Why it might be time to stop riding horses

Honestly, I'm not sure they are wrong. I've had horses that thrived on work, one used to call to me when he saw I had his harness. But there's far too many horses that are from uncomfortable right through to in constant pain and far too many people who don't know or care. I strongly believe horses shouldn't be stabled in London for any reason. Its an awful life and its not mitigated by turning them out for a few weeks. Horses in sport seem to get the thin end of the wedge sadly, because once money becomes involved morals go out of the window.
 
I'm Dun said:
I strongly believe horses shouldn't be stabled in London for any reason. Its an awful life and its not mitigated by turning them out for a few weeks.
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Oddly enough there are more bridle paths and turnout in London than in some heavilly farmed rural areas. The London horses I have ridden have all been turned out overnight and stabled for their working day. I dont know any RS near us `that lacks overnght turn out.
But horses are working animals and have been bred for the work. If you are saying horses should not be ridden then that is a different question and nothing to do with London.
Working horses kept stabled in London are mainly used by military and Police. I myself had doubts about the horses facing rioters, and where there was tear gas the horses looked to have face masks, but that was mainly in the North of England and not London.
 
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I'm Dun said:
I strongly believe horses shouldn't be stabled in London for any reason. Its an awful life and its not mitigated by turning them out for a few weeks.
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The failings of the Household Cavalry are not representative of every stable in London. Being stabled in London does not mean a horse is guaranteed to receive little turnout - many yards have fields, many yards provide holidays for their horses throughout the year, and many yards provide all-weather turnout areas. Not to mention that your average London yard does not do individual turnout; your average London horse is getting the interaction with conspecifics that many horses across the country aren’t offered.

Keeping horses in London isn’t the problem. Keeping horses without access to turnout is - and that’s an issue across the country, particularly in winter.

Any lines about welfare being “inherently compromised” if a horse lives in London are really just an excuse for people to not try to improve their animals’ welfare because “at least they don’t live in London.”
 
Skib said:
Oddly enough there are more bridle paths and turnout in London than in some heavilly farmed rural areas. The London horses I have ridden have all been turned out overnight and stabled for their working day. I dont know any RS near us `that lacks overnght turn out.
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A London yard not too far from me has no turnout where it operates but rotates its horses out so they have either 3 or 4 days at grass each week. Those are in herds in large fields, with daily checks.
 
stangs said:
Keeping horses in London isn’t the problem. Keeping horses without access to turnout is - and that’s an issue across the country, particularly in winter.
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I've known a few riding schools that don't routinely turn their horses out apart from holidays.

2 were in London, others weren't. All had some turnout available but didnt use it. Most had plenty of turnout, one didn't have enough but could have managed a little leg stretch with some effort.

It just suited their routine to have the horses in ready to work. An old fashioned approach where working horses worked in the day and spent the night in their stables.
 
It’s good to see these points being discussed in the mainstream press . I hope articles like this slowly drive change

“…However, a BHA spokesperson said: “Our sport gives these athletes purpose, an unparalleled quality of life and world-class care that allows them to maximise their potential.”
- the BHA have their heads firmly in the sand ☹️
 
Reacher said:
It’s good to see these points being discussed in the mainstream press . I hope articles like this slowly drive change

“…However, a BHA spokesperson said: “Our sport gives these athletes purpose, an unparalleled quality of life and world-class care that allows them to maximise their potential.”
- the BHA have their heads firmly in the sand ☹️
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Yes imagine the heartbreak of a thoroughbred in his 20s thinking - 'I've wasted my life, if only I'd run at Ascot or Aintree' :rolleyes:
 
SEL said:
I read it this morning and didn't think that at all! I found it disjointed and just jumping around between various interviewees.
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Yes! Me too, and on the other thread I mentioned how hypocritical it was for the anti-racing campaigner to say there was no ethical argument for riding horses and then proceed to say how it was fine and ethical for him to ride his own horses as they needed it 🤷
 
cauda equina said:
It's certainly time to stop abusing horses - and all other animals too
But I believe it's perfectly possible to ride horses without doing them harm and if that's the case, why not?
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Sharon May-Davis's work on elbow arthritis suggests that's not the case. She found it in 100% of ridden and driven horses dissected, but not in horses that had never worked. Whether or not horses are affected by it to the degree that their work needs to be reduced/modified or ended altogether, it does appear that this is a harm directly related to our working them.
 
Burnttoast said:
Sharon May-Davis's work on elbow arthritis suggests that's not the case. She found it in 100% of ridden and driven horses dissected, but not in horses that had never worked. Whether or not horses are affected by it to the degree that their work needs to be reduced/modified or ended altogether, it does appear that this is a harm directly related to our working them.
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Here’s some interesting info about her work on elbow arthritis, and some videos showing the gait of affected horses (from 2013 article):

thehorsesback.com

Equine Elbow Arthritis Lesions Found In All Worked Horses

Equine arthritis of the elbow is found in the majority of worked horses, according to this research by Dr Sharon May-Davis.
thehorsesback.com thehorsesback.com

Her published paper findings 2022:

papers.ssrn.com

A Preliminary Study Examining Intraarticular Lesions in the Equine Elbow Joint

AbstractThis study investigated the presence of intraarticular lesions in the elbow joint of E. caballus in worked (n=34) and non-worked (n=12) horses. Gross ex
papers.ssrn.com
 
PurBee said:
Here’s some interesting info about her work on elbow arthritis, and some videos showing the gait of affected horses (from 2013 article):

thehorsesback.com

Equine Elbow Arthritis Lesions Found In All Worked Horses

Equine arthritis of the elbow is found in the majority of worked horses, according to this research by Dr Sharon May-Davis.
thehorsesback.com thehorsesback.com

Her published paper findings 2022:

papers.ssrn.com

A Preliminary Study Examining Intraarticular Lesions in the Equine Elbow Joint

AbstractThis study investigated the presence of intraarticular lesions in the elbow joint of E. caballus in worked (n=34) and non-worked (n=12) horses. Gross ex
papers.ssrn.com
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Unfortunately in the pre-print on here it doesn't seem to have Table 2, which is the ages of the horses studied. As while she says all ridden horses had lesions, lesions were found in non-ridden horses over age of 4. What is the use of comparing <4 of age non ridded horses to ridden horses which are all going to be >4?

I would need to see the comparison of ages between ridden and non ridden to say that riding was the cause.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Unfortunately in the pre-print on here it doesn't seem to have Table 2, which is the ages of the horses studied. As while she says all ridden horses had lesions, lesions were found in non-ridden horses over age of 4. What is the use of comparing <4 of age non ridded horses to ridden horses which are all going to be >4?

I would need to see the comparison of ages between ridden and non ridden to say that riding was the cause.
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In the pdf download link on her study abstract page there’s more info, but the tables are not showing, (no idea why, perhaps because its a preprint version)

The info on ridden horses from the pdf copy and pasted below. Theyre various ages, not all under 4. Some age info missing on some what age they were actually pts.

https://elsevier-ssrn-document-store-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/jevs/5bd44fa6-94cd-46a9-b449-24ac4f0baafa-meca.pdf?response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3Dssrn-4022916.pdf&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEJ3%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIARhunh8MZmQtB4HsZQniR3tuG98iKGvM2Pn7x5KbKvIAiEAoYFRh3z6n4W6Bt%2FzMbnx%2FFZW%2BKw5zPB2og6YRfiY%2BT8qxgUIpf%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAEGgwzMDg0NzUzMDEyNTciDIAn5CCO3Np%2FqK5NHyqaBXUQCNDfGPQpkxC0a7FbTQtJtW6LUIfqlTZBhqQXYvqwNIAuUL2smh7CU%2F7nA%2Brl7RU2Mj51JexFCaO7Z8Dup1nEH05Sc3NzxuDo3cXNUPcAQUdrtyx5HNRKEfdu1QucEM6TqexJdGDhFgZaxvixv%2FY2tJwL%2F7rth1Am69o4eeZnFoG8v%2FbTE5KWVFg%2Fe1uPjLEkzvBSJbJaJFnfwpIFfPwF6TVKizRqFIvW1GLgNtK6CJnd8YyjgH2H9zALDRcEMp%2BbKHpKBSchcoSUVq8k6%2BAnWyugp4d1uXu%2B6H0hw8yAefsnu0WpNUR9MZd2dNb5YsM%2FqgO553YEhUwk7q0U4mEF%2B%2Fgs9H5QZQY2aDFsk8U5unw%2Bl3AmIOcD6K5bPofBTTvEivFAYYP3PcT%2FafT%2BMGEsmkIGuZ2T%2BAqlO0H5kzgZI2l%2F%2BDwmE4WX9xYooy%2B%2BBS33%2B3N8%2Fi4dOviO%2FrQmK1o%2BDJEfyJhvJDt9e0wOXYcAz6jVka6kf0craNS2cDk4s7DXsmerAqvp1HCGCSsBvMqDbWhpoGNsE4%2FoX2BU3P1PDOZukCoD2InKUbrzFB7n7jCZsIdWCmA%2BmBq8rz3ML9lIwdesQewf0RcuOyJGdPnxB7ocE%2FJYBWVfcjoKtyp1MgKX7un0W1hcppELSBev4Ucyv5ap7wX%2BLRpJKWvKSRqmtdsqkpPkE1XBGHpLYA0lh2ce%2F6mlJQQ2RRzJihw%2BxFYQGs0FQawddNFY4b1cVhFoqDTzRLHpbeThp1BTie%2FOfvJeD6dPgPfiDA3pIwrOHH1s37x%2F8AFYT4sxR1XJXPyOMVGXfEfqGmd4pLmGVF0lm1kRZaXRh5thzOlRxmWsTSdjPBZfKYgpJ7TGBTxk3MFQa5uPVanQ%2BlYFkjCT%2B6G2BjqxAWNHdmCvtVsnJ%2BfTZveo81ZnOeSzaj39Gp0PoBzD%2BYI4yMkVzeVKc48NZgmUb7QvyVGTlkXL2erKAbANKCuKAfR1NrwYGnjC3o97DZ7wu1WIS86o5%2FShKZWSOJ%2BuEUUKvFneEio12DTwykcXSo8zznriTr3sOFCtQfcHqYPyPz8GeAfZBZr0pcVsSGTCNTdMHxcKezBio7gROiw%2FQSrmpiuj13gTGQzywjJ%2F2KhtxD%2F3jA%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20240823T133414Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAUPUUPRWE64IXFLFO%2F20240823%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=70aa8d207f8e1f5dc4835bf035fa3551e81c3a76ce041264f0dc15f7563ea541

2.3.1 Relevant History for Worked Horses
The full history for each horse in work was not available, however, some relevant Preprint not peer reviewed details were obtained.
Tb. 1, ridden for 3 months.
Tbs. 2–6, raced until dissected.
Tbs. 7–9, raced and then went to stud.
Tb. 11, raced, show jumped until 13 then retired.
Tb. 12, raced and then 3-day evented low levels until dissected.
Tb. 13, raced and 3-day evented until high levels until dissected, on constant joint support throughout eventing career.
Tbs. 14 and 15, raced and show jumped.
Wb. 1, show jumped from 3 to 8, on constant joint support.
Wb. 4, dressage until 8 and then went to stud.
Wb. 5. dressage until 8 and then went to stud.
Wb. 6, show jumped FEI level until 10 and then dressage to medium for 11 years.
Xb. 3, sporting until 14.
Xb. 4, recreational riding until dissected.
ASH. 1, recreational riding for 1 year.
ASH. 2, seasonal muster work until dissected.
Qh. 1, some western riding and sporting until dissected.
Arabian - endurance UK and Saudi Arabia, retired, then recreationally ridden until 24.
ISH - hunted from 3 until dissected.
Riding Pony - show ridden from 3 until 7.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Unfortunately in the pre-print on here it doesn't seem to have Table 2, which is the ages of the horses studied. As while she says all ridden horses had lesions, lesions were found in non-ridden horses over age of 4. What is the use of comparing <4 of age non ridded horses to ridden horses which are all going to be >4?

I would need to see the comparison of ages between ridden and non ridden to say that riding was the cause.
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The lesions were graded 1-4, that wasnt the age being discussed in the abstract.

“Worked horses presented lesions from 1–4” (with prior statement “regardless of age”)
 
PurBee said:
The lesions were graded 1-4, that wasnt the age being discussed in the abstract.

“Worked horses presented lesions from 1–4” (with prior statement “regardless of age”)
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Yes but all the ridden horses are over the age of 4 (to have been worked as much, or some of the race horses may have been younger) and in her own results she states that lesions were found in non-ridden horses over the age of 4. So how many non-ridden horses were over or under 4 and which ones had lesions. If all non-ridden horses over 4 have lesions, then she is negating her own argument that it is riding casing the problem.

However, if same age horses non-ridden have no lesions then her argument is stronger.
 
cauda equina said:
It's certainly time to stop abusing horses - and all other animals too
But I believe it's perfectly possible to ride horses without doing them harm and if that's the case, why not?
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Potentially, but how do we really know? Everyday I see people saying a horse was "testing them" or "being an asshole". If the horses actively acting out are ignored, how can we be so sure that our wonderfully stoic quieter horses aren't also suffering?
 
shortstuff99 said:
Yes but all the ridden horses are over the age of 4 (to have been worked as much, or some of the race horses may have been younger) and in her own results she states that lesions were found in non-ridden horses over the age of 4. So how many non-ridden horses were over or under 4 and which ones had lesions. If all non-ridden horses over 4 have lesions, then she is negating her own argument that it is riding casing the problem.

However, if same age horses non-ridden have no lesions then her argument is stronger.
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Yes, i see what you are saying. To have the exact details of the studied groups ages an email to the author would be warranted, as i cant find with a quick brief search online the tables giving details which are omitted from the pre-print.

As a qualified professional in her field, if she found all ridden and non ridden horses over 4 had lesions, there is no reason to differentiate the groups to ridden or non-ridden and qualify a study of it. A quick review would see there’s no difference and it would instead indicate potential domesticated nutritional issues than ridden status.
Im not convinced she’s willing to throw her reputation in the gutter by making such an obvious error of review.

Her groups % findings of lesions indicate such a wide margin of difference, the ridden V non-ridden status needs more indepth study and results based off her initial relatively smaller study findings.:

“In worked horses, examination of 204 articular surfaces revealed 204/204 (100%) presented lesions; while in non-worked horses, examination of 72 articular surfaces revealed only 13/72 (18%) presented lesions.”


I personally see the results from a few angles, especially nutritionally, because she’s not saying that riding alone knackers the elbow, as she’s found lesions on non-ridden too. So there’s a route cause outside of ridden status to question. Bad breeding? Genetics? Diet? All possibilities. However it is clear that riding exacerbates and almost guarantees degradation of the joint. Compounding or causing it, is yet to be fully studied and known for sure. Many more studies would be needed.
Nutritionally its easy to see how we’re likely growing horses to be skeletally weaker as the soils they eat from are disastrously depleted, or very mineral imbalanced.
 
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