Why it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses

[chillipup]

Thanks Danny..signed. Just what is the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons reasoning to continue to permit vets to practice homeopathy on their patients?

The link below is a very recent example of how badly things can turn out....


www.vettimes.co.uk/news/mbe-vet-prosecuted-for-animal-cruelty/

 

[spacefaer]

I had an unrideable headshaker, diagnosed as having a pollen allergy. He was prescribed homeopathic tablets by a vet, a combination of 6 to be taken daily - 4 lots to be taken every day, 2 to be taken twice a week. On this regime, he became rideable, with no headshaking and he evented to Advanced level. If I ran out of one of the tablets, he began to get twitchy. If I stopped giving them to him, he became unrideable again.

No placebo as he didn't know he was taking them, and without them, he started headshaking within a very short time. Go figure....

 

[Amicus]

I don't understand homeopathy and can't see myself using it as it has no evidence but banning vets from using it seems more likely to create the situation of using homeopathy instead of conventional medicine rather then using homeopathy as a compliment or when conventional medicine can't be used due to drug interactions. As long as vets are honest about the lack of evidence I see no harm. One thing everyone can agree on is homeopathy won't in itself cause harm and there are other treatment with limited evidence that do cause harm, why pick on homeopathy

 

[Booboos]

Up

I had an unrideable headshaker, diagnosed as having a pollen allergy. He was prescribed homeopathic tablets by a vet, a combination of 6 to be taken daily - 4 lots to be taken every day, 2 to be taken twice a week. On this regime, he became rideable, with no headshaking and he evented to Advanced level. If I ran out of one of the tablets, he began to get twitchy. If I stopped giving them to him, he became unrideable again.

No placebo as he didn't know he was taking them, and without them, he started headshaking within a very short time. Go figure....

It cannot have been homeopathy if it was in tablet form. Homeopathy is only water...tablets don't remember as well!

Is it possible that you had no clue what you were feeding your horse?

Bangs on head on wall.

 

[NZJenny]

What Booboos said. My understanding is that homeopathy is water, not tablets. Therefore, if it was tablets, it was something else.

 

[Gloi]

I had an unrideable headshaker, diagnosed as having a pollen allergy. He was prescribed homeopathic tablets by a vet, a combination of 6 to be taken daily - 4 lots to be taken every day, 2 to be taken twice a week. On this regime, he became rideable, with no headshaking and he evented to Advanced level. If I ran out of one of the tablets, he began to get twitchy. If I stopped giving them to him, he became unrideable again.

No placebo as he didn't know he was taking them, and without them, he started headshaking within a very short time. Go figure....

The pollen allergy tablets could have been something like this, Not homeopathic but immunotherapy giving a amall dose of the allergen to build up an immunity to it.This is an example of a human tablet.
http://allergicliving.com/2014/04/16/new-grass-allergy-treatments-reach-the-u-s/

 

[EQUIDAE]

The pollen allergy tablets could have been something like this, Not homeopathic but immunotherapy giving a amall dose of the allergen to build up an immunity to it.This is an example of a human tablet.
http://allergicliving.com/2014/04/16/new-grass-allergy-treatments-reach-the-u-s/

You can do this by feeding local honey to lessen hayfever.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It cannot have been homeopathy if it was in tablet form. Homeopathy is only water...tablets don't remember as well!

Is it possible that you had no clue what you were feeding your horse?

Bangs on head on wall.

Boots as well as many other major stores sell homeopathic remedies in tablet form.

http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Arnica-6c-Pillules-84-Pills_541/

Whilst I know that homeopathy should be bunkum, I know that I recover from a fall more quickly if I take Arnica afterwards..

 

[rara007]

I think homeopathy tablets are a sugar tablet with a drop of homeopathic liquid dropped on, and allowed to soak in/evaporate.

 

[Danny Vet]

Whilst I know that homeopathy should be bunkum, I know that I recover from a fall more quickly if I take Arnica afterwards..

Arnica is not homeopathy, it is herbal medicine, some of which works very well!

Have a read of this, it explains the difference. Homeopathy is essentially magic. Herbal medicine does have active ingredients.

 

[Danny Vet]

Thanks Danny..signed. Just what is the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons reasoning to continue to permit vets to practice homeopathy on their patients?

Thank you so much for signing. I can't explain why they permit vets to prescribe homeopathy, hence the petition! It seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[EQUIDAE]

I think homeopathy tablets are a sugar tablet with a drop of homeopathic liquid dropped on, and allowed to soak in/evaporate.

So the water has the memory of the active ingredient and the sugar has the memory of the water - that's even more crazy!

 

[Orca]

Arnica is not homeopathy, it is herbal medicine, some of which works very well!.

I think maybe it's the crossover between herbalism and homeopathy which is causing confusion. Arnica (as you know (TC) but others might not) can be either a homeopathic or herbal remedy, for e.g. ��

As can Hypericum, as can Calendula, etc. There are herbal and homeopathic preparations of each and of many more.

 

[spacefaer]

Up

It cannot have been homeopathy if it was in tablet form. Homeopathy is only water...tablets don't remember as well!

Is it possible that you had no clue what you were feeding your horse?

Bangs on head on wall.

It's always nice to discuss things in a reasoned manner with rational people.

 

[littletrotter]

It's always nice to discuss things in a reasoned manner with rational people.

Actually i know someone who saw a homeopath with her son for constipation. Son was 2. Homeopath prescribed some magical water, provided by her of course. Son had no response for a day and then an explosive one, very thorough. Mum sang praises. Dad got suspicious and took a sample to work (he was a chemist of some sort) and it turned out weeks later that it was water, with a large dose of senna in it. Mum accused dad of tampering, original bottle was all used up. Another year on and son was diagnosed with dairy allergy, his main symptom - constipation. So yes, lots of people give what-they-think-is-homeopathy to animals/children/themselves without actually knowing what is in it.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

You need to explain that homeopathy does work for humans. It works because the average consultation is so hugely longer than conventional appointments with the doctors. In other words, it's a talking therapy. Animals can't talk, so it's unethical on animals. It's homeopathic medicine which is a placebo, but the feeling that someone is finally really listening to them cures a lot of people!

I can't agree, when I had homeopathy [by a doctor]. I had a rather surprising reaction in the area involved, I was not made aware that this was going to happen,
I have found it good for chronic conditions.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

We know that:
1. The placebo effect exists
2. The placebo effect still comes into effect even when people know they are being given a placebo!
3. The placebo effect sill comes into play in animal trials because we are in many cases reliant on the owner/carer's perception of improvement in symptoms (which is why clinical trials for, for example arthritis vet medicines are moving to force plate analysis rather than owner reports of improvement).
I think points 1-3 help explain a lot of "results" from homeopathy.
I remember my first boss (a very wise old bird) saying "I wish I was a homeopathic vet - they charge for water, can tell everyone things will get worse before they get better, and are allowed to say the animal will take months to heal"..
As for the headshaking "cure" since it a complex, multifactorial and poorly understood disease, I suspect it wasn't the homeopathy that caused the improvement.
Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Goldenstar]

There are many unproven therapies, but homeopathy itself has been researched thoroughly and been proven to have no effect for any disease in humans beyond placebo. This is why the NHS are looking at blacklisting it as it doesn't work and is a waste of taxpayers money.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx

It's a disgrace the NHS wastes money on homeopathic remedies.

 

[ycbm]

I can't agree, when I had homeopathy [by a doctor]. I had a rather surprising reaction in the area involved, I was not made aware that this was going to happen,
I have found it good for chronic conditions.

Things get better over time, they just do. Especially if the patient believes they will.

 

[applecart14]

As can Hypericum, as can Calendula, etc. There are herbal and homeopathic preparations of each and of many more.

That what I said earlier but I was told herbal is not the same as homeopathic and then someone else said "there is no point arguing with wilful ignorance" !!!!! The cheek of it!

As far as I am concerned some remedies are both like Orca says.

If you look up 'Arnica, herbal' and then 'Arnica, homeopathic' in your search engine it has information for both herbal forms of arnica and homeopathic forms of arnica.

 

[Apercrumbie]

That what I said earlier but I was told herbal is not the same as homeopathic and then someone else said "there is no point arguing with wilful ignorance" !!!!! The cheek of it!

As far as I am concerned some remedies are both like Orca says.

If you look up 'Arnica, herbal' and then 'Arnica, homeopathic' in your search engine it has information for both herbal forms of arnica and homeopathic forms of arnica.

The difference - and it is an absolutely crucial difference - is how they are made/administered. A homeopathic preparation of arnica has pretty much no arnica in it at all. A herbal preparation will have lots. Most of us take the herbal version as it is widely available in pharmacies and it's pretty good stuff because it has enough of the active ingredient. No one is saying that the herbs you quoted don't work. Humans have been using herbs (herbs...not homeopathy) for thousands of years to treat illnesses. What they are saying is that they may work when prepared appropriately instead of being diluted beyond all recognition and functionality!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Arnica is not homeopathy, it is herbal medicine, some of which works very well!

Have a read of this, it explains the difference. Homeopathy is essentially magic. Herbal medicine does have active ingredients.

Erm, arnica is well known as a homeopathic remedy.

From the the Boots pharmacy website

Boots Arnica 6c Pillules is a homeopathic medicinal product without approved therapeutic indictions.

Read more at http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Arnica-6c-Pillules-84-Pills_541/#XuRuupeqM0fUPheu.99

As previously mentioned by other posters, it seems that arnica can be used both as a herbal medicine and a homeopathic one, depending on how it is prepared. I was advised to take the homeopathic version after both my C section deliveries by the midwives, to assist post op recovery.

 

[Booboos]

How can you believe in something and take into your body without even being consistent with claims of the thing itself? Homeopathic arnica should be water with such a tiny amount of arnica in it that the arnica is no longer detectable (= just water), shaken not stirred. Herbal arnica is just arnica. That there exists for sale homeopathic arnica in arnica form shows that both sellers and buyers are too idiotic to even understand the 18th century theory the supposedly believe in.

 

[Tiddlypom]

That there exists for sale homeopathic arnica in arnica form shows that both sellers and buyers are too idiotic to even understand the 18th century theory the supposedly believe in.

No need to be so rude!

 

[JFTDWS]

How can you believe in something and take into your body without even being consistent with claims of the thing itself? Homeopathic arnica should be water with such a tiny amount of arnica in it that the arnica is no longer detectable (= just water), shaken not stirred. Herbal arnica is just arnica. That there exists for sale homeopathic arnica in arnica form shows that both sellers and buyers are too idiotic to even understand the 18th century theory the supposedly believe in.

Homeopathy doesn't really have its story straight. Arnica is meant to be anti-inflammatory (hence the herbal prep). Homeopathy claims to treat with hyperdilute solutions of things which cause disease. Yet you can take homeopathic arnica to treat inflammation... Logic taking a bit of a hit there!

 

[littletrotter]

Homeopathy doesn't really have its story straight. Arnica is meant to be anti-inflammatory (hence the herbal prep). Homeopathy claims to treat with hyperdilute solutions of things which cause disease. Yet you can take homeopathic arnica to treat inflammation... Logic taking a bit of a hit there!

My favourite bit about the dilution theory as a whole is that you have to agitate the mixture by banging it on (essentially) a saddle! I have told various people who swear by homeopathy that wee gem and they usually have no idea. I invite them to look it up - the original proponent had a saddler make him a horsehair stuffed leather-on-wood-frame thing to bang the mixtures on and it HAD to be that thing and it HAD to be done along his very strict lines. It really starts to shade over into snakeoil territory when you realise that bit.

At the time, when it was developed, i can see why it caught on. We were still learning about bacterial disease and so on back then, imagining some part of a substance could "rub off" onto water cells isn't that far-fetched when you realise at the time Dr's were coming straight from postmortems in the morgue to the delivery rooms of labour ward WITHOUT washing their hands and couldn't understand why so many women were dying of childbed fever (postpartum sepsis, from the transfer of the bacteria from the women who died of it the day before!). However in this day and age there's no excuse for it!

 

[JFTDWS]

We were still learning about bacterial disease and so on back then, imagining some part of a substance could "rub off" onto water cells isn't that far-fetched when you realise at the time Dr's were coming straight from postmortems in the morgue to the delivery rooms of labour ward WITHOUT washing their hands and couldn't understand why so many women were dying of childbed fever (postpartum sepsis, from the transfer of the bacteria from the women who died of it the day before!). However in this day and age there's no excuse for it!

That's a beautiful bit of trivia. Where did you get it from?

 

[supsup]

Actually, if you read up a bit more about the history of homeopathy, you also come to realise that it was developed during an age where a lot of "treatment" was actively harmful, such as using mercury as a "cure" for a lot of ailment, or arsenic.
I am not surprised that in contrast, the benign homeopathy stood out as actually allowing patients to heal - probably mostly by not doing any further harm, and giving it time.

We know that:
1. The placebo effect exists
2. The placebo effect still comes into effect even when people know they are being given a placebo!
3. The placebo effect sill comes into play in animal trials because we are in many cases reliant on the owner/carer's perception of improvement in symptoms (which is why clinical trials for, for example arthritis vet medicines are moving to force plate analysis rather than owner reports of improvement).

The second point of these is one I find particularly fascinating. The placebo effect seems to be able to bypass our rational brain. I think it would be much more worthwhile to invest into research to understand the placebo effect (in essence a self-healing mechanism), and how we can tap into it consciously or deliberately.

 

[supsup]

PS: This link shows a few clips of the (current day) production of homeopathic medication. http://www.homoeopathie-heute.de/homoeopathie/grundsaeulen/herstellung.php
The second clip from the top shows the dilution step, where the dilute mixture is tapped a specific number of times on a leather pad. The site is in German.

 

[Orca]

Homeopathy doesn't really have its story straight. Arnica is meant to be anti-inflammatory (hence the herbal prep). Homeopathy claims to treat with hyperdilute solutions of things which cause disease. Yet you can take homeopathic arnica to treat inflammation... Logic taking a bit of a hit there!

As stated previously, I'm cynical but just so you know, arnica is toxic if ingested in an undiluted form. Homeopathic preparations of 'hyperdilute' arnica are meant for ingestion and therefore probably do adhere to the like for like theory. The herbal preparation is for topical use only.