Why not just ban horseracing ?

Hmm- i think they are treated well in the sense that they get everything they need and are wrapped in cotton wool! BUT there is not sentiment-its a buisness!!
 
I dont think the real issue is racing.
The issue is that it is in the public eye, a lot more so than other equine sports. There are more horses in racing than any other field, of course there are going to be more fatalities. Id bet that the percentages of injuries/fatalities are the same across the board, from happy hacker to racehorse.
The fact is that everyone sees what happens in racing, and it is the only sport (to my knowledge) that actually records the injuries and fatalities as to help the research into them.
A lot of people dont realise that the majoprity of equine medical research is funded by racing, and carried out with racing in mind.
All of the doubters need to stop and think next time there is seriously wrong with their horse. Where did the techniques and medication used to treat it come from?
ETS, As for the training/care in racing, that is second to none. Yes there are a few muppets about, but it is wrong to tarnish the whole industry with the same brush.
How many people do you all know which arent even capable of worming and trimming a horse kept out in the field? I know a fair few. There are muppets mistreating horses all across the country. Again, because of the high numbers of trainers in the public eye, racing gets an unnecessarily bad name.
 
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To me the biggest risk to horses these days are neurotic horse owners, who are clearly incapable of providing any aspect of proper horse care - yet claim they love their horse as if grew in their uterus.

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Totally agree with that statement.

I know of more horses killed because of field related injuries or ignorant control freak owners trying to prove a point with horses that shouldn't even have been considered for the job.
 
Interestingly - (and I don't have a particular opinion one way or another on racing generally), when I sold a pony recently, there was the possibility of it going to live in Newmarket at one of the UK's premier racing yards. Had the people wanted to buy him, I would have refused to let them have him. He would have been kept in a yard with two swimming pools, indoor schools, solariums and the best level of veterinary & technical care money can buy BUT he would have had limited turn out in the 5 acres or so which was shared amongst a couple of hundred horses.

I don't agree that the conditions racehorses are kept in are going to keep them healthier or happier. In fact I think my rough ponies have better care(24/7 turnout, individual care) and are almost certainly much happier (very settled herd, interesting parties to go to, one primary carer most of their lives) than the majority or racehorses.
 
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All the racehorse yards i have seen (ive been to about 9!) treat theyre horses amazingly. Heated stables and everything! Im sure my horse would much rather have the life of a racehorse than the old stable and muddy turnout that i give him
xxx

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There's bound to be a few dodgy ones though isn't there....my friend worked in 3 awful yards where the jockeys would kick the s**t out of the horses if they played up.

An ex flatracer is at our yard and doing really well now - couldn't get near her head for 2 months as she was apparently terribly head shy.

Obviously the majority of yards treat their horses well (be stupid not too as they're investments) but there will always be the odd exceptions. This goes for the whole horseworld though doesn't it?

x
 
OK well nobody addressed the question I asked in the post despite me deliberately pointing out in the last 2 sentences that it would be difficult to shake off all the secondary issues that has been nicely expressed.

The question was a simple moral/ethical one. There is only one fact you need to know to consider the question and that is that horses die as a result of an activity that has no other purpose that human entertainment/profit. Sure there are practical issues like what would happen to the horses and the economic impact but they are secondary. Similarly I agree that racehorses are kept well, but that has no bearing on the moral question of whether or not I believe in the 21st century we should be using animals for our entertainment in activities which predictably result in their injury and death.
 
Well, how far do you go with this?

If you own a horse and just keep it in a field you are in effect keeping a horse for your own entertainment. Why else would we have them?

In the 21st century I believe it is outdated to make an animal do something using cruel methods or making animals fight.

Racehorses (Yes, I believe there is lots of room for improvement) love what they do.

The same as the pony out in the field loves what he does.
 
I think by reading your post, it will become a subject of great debate and different opinions. I do think that before you enter into a tricky one, you need to have a very good back ground knowledge and be able to defend your statement.

Saying, this, opening a lively debate is all part of the forum and people are coming back to you with some very valid points.
 
But that applys to all activities involving horses not just racing .
So if you are making that statement then why not join the rest of the nanny state and live in a shoe box house with a ford mondeo and have 2.2 kids.
Leaving the rest of us to enjoy our horses all doing activies which include standing in a field that might just end up in them getting killed.
Lets face it some poor soul lost her horses when the feeder they were eating from was struck by lightening.
There is danger everywhere for horses we choose to hack them out and someone can hit them with a car.
They break legs cantering down the field.
People feed horses to much they get laminitis which is most cruel?
 
I totally agree with 4 faulter re the huge numbers of horses that get wrecked in the background rather than on the tv screen.

She is right - imagine what we'd all have to say if someone with a 2 year old, instead of posting about how they'd taken it for a stroll up the lane with long reins, posted that they'd been trotting it on the roads to get it very fit & had then galloped it flat out for a couple of miles???

The other thing I disagree with is the 24 hour stabling. On a lovely bright day, it makes me feel ill to think of all those beautiful horses stuck in with nothing to do but crib. I know it's for safety's sake, but does it make their lives worth living?
 
They are not all in 24/7.
Most of the yards that i know of turn them out for at least part of the day.
Venetia Williams races them out of the field.
I think dressage horses and showjumpers particularly on the continent are more likely to stable all the time.
Even racehorses that are in all day while they are in training will be turned out all the time in the off season.
 
No, I do not believe there is a moral / ethical issue with racing horses. People ride horses for pleasure, no other reason whether it be directly or indirectly and as everytime we take our horses anywhere, there is a potential risk that follows, why are you singling racing out?? I do not have time to go into the arguments as I have to go out, but there, I have answered your question!!
 
I think once we accept tha human's will 'use' animals for their own ends - and in very few cases are they indispensible for life, it's a matter of defining what's acceptable.
As with most ethical issues I think we have to make a personal judgement. I don't agree with many aspects of racing - as with the meat industry etc. etc. etc. But don't feel strongly enough to want to see it banned. As with the hunting issue I have some faith in the judgement of those who participate, I also think they have a right to their own code of ethics and should be allowed to act as they see fit.

There are of course limits to this freedom, but I would like to see us focus on those freedoms which are clearly unacceptable rather than those which are ambiguous - so no I wouldn't want to see racing banned.
 
I have such conflicting personal views on this and I really can't give a straight or even sideways answer atm. Though I do err towards GTs' viewpoint - I think. Needless to say I am quite adicted to the industry....... I've brought 44 of the critters into the world already this year, for both flat and NH!
 
Funny you should post that. I have very mixed feelings about racing, but am wary of saying what I feel as people who work in the industry are naturally very defensive. I am sure there are many horses who are well looked after, not overfaced, not raced too young etc etc. My concern is for the more 'sausage machine' aspect of breeding horses simply to provide something to gamble on. There is a lot of wastage in terms of unsuitable foals. The only thing I like about racing is the beauty of the horses themselves.
 
Just a comment on the notioin that racing is 'natual'

eg Stimpy
"Of course racing is a natural thing - it may in an unnatural setting though."

and GT's
"I view racing as natural for horses - the wild horses I have seen in the US often race each other "


The top speed of terrestrial animals is used for preditor/prey interaction ie survival, lower speeds are used for any other purpose. The speed limit is defined by the physiological limits of the respiratory, cardiovascular and locomotor systems and therefore travelling at top speed puts an animal close to it's performance limit and close to the point of injury. So animals don't do it unless they need to, and then for short periods after which they have escaped or been killed (assuming we're referring to a predatee). Horses sometimes race off against each other in social interaction but it has purpose in establishing dominace.

So superficially racing is natural in the sense that one can observe animals travelling fast in the wild. With slightly more insight one might say that there is a risk and a cost to travelling fast which animals subconsciously 'trade off' against their instincts to survive, ie they use it when they have to.

Deliberately making a skeletally immature animal travel at top speed for periods that easily exceed the duration of preditor/prey interactions in the wild is not comparable. The remarkable thing from a biological perspective is that the incidence of injury is not much greater.
 
I too have very mixed feelings about racing and believe there is huge room for improvement in the industry. I dislike youngsters being used and I don't like races such as the GN where too many horses are in one race. This is where a high level of injury occurs.
That said - in the history of horses when have they really been kept just as pets?? The answer is hardly ever. Horses have and always will have a job too do. They are too costly to keep just because we like them. Horses have been used in wars and in the farming industry for centuries and you can bet they were never treated great then. We have far better laws surrounding animal welfare now than we ever have, there is still tonnes of room for improvement, but not just in racing - in all aspects of horse ownership.
 
"I think once we accept tha human's will 'use' animals for their own ends - and in very few cases are they indispensible for life, it's a matter of defining what's acceptable."

I agree totally. Perhaps I should have phrased the question as "in an ideal world would like animals to be used in this way" because I was interested not in the inevitable constraints within which we live but whether given the choice people would choose to do it. Another way of thinking about it would be to say "if horseracing didn't exist (and had never existed), would it be socially acceptable to start doing it". I think the answer would be yes provided horses existed as companion animals which sort of reflect what several people said about racing being no different from other equestrian pursuits.
 
Banning - never going to happen!
I do not have a problem with racing, all equestrian sports are going to have some risk involved, and all are for "our enjoyment" so I do not think the moral issues involved of "using horses" should just be confined to just racing.

There are things that concern me about the industry.....racing horses younger than 3, indiscriminate breeding, and the conformational faults caused....but that is a different matter!
 
So many points to make - so little time. I am fiercly protective of racing, I love it and support it 100% - however I do agree there is a darkside. However there is a darkside in all equine sports, sadly.

As for the point about the horses doing too much to young. I have 2 young exracers, both bought at 3 (one just over a year ago and one just a while ago) having raced. Neither of them has any physical problems at all. Nothing. When the yearlings and 2 year olds are backed - in my experience - they are hacked out, walked trotted and then taken up gallops. No working on an outline, no circles, no long periods of rising trot, no lunging in sidereins etc. Apart from going quickly in an almost straight line they have no pressure put on them. How about though all the young WB and sports horses etc who are broken at 3 and by the time they hit 4 they have been heavily schooled and jumped, for me asking a young and not completely grown horse to work round for extended periods of time and jump the big heights cant be good. The ISH I have just sold was ruined by being asked too much too soon, i spent the last year putting him back together, however he will never physically be able to work round and will always have a prob with his back - because he done too much too young, yet the exracers are both 100% sound.

do you think the European Horse factories that produce overschooled young WB's are a better place for a 3 year old to be? Tb's have been being ridden at that age for years, and yes there will always be the ones who develop a problem because of it, but never a mention of all the ones who leave the sport healthy and with a good outlook on life...
 
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I totally agree with 4 faulter re the huge numbers of horses that get wrecked in the background rather than on the tv screen.

She is right - imagine what we'd all have to say if someone with a 2 year old, instead of posting about how they'd taken it for a stroll up the lane with long reins, posted that they'd been trotting it on the roads to get it very fit & had then galloped it flat out for a couple of miles???

The other thing I disagree with is the 24 hour stabling. On a lovely bright day, it makes me feel ill to think of all those beautiful horses stuck in with nothing to do but crib. I know it's for safety's sake, but does it make their lives worth living?

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When yearlings are broken they aren't just suddenly trotted up a road and then galloped through a field.

As for the stabling comment, not all horses like being outside!
 
An alternative view point would involve asking whether other species would chose to be 'used' by us!
Clearly being our playthings has been hugely advantageous for horses as a species, as it has for cattle, pigs, chickens etc.
I sometimes think that having a zero footprint would be wonderful- to inflict no suffering on other species! But then I think we are absolutely inseperable from other species in fact, from the zillions of bacteria which exist on/in us to our role as top predator.
You could construct arguments which are quite spiritual regarding our relationship with certain animals, it's interesting that the horse is beloved of Allah, and that this spiritual aspect is embedded in many belief systems. It would lead you to think that we must, for our own mental health be involved with animals.
 
I think Scarlett has a good point to make, having always had mixed feelings about racing i have now found myself working with a selection of racehorses and have just been the ground person backing a 2 yo and have to say i thought it was done brilliantly, no excess stress, she has not been asked to work in an outline, been forced into anything uncomfortable. She has been given a great grounding which i think will stand her i good stead.

On the same yard we have showjumpers which i have less to do with. There are 2 3yos who are just being backed, they have never been sat on but already work in draw reins with false outlines, both have a lot of growing to do, one is definitely looking a bit jointy already.

Anyway still not sure where i stand on racing but am having serious problems with the way some showjumpers are kept. I think if showjumpers were thoroughbred there would be some horrendous injuries to both horse and definitely rider!


Another point to make with regards to the injury rate of racehorses is that breeders must take some responsibility for this. We know that racehorses are going to be physically tested to their limit and they either cope with this or break physically or mentally. So why are we breeding from sub standard stock then wondering why things go wrong.

Also if you look at a horses conformation and think hmm those legs are never going to stand up to it why are the horses not sold at that point to do another job rather than going lame then someone saying well he always had a weak front leg.

I don't think racing could or should be banned but the whole thoroughbred industry does need better regulation, this may then prevent such a massive drop out rate.

I dont think it would ever happen but i do wonder if the stud book should be opened to certain approved sires to inmprove the soundness of the thoroughbred.

Anyway im going to stop rambling now!!!
 
"I sometimes think that having a zero footprint would be wonderful- to inflict no suffering on other species! But then I think we are absolutely inseperable from other species in fact, from the zillions of bacteria which exist on/in us to our role as top predator."

I agree and I think we can make some distinctions between the different ways in which we interact with animals. I think its fine to kill off bacteria if they are trying to kill off us. I don't have a problem with killing and eating animals because a lot more killing and eating goes on in nature that we manage to achieve. But the whole issue of using animals for entertainment is a human thing and wonder if society will get to the point where it is considered unacceptable. There is already an established view that circuses and zoos are unethical (for different reasons) but it's still ok to breed horses to run around in circles, well oblongs.
 
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If only they would stop racing 2/3 yo the figures would drop dramatically.

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Wrong flat racing is like gymnastics - why are there no older gymnasts, because if you do not have the flexibility, the agility and stamina at an early age you are never going to get it.

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There is I guess a dark side to racing, the number of failed horses that end up at the abattoir or sold on to completely unsuitable homes is where I think the industry fails.

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I think you will find racing is one of the few equestrian sports who makes an effort to rehome their horses - there are for more show horses getting killed in US slaughter houses than race horses. You will also note tha there is currently research that suggests the majority of the struggle with ex racers is the fact people are not letting them rest between racing and their new job.
 
"Wrong flat racing is like gymnastics - why are there no older gymnasts, because if you do not have the flexibility, the agility and stamina at an early age you are never going to get it"

Gosh, that's strange, I thought I saw an older horse galloping the other day, must have imagined it. It had never occured to me that if you don't gallop a horse falt out repeatedly day in day out it wouldn't be able to gallop at all by the time it was skeletally mature because it wouldn't have the flexibility or stamina - stupidly I just imagined it would gallop a bit slower and race times might be a bit longer.
 
You spout nothing but emotional twaddle with factless, and incredibly weak logic - the horses you saw are not race horses, you push them to racing standard they will fall apart. Much like I can do a handstand, but I will never be able to compete on the pommel horse.

denis%20savenkov.JPG


I think the weakness in your arguement is you have no clue what you are arguing about - I am generally quite receptive, and you have made no sense to me.

Animal rights activists are an incredibly large threat to the western world, not only with their terror like tactics, their bloackage of medical science but what people really miss the majority of them DON'T CARE ABOUT ANIMALS! They are people with psychological problems - a need for power, attention and confrontation.
 
Ok so what would happen with all the current racehorses surely stopping races would cause horses to be PTS as well, as I am sure there is not enough people out there to re train them as riding horses

Horse Racing isnt totally wrong, for example today in the cheltenam gold cup what about the loose horse that went on to finish the race and really was fighting it out (the loose horse came second!) if the horses hated it why would they carry on and not just stop as the average riding horse would?

Also dressage definetly isnt natural or show jumping or eventing and surely eventing is just as dangerous there just is less people involved in the sport and less publicity about any deaths in the sport unlike horse racing
 
well, if there was a blanket ban from say 31st march, i'm off to open a licenced slaughterhouse!!!
 
Well, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the reason the argument doesn't make sense to you is because it is beyond your capacity to understand it. Unfortunately, for me to adress this would require you to stick to the subject and state precisely where you think the errors are in my comments are rather than make vague statements of your opinion of my logic, cluelessness and factual content.

So, in my previous post I was agreeing with somebody correctly implied, you could leave a horse until maturity without racing or race training, then train it to race. I'm not clear whether your disagreement was:

(1) that horses trained in this way would drop to pieces if raced. - that is incorrect because like with any athletic training, you train and perform within the performance and adaptation capacity of the athlete. So horses would perform at a lower level than racehorses trained early in life but if the age constraints were applied equally to horses in training that would allow fair competition.

or

(2) that a horse trained later in life could not perform at the level of a horse trained earlier in life. Yes and the Pope is Catholic so what? Perhaps you have failed to grasp that absolute times are not important in racing it is the competition that matters. If the whole of racing got 1 second slower overnight it would not affect any aspect of the competition or the industry.

But since you like facts and logic, why don't you give me the scientific basis for your belief that horses trained in later life would drop to pieces.

I also don't see the relevance of your paragraph on animal rights activists so perhaps you would care to enlighten me on that as well.
 
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