Why the hell is Pentathlon an Olympic sport?

BeesKnees said:
As a fitness and rehab professional I'm interested in the reasoning for this?
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A lot to do with fast twitch and slow twitch muscles apparently,If you ride regularly your muscle build up is basicly wrong for fast running. Too much weight in the wrong places too. When I was in my 20 s I was ridiculously fit yet I just couldnt get my running times down. I could run absolutely for ever but was totaly one paced. Even in my late 30 s I could do a sub 3 hour marathon without any additional training, but the pace of a MP run was simply too hot for me.
 
Mike007 said:
Sorry to disagree, I have yet to meet someone who has one lesson a week and doesnt have a horse ,who can walk out and get on a strange horse and compete round a course of 1.20. I have on the other hand seen plenty of "riders" who can look wonderfull on a horse ,in a school with only one lesson a week.I have also sadly witnessed some of these riders coming seriously to greif when they actualy had to ride in a real situation.
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My point was about basics. Sitting in balance, strength in your position, using your legs and hands properly, knowing how to slow down a horse that's taking off a bit, not getting jumped off because the horse does a bit of a cat leap... That was missing in lots of the riders. I know what you mean about some riding school schoolmasters who make it very easy for people and then it coming apart when they get on a 'real' horse (as it happens that's not what I was riding, i was just using me as an example to make a point - and it didn't all fall apart once in the real world as it happens because I got taught properly on lots of different "imperfect" horses, specifically because that's what I asked for as I was about to start trying lots of strange horses to see if I wanted to buy them ...and I'm *very averagely* talented at best!!) The level some of these people were riding at in terms of their security, balance, judgement, they shouldn't have been jumping British Novice, let alone 1'20.

Like I said, I'm not blaming them, I'm saying something's a bit wrong in the system if this is the best way to test horsemanship in this event.
 
The trouble with the riding section is that it also depends on the horses that the riders are given. You might be a good rider - someone who has come up through Pony Club as Steph Cook did, I think, and get the worst horse in the competition. Yet someone else who is a sit and steer rider may get lucky in the draw and get a saint who will take anyone round.

I can't see that unless everone was given the same horse - obviously impossible - that it can be a "fair" test. I can see why it was included originally, a good rider ought to be able to get on any animal and ride it competently, as a test of a soldier, but is it really appropriate for a modern competition. The shooting, running, fencing, swimming, etc. are tests of the athlete, not lottery of which horse.
 
philamena said:
My point was about basics. Sitting in balance, strength in your position, using your legs and hands properly, knowing how to slow down a horse that's taking off a bit, not getting jumped off because the horse does a bit of a cat leap... That was missing in lots of the riders. I know what you mean about some riding school schoolmasters who make it very easy for people and then it coming apart when they get on a 'real' horse (as it happens that's not what I was riding, i was just using me as an example to make a point - and it didn't all fall apart once in the real world as it happens because I got taught properly on lots of different "imperfect" horses, specifically because that's what I asked for as I was about to start trying lots of strange horses to see if I wanted to buy them ...and I'm *very averagely* talented at best!!) The level some of these people were riding at in terms of their security, balance, judgement, they shouldn't have been jumping British Novice, let alone 1'20.

Like I said, I'm not blaming them, I'm saying something's a bit wrong in the system if this is the best way to test horsemanship in this event.
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I agree, which is why I think we need to shift the top level competetive age level upwards. Give riders more time to absorb the equine lifeskills. (ooh I like that phrase:D)The best way to do this is to lengthen both the run and swim.
 
Orangehorse said:
The trouble with the riding section is that it also depends on the horses that the riders are given. You might be a good rider - someone who has come up through Pony Club as Steph Cook did, I think, and get the worst horse in the competition. Yet someone else who is a sit and steer rider may get lucky in the draw and get a saint who will take anyone round.

I can't see that unless everone was given the same horse - obviously impossible - that it can be a "fair" test. I can see why it was included originally, a good rider ought to be able to get on any animal and ride it competently, as a test of a soldier, but is it really appropriate for a modern competition. The shooting, running, fencing, swimming, etc. are tests of the athlete, not lottery of which horse.
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And yet the usual suspects tend to win, so they must be doing somthing right in the riding , to turn it from just a lottery.:D
 
Mike007 said:
A lot to do with fast twitch and slow twitch muscles apparently,If you ride regularly your muscle build up is basicly wrong for fast running. Too much weight in the wrong places too. When I was in my 20 s I was ridiculously fit yet I just couldnt get my running times down. I could run absolutely for ever but was totaly one paced. Even in my late 30 s I could do a sub 3 hour marathon without any additional training, but the pace of a MP run was simply too hot for me.
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Hmmm, not sure about the science there. Riding for 70 secs is not an endurance activity. And even sprinters do longer training sessions than their actual race times, to build condition and power.

All muscles have a mixture of fast and slow twitch fibres, but the balance will depend on the main role of the muscle (largely mobilising and phasic or stabilising and tonic, although that is a oversimplification). and each individual is of course different.

It may have been that you are simply not blessed with as many fast twitch fibres as you would have liked, and are naturally an endurance athlete. You can train to change this, but it takes specialist work.

The riding would have been unlikely to have made much difference i wouldve thought but i could be wrong! :)
 
A course that gets progressively harder sounds sensible. That and taking away whips and spurs.

Mind you as it is called Modern Pentathlon couldn't a quad bike race or skateboarding be substituted?
 
I understand your point regarding the science, but the problem is not the 70 seconds of competition ,but the hours of hard riding daily over years ,that it takes to produce a competent showjumper . The workload is very bad for fast running.Also remember that if you ride regularly at any serious level you will start to carry injurys,which whilst not being particularly significant over a long distance ,are a nightmare for shorter faster work.
BeesKnees said:
Hmmm, not sure about the science there. Riding for 70 secs is not an endurance activity. And even sprinters do longer training sessions than their actual race times, to build condition and power.

All muscles have a mixture of fast and slow twitch fibres, but the balance will depend on the main role of the muscle (largely mobilising and phasic or stabilising and tonic, although that is a oversimplification). and each individual is of course different.

It may have been that you are simply not blessed with as many fast twitch fibres as you would have liked, and are naturally an endurance athlete. You can train to change this, but it takes specialist work.

The riding would have been unlikely to have made much difference i wouldve thought but i could be wrong! :)
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Mike007 said:
I understand your point regarding the science, but the problem is not the 70 seconds of competition ,but the hours of hard riding daily over years ,that it takes to produce a competent showjumper . The workload is very bad for fast running.
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But the run is 3k isn't it? That is an endurance event not a speed event. I cannot see how riding would effect that. Sorry
 
Why not mark the sj like style jumping? Surely that would enable them to keep the sj but encourage the finer points of equitation rather than the luck of the honest horse who does it despite them...

Possibly coupled to a lengthened run, which makes sense to me, and re-jigging the scoring to ensure all phases are significant.
 
No way on this earth would I let my horse be put foward for this in a million years.

It was awful to watch at times, i dont know who said it but I think it is a case of people being able to say "My horse was at the Olympics" cause I dont think anyone in there right mind would let there horse be put for it after what happen at Beijing. But this is just MHO.

Something has got to be looking into the training as it really lets it down as I really enjoyed watching it. Would be a shame too lose it.
 
Oldenburg27 said:
No way on this earth would I let my horse be put foward for this in a million years.

It was awful to watch at times, i dont know who said it but I think it is a case of people being able to say "My horse was at the Olympics" cause I dont think anyone in there right mind would let there horse be put for it after what happen at Beijing. But this is just MHO.

Something has got to be looking into the training as it really lets it down as I really enjoyed watching it. Would be a shame too lose it.
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Nothing to do with"my horse was at the olympics". So many of the horse suppliers have been long term supporters of the sport. They have put in the hours ,taking horses to so many MP meets over so many years. Its not done for the money. They barely break even. Also so many unpaid helpers,who have put in so many before dawn starts to take horses to distant meets. These are the grass roots of MP.
 
Watching that was not nice perhaps the riding should be replaced with something else it's simply not fair to the horses.
 
Modern Penthathlon is THE Oympic Sport. Trouble is that the weighting of each phase is wrong - that's all.

My daughter used to compete in MP. She always won the fence, never had a pole SJ and was a national level swimmer so was there or thereabouts on the swim. She gave up though because she was an unreliable shot and hated running.

I called her down to see the riding phase today and we had a discussion about whether she should pick it up again (I guarantee that she can ride 200% better than the majority of the 'riders' we saw today).

She went to look up the run and swim scores for her age group and found that she could no way match the run score that is sooooo influential.

She could win the fence without much effort, would be in the top 3 of the swim without trying too hard and would be clear SJ. But she would lose. Because as long as you can run you can win the modern pentathlon.

Until the scoring system is worked out so that all phases are equal, you're not going to get good sport.
 
Mike007 said:
Nothing to do with"my horse was at the olympics". So many of the horse suppliers have been long term supporters of the sport. They have put in the hours ,taking horses to so many MP meets over so many years. Its not done for the money. They barely break even. Also so many unpaid helpers,who have put in so many before dawn starts to take horses to distant meets. These are the grass roots of MP.
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I would NOT subject my horse to that ever, I understand money is lost etc its the same with anything and as i said this was just my opinion.

I know of 1 horse being there because of that!! As i know the owner!!
 
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My son could not believe that these athletes could get a medal the same as Usain Bolt's for being so very cr"p at some thing!!! I don't understand why they don't practise this discipline more??
 
The problem is balance of scoring. You start from a max in riding, in the others you start from an average and go above or below. So no big gains available. I'd suggest a time limit during which you jump a course, only getting points for fences jumped successfully. 50% of fence score for knock down. 3 refusals and round terminated. 6 down and round terminated. Fall of horse and round terminated. 2 falls ode rider and round terminated.
 
Honey08 said:
Also to say that their horse had been to the Olympics??


The fences are too big. They need lowering to 1.05 and some penalties need to be worked out for style too. How many of us complaining would get on a strange horse, with 20 mins to warm up, and only allowed 5 practice fences, and then go round a 1.20m course? I sure as heck wouldn't!
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Umm, anyone who did/ does BUSA/ BUSC... That's the inter-uni sport for those of you who don't know. You ride a novice level dressage test (10 min warm up on a strange horse, picked out of a hat) and then jump a 3 foot SJ course (rising to 4'6 in the finals) having had a 5 min warm up and two practice jumps (ditto, strange horse, picked out of a hat).

I agree though that the scoring is wrong. IMO they should scrap the jumping altogether, since scarely anyone could seemingly even ride a straight line into a fence, let alone see a stride, and instead ride an Elementary dressage test. Then you'd see who could ride a horse in a basic outline and do a little bit of lateral work. They could even make it a Prix Caprilli, with two small fences judged in style, if jumping is so important...

ALSO, they should adopt the Uni scoring system, where riders ride the same horse, the best on that horse gets 0, then the others are given the number of penalty points they are behind the leader. So if the best on a horse has 1 pole, the next best 2 poles, and then two riders with 4 poles down they'd get 0, 20, 60 and 60 (using the MP scoring system of 20 penalties per jump down). That would be fairer on those who had a trickier horse, like the GB girl on the very strong iron grey, which frankly looked dangerous.

PS, still laughing in a horrified manner at the girl who's chesnut jumped out of the ring at the end. It wasn't even strong, she just didn't seem to realise you don't just canter back to the stables at the end of your round!
 
Would a more generous time limit to complete the course not encourage the riders to go for a steady clear rather than an out of control storm round the course?

It was also a very technical course with a lot of related distances. Knowing what a bog I have made of combinations on a strange horse during my riding lessons I'm not surprised so many of them had issues.
 
Useful suggestion. The men were going like one-oh, flattening and having masses of fences down, bad presentation, etc. A slightly less technical course, a bit more like an eventing show-jumping phase and a few more seconds to complete could have stopped some of the carnage. Not myself in favour of eliminating the jumping phase. I estimate that for both men and women, about 10% of the rides were awful ( the US men's rider - geez!), and 15% of the rides for men were competent (both the Hungarians), the women had a few more competent riders. That leaves about 75% in the "ok but not great" category. A little less technical and a little slower would improve these stats. I felt sorry for the Japanese women's rider: the horse jumped every fence so big and if she had trained on more workmanlike horses that would be very difficult to sit, which was evident as she came off. If she got Spike it might have been a very different picture (Spike is the piebald with an interesting back story.)
 
Mike007 said:
3k is basicly a very short jog. In no way is 3k an endurance event.
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It may feel like slow jog (and that is interesting that you found it so easy, as it suggests as I said before that you may be more endurance suited.) However from an anatomical and physiological point of view, 3k is absolutely an endurance event!

Bear in mind that, very simply put, the anaerobic energy system (which fuels fast twitch muscle fibres) runs out at around 3 minutes. The initial creatine system runs out at about 1o seconds! Fast twitch fibres fatigue quickly. So anything up to that point is classed as speed.

Beyond that time, the body switches to aerobic (oxygen and glucose) which fuels the slow twitch fibres. These fibres work at a lower intensity for longer periods but do not produce the same raw power. Hence beyond 3 mins-ish, it all becomes classed as endurance, whether it feels like it or not!

This change is fuel systems is why the human body cannot run (or cycle or swim) at sprinting speed for very long. Of course you train to improve the efficiency of the fuel systems and the removal of lactic acid, but the human body is still limited in what it can physically do.
 
POlotash, re the chesnut - sorry you are wrong there. I was in the stands right next to the exit and the horse was very strong throughout the round and was not in control at all. She was having great difficulty slowing it up at the end. Her inexperience showed in that it was not the time to be close to the exit, but with no control on the horse, easy to criticise.

A few of the women's horses were quite spicy, which surprised me a bit, as I would expect horses to be more of the schoolmaster-showjumper type ( was with an owner of one of those watching). Hers went around calmly and reasonably well ( two fences down then 4 fences down). She didn't feel that her horse was harmed by the experience and any weak rounds were well off-set by the masses of schooling he got during the two week training period.
 
The level of riding was woeful in all but a handful of cases (Ricardo de Luca was a lovely rider). It is unacceptable at Olympic standard that the riding should be so low.

As it's "Modern" pentathlon, they should replace the showjumping with something "modern" like segway racing, or mountain biking.
 
I've read the whole post and I'm not sure how to multi quote so I'm just going to reply generally.

The scoring definitely needs to be adjusted and more weight put on the riding phase as its clear these competitors do not put enough emphasis on their riding practice. And first and foremost this is dangerous. Unlike swimming/running/shooting/fencing if you get it wrong or aren't confident you aren't going to risk yours or an animals life, but in show jumping when you can't ride to an appropriate level and are going in an jumping 1.20 there is a serious risk of accident and injury. Many of the horses used helped a lot of those riders out of very sticky situations and I do not see how that demonstrates qualities of an olympic athlete.
 
Let's hope with golf (don't think that should be an Olympic sport either) being added in Rio the Brazilians will drop Modern Pentathlon. I wondered if you discounted all the spectators who hadn't any connection to the competitors ie coaches, relatives, friends, if there were many people who'd actually paid to watch? Certain from the tv coverage there were very few people watching on the running section.Lot less than the crowds who watched the walks which I wouldn't imagine aren't very popular events for most people to support.
If they HAVE to keep something equestrian in the event, other's suggestion of a dressage test might not be too bad, less likely to damage horses....the riders, well they have a choice to risk their necks and many did just that.
 
I remember on the BBC3 programme about 50 amazing olympic moments (or something like that!) they talked about the shocking riding at Beijing in the pentathlon. One of our GB pentathletes that was there said basically they have loads all the other events to train for and so riding isn't a priority to practice.

Sorry, but I wouldn't enter a pentathlon and not learn how to shoot or fence. I appreciate they're not professional riders but if riding is part of the competition, should they not learn the basics such as setting a horse up and seeing a stride?! Less likely to have fences down or refusals that way!
 
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