just "medicine") can have therapeutic affects, homeopathy is a different thing altogether (read the information on the link. I have signed).
 
applecart14 said:
Err, excuse me is that directed at me? What have I said which makes you think I am ignorant???

I didn't say herbal was the same as homeopathic. Neither did I say i agreed or disagreed with it. I have not researched it so I do not know. I have used arnica and rhus tox on my horse before which I obtained from a Health Food Shop for various injuries.

Every remedy I have mentioned is classed as homeopathic. Why do you say I am ignorant - please explain???
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I think maybe it's the crossover between herbalism and homeopathy which is causing confusion. Arnica (as you know but others might not) can be either a homeopathic or herbal remedy, for e.g. ��
 
Homeopathy is based on the concept that diluting a version of a substance that causes illness has healing properties.
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To a degree where there is none of the substance actually left.
Isn't this true of the flu vacinne that contains flu?
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Yes, a flue vaccine contains flue. A homeopathic remedy has none of the actual substance let - just water.
Or botox injections which contain botulism?
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ditto.
Who would claim that arnica that comes in tablet form, cream form, lotion form and just about every form that the horse goods manufacturers can use it in is unethical?
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No-one - on the basis that the tablets, creams etc. actually include some of the active ingredient - arnica. Homeopathic arnica is diluted so much as to contain none of the active ingredients. Just expensive water, as far as I understand.
 
The difference between herbalism and homeopathy is in the way in which the substance is administered. Herbalism, if you want to call it that, is also the basis of some modern medicines (aspirin, for instance).
 
applecart14 said:
Who said it was?
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It was clear from your comments on arnica creams and lotions that you are confused between the two. The arnica creams and lotions you can buy for horse and human are herbal, not homeopathic - ie they actually contain quantifiable amounts of arnica extract.
 
Cortez said:
The difference between herbalism and homeopathy is in the way in which the substance is administered. Herbalism, if you want to call it that, is also the basis of some modern medicines (aspirin, for instance).
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It's been called that since the 1800s �� just going with the flow.
 
Lucyad said:
Homeopathic arnica is diluted so much as to contain none of the active ingredients. Just expensive water, as far as I understand.
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If homeopathic remedies are just expensive water (and I don't have a view either way really) then I can't see how it is un-ethical to use them on horses if the owners choose to. Never heard of water doing any harm to a horse! I can't read the original link (facebook blocked at work), maybe someone could explain?
 
TGM said:
Herbal is not the same as homeopathy!
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laura_nash said:
If homeopathic remedies are just expensive water (and I don't have a view either way really) then I can't see how it is un-ethical to use them on horses if the owners choose to. Never heard of water doing any harm to a horse! I can't read the original link (facebook blocked at work), maybe someone could explain?
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I think what people are getting at, is that it gives people false hope. Its bad if people put off say chemotherapy in the hope that homeopathic will work instead. When they eventually find out that it doesn't work (if this is the case) then it is far to late to go down the chemotherapy route.
 
applecart14 said:
I think what people are getting at, is that it gives people false hope. Its bad if people put off say chemotherapy in the hope that homeopathic will work instead. When they eventually find out that it doesn't work (if this is the case) then it is far to late to go down the chemotherapy route.
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So the title should be that it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses instead of proven treatments for serious health issues if proven treatments exist? If so then I agree, but not sure why homeopathy has been singled out as surely its the same for any un-proved therapy (whether alternative or conventional).
 
The water won't do the horse any harm, but the withholding of other treatment in the misguided belief that the water will fix a medical problem could be construed as unethical. As could the fact that the vet has charged for what is, essentially water.
 
Homeopathy has three beliefs:
-like cures like, e.g. if you have Ebola you should be given more Ebola
- water has memory, water retains a memory of substances it has come into contact with (imagine all the **** water remembers coming into contact with every time you drink a glass of water)
- the more you dilute a substance the stronger its effect, e.g. the famous homeopathic beer, one drop of beer in a pint of water can give you alcohol poisoning!

It is blatantly utter rubbish.

According to its own tenets it must come in water form, so, by definition, there are no things such as homeopathic tablets.
 
laura_nash said:
If homeopathic remedies are just expensive water (and I don't have a view either way really) then I can't see how it is un-ethical to use them on horses if the owners choose to. Never heard of water doing any harm to a horse! I can't read the original link (facebook blocked at work), maybe someone could explain?
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Hi Laura,

You are correct to say that the homeopathic remedies are ineffective so do no harm. They can indirectly cause great harm because often they are given instead of a drug which has been proven to work. SO for example, there is an effective treatment for Cushings disease in horses. People who try to treat Cushings disease with what is effectively expensive water will no be treating the disease at all, the horse will eventually suffer and the owner's money will be wasted.

But you're correct, the homeopathy itself won't do any harm, but the fact that people are led to believe that it can substitute for proper treatment is very sad. I am sure that if the majority of people knew what homeopathy actually was they wouldn't even try it, but they get it confused with "natural" or "herbal" medicine, which it isn't.

Here is the same Facebook article which has been published by another website so you can read it! http://www.theonlinevet.co.uk/advic...-vets-using-homeopathy-in-less-than-2-minutes

The British Equine Veterinary Association (BEVA) are supporting this campaign.
 
laura_nash said:
So the title should be that it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses instead of proven treatments for serious health issues if proven treatments exist? If so then I agree, but not sure why homeopathy has been singled out as surely its the same for any un-proved therapy (whether alternative or conventional).
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There are many unproven therapies, but homeopathy itself has been researched thoroughly and been proven to have no effect for any disease in humans beyond placebo. This is why the NHS are looking at blacklisting it as it doesn't work and is a waste of taxpayers money.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx
 
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