Mike007
Well-Known Member
The point that I think you have missed is that your 3 minutes of sprint ,would take you the last 3rd of the run pretty damn fast,yet over 10 k it would mean little.
Why the hell is Pentathlon an Olympic sport?
- Thread starter MissMincePie&Brandy
- Start date
The point that I think you have missed is that your 3 minutes of sprint ,would take you the last 3rd of the run pretty damn fast,yet over 10 k it would mean little.
Suechoccy
Well-Known Member
Lets close all riding schools because the learners are going to hurt the horses at some point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, the point is these are OLYMPIC standard athletes. Therefore we would (well I would, naively perhaps) expecting them to ride at a pretty good level, at least a competent level, preferrably riding at an Olympic level.
I do not expect to see them riding in the style of someone who's bloody brave but has never learnt to sit in balance on a horse, and who thinks it is acceptable to hang onto the reins grimly, socking the horse over each jump in the mouth, or pulling it over backwards in a rear.
No way was that "riding" in any shape or form.
Beginners and improvers in a riding school, whole different scenario. They are learning. They will make mistakes.
At Olympic level, these riders should be able to ride. They can shoot and fence okay, so why not ride? Lack of instruction. Lack of time spent being instructed on a showjumping horse in how to ride showjumping style.
philamena
Well-Known Member
Even Jabeena Maslin who does some of the coaching and provides horses is quoted in last week's H&H saying some of them "can't even do rising trot". Not sure any other sport would settle for such incompetence in one of it's "phases"?
philamena
Well-Known Member
Soz can't edit on phone. One of "its" phases.
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
Nope wasn't talking about the 3k vs 10k discussion. I was discussing your assertion that riding well is deleterious to speed running ability. My point is that you aren't speed running at 3k. It isn't physically possible!
So therefore i cant see how riding well would affect your ability to run 3k well. IMO that is an excuse frankly for either lack of riding talent, or not putting the work in.
Whether the sport would benefit from a Change to a longer run I've no idea.
Dizzyblonde99
Well-Known Member
Anyone intrested in watching any - couple of videos on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKwIGdX6UUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKwIGdX6UUY
ClobellsandBaubles
Well-Known Member
I agree I am sure that's how they run the Uni MP here or at least the stables insists it is
They get a score for faults and a score for style over each fence.The way tit is scored means that this IS the Olympic level of MP riding you don't HAVE to be any better especially if you can run fast to make up the places. Maybe the riding should come last to eliminate that effect of the running.
I definitely think maybe no time or a much longer one would encourage better riding and more sensible scoring in order to increase the significance of the riding would help increase the standard. I really enjoy the MP, it's a really interesting mix of events and one we do well in, but I agree it could do with a rejig to give the riding more weight. Taking it out of the Olympics is not going to increase the standard it just means you don't have to watch which I don't think the right way to go.
At the moment the quality of riding you see is Olympic level in this event and steps need to be taken to improve this to make it more equal with the other events. Maybe funding and training needs to be looked at as well?? More publicity can only help in this respect.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
You may not be able to see how riding affects running ,but it does . Most of the work done in jumping is work to maintain a position, antagonistic muscle groups working to keep the body in ballance. None of this is the sort of explosive fast twitch effort of ,for example a sprinter. So from this point of view it is liable to make a runner one paced (slower).Add to this the fact that ,particularly in men, a large additional mass of muscle is being developed ,which is not required for running ,and is in effect dead weight to be carried. Furthermore, increased muscle mass in the lower leg has to be accelerated and decelerated with each stride. This saps a lot of energy. Whilst cross training by running is good for a rider , riding is definately not good for a serious runner.
MissMincePie&Brandy
Well-Known Member
I do hope you aren't blaming the horses! All of those horses jumped that same course in the same arena very well with their owners or regular riders on board in the practise sessions prior to the weekend.
A well mannered schoolmaster of competition calibre, can quickly turn into a quirky wreck with a nervous / heavy handed / unbalanced novicy rider on board, and this is what we saw happening with those horses.
It saddened me to watch over and over, how quickly bad riding was causing the loss of confidence in such super horses.
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I think your science is wrong.
1. Jumping is not just about holding one position, but also about fast phasing flexion around the hip joint, using abs, adductors and hip flexors, and then extension using the Glutes and back extensors. This is equivalent to the swing and propulsion stages of running. In fact the Anterior Oblique sling that would be active during the fold of jumping (abs, adductors) is a crucial part of running and enables the torso and limbs to be accelerated but also to stabilise the torso on top of the pelvis.
2. In ALL activity muscles are working to keep the body in balance and upright, especially in running when you are effectively on one leg for most of the time! Furthermore most muscles play at least some part in both mobilising and stabilising. They switch focus according to the challenge being asked of them and use different fibres within the muscle to perform different roles.
3. What is the huge additional muscle mass being developed?
Ultimately, the point surely is that the Pentathlete is not a serious runner. They' re a serious multi-disciplinary athlete, and part of the challenge is being good at all the tasks irrespective of what effects that may have.
Throwing the javelin isn't particularly beneficial for running. Ever looked at a javelin thrower and though yep they're built to run?
But the Heptathlete still has to reach a certain standard to compete successfully.Bottom line is , if you aren't good enough at the riding, then you aren't a Pentathlete.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
We shall just have to agree to disagree. It is clear to me that you simply dont understand what is involved .
Bestdogdash
Well-Known Member
In no way can a 3km jog be described as an endurance event (unless you are very unfit or fat). Surely anyone who is fit enough to ride a horse properly could run/jog 3km ? I accept a 3km race run properly at pace does involve endurance, but not a jog ! If a person can't jog 3km then they seriously need to have a conversation with themselves and sort it out.
I would also like to say all this whining about the M. Pentathlon is rather boring. It is a wonderful sport. No one is forced to lend their horses, and the riding is significantly better than a lot I see at any BSJA competition, or indeed on videos posted on this site, all of which are met with 'well done you' 'ahw - lovely' type comments for the most appalling riding. Double standards ?
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
No, I just work in fitness, physio and rehab (for a business that works with elite level athletes) and have to understand this stuff for a living.........
Lets not let accurate, up to date, understanding of the anatomy and physiology of how the body moves to get in the way of a good excuse, though eh
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
As I explained in my post, it doesn't matter what it feels like (that will depend on your fitness and ability), as far as the physiological mechanisms of the human body and the way it burns fuel to produce energy are concerned, 3k (that is 3000 metres, over half of the 5k run that Mo Farah does) is an 'endurance' process. This is fact, not opinion!
I don't think it is literally raced as a jog anyway. I think Mike was using that term euphamistically to indicate it was too easy and should be lengthened.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
No, I just work in fitness, physio and rehab (for a business that works with elite level athletes) and have to understand this stuff for a living.........
Lets not let accurate, up to date, understanding of the anatomy and physiology of how the body moves to get in the way of a good excuse, though eh
None of which ,sadly, convinces me that you have much idea of what is involved physicaly in both jumping and running or the problems of training.
Haha
Well-Known Member
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
On the contrary I've given plenty of evidence that I do understand what is happening in the body during these activities. It doesn't however tally with the reason you've bought into as to why you couldn't get your running times quicker. I think that is why you choose to reject it.
On the other hand you have given me no convincing science backing up your reasoning. Please point me in the direction of it so that I can learn what it is that I am so misunderstanding. Seriously, I'm always keen to improve my understanding. It helps me work with my clients and help them find a way to reach their goals, rather than telling them one aspect of the sport they do is making it impossible for them to do another aspect well.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with my running times ,LOL. It is to do with everyones running times . The Greater BMI you have ,the harder it is to achieve a fast run ,it doesnt matter whether it is fat you are carrying or muscle development which is not required for running. The end result is that you are slower. Surely you can grasp this simple point. And hard riding such as cross country or steeplechasing , definately builds up muscle groups that are not required for running.
BeesKnees
Well-Known Member
Yes I understand the theory your are giving. But you are not providing me with good physiological evidence as to why this is true, or why it applies to pentathlon.
On the other hand I've given you clear explanation of how the muscle function used in jumping is recruiting the same muscles in a similar way to running. Did you read any of that?
Your reasoning is also muddled. i.e. that BMI makes speed difficult. Have you seen the sprinters? They are massive! Speed requires muscle strength and power. Those ahtletes have a very high BMI.
Endurance running however is indeed different. But you keep arguing that the run in the pentathlon is not endurance and I'm the one who doesn't understand
Finally, who's talking about doing cross country or ateeplechasing? You are not doing cross country or steeplechasing, you are doing short show jumping rounds, so why would that even come into the discussion? I find your reasoning really hard to follow and it sounds like someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about. Perhaps you do know, but it doesn't come across like that.
I give up! Have a good evening.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Yes I certainly read it and it left me wondering if you have ever ridden in any form of competetive jumping. I mentioned x country and steeplechasing because they are very clear examples of why it is not the way you claim . 99% of the physical effort is in maintaining ballance in a 2 point seat. The actual movement at a jump is a negligable effort in comparison. Tremendous strength is required but it certainly is not from fast twitch muscle. Any way ,you are not going to convince me that after 40 odd years directly or indirectly involved with sport and training and of which ,probably 30 were spent in fairly hard training personaly, that what I have observed is wrong.So have a good evening and think about it a bit.
Sparkles
Well-Known Member
If the riding standard shown in pentathlon riding, short of maybe one or two riders who do have more riding experience than others, is now claiming to be better than BSJA standard, then my god, reality check needed.
Forget the muscle and anatomy functions of an athlete [And just for kicks, no I could not in anyway run 3km! Yet, I can ride non-stop on various horses all day 8-9hours no problem so not a valid argument in my view on that.]. Try learning to realise when a canter is disunited going round a course, collecting the horse back onto it's haunches correct and setting it up to the fence on the correct stride, or clearing the 'airy' uprights cleanly!
2 or 3 clear rounds in the mens last weekend, out of how many? If that was a standard BSJA class, that would be mortifying having 2 or 3 people in a jump off at that level in a class of that many!!!!
All this hype about it being strange horse to ride and only 20 minutes, is really NOT that big of a deal. It's a 1m-1m20 course. On previous BSJA horses and proven hunters, that should be a doddle for anyone less than an amateur. They know their job and at that height, should be genuine and experienced enough to cope with an amateur on them and get them round the course, albeit, knocking a few poles or taking dodgy strides from rider error. Pony club and college or university equestrian teams, the format is exactly the same as far as horse and rider matching is done - we were picked horses out of a hat at other teams centres and given 15-20 minutes warm-up before our rounds [XC or SJ and dressage] and expected results. Lacking standards were not tolerated and you were expected as a rider to be able to get that tune out of your horse to get round a course that height cleanly.
Any Olympic BSJA rider could swap horses and do a round of 1m-1m20 cleanly.
It's an unwritten rule BSJA that almost any amateur could get up to the 1m30's sometimes on a genuine horse. It takes talant from both horse andrider to do the classes 1m40 and above.
If they want it to 'riding', then the element should be dressage. At least then they actually get marked on way of going, rider, accuracy, etc. And the only thing the horses legs can get knocked on is white plastic boards!
I could go on. But I'll leave it at that.
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St Nicnaclaus
Well-Known Member
Not getting into the debate about fast muscles twitching, BUT delighted to read that I have the body of a sprinter - well, I have their BMI
I am also having a conversation with myself - not hugely fat nor hugely unfit but can't run 3km due to shin splints and knackered knees.
I do love a generalisation
armchair_rider
Well-Known Member
I am having a serious conversation with myself
I shut my mouth with a chocolate digestive
Mithras
Well-Known Member
Well, at my best I was a sub 12 minute 3k/3000m runner (not elite level but enough to win a few low level races), and the latter half of my running career at my peak was combined with showjumping. And that was when I set all my endurance running pbs (as opposed to track pbs over shorter distances). I don't think it detrimental at all, I 'm not sure what you are referring to in developing a large additional muscle mass. I do think the riding made me more efficient, another benefit is that going to 3 and 4 days shows away from home uses up so much energy, it tends to keep your weight down for running!
The only slight detrimental effect I find is that its hard but not impossible to do a good track session on the same day that I ride, or the day after a competition. Its the same type of tiredness that I would get if I did a gym session first.
I know several other riders who are successful runners. Your theory would also apply to cycling, but more so, yet triathletes like the Brownlees and Tim Don do sub 30 min 10ks!
As for the 3k distance, I suspect it is set at that for the following reasons:
- It sits well with the swim distance and doesn't tip the balance in favour of the run
- Its short enough for an athlete to train to a good level performance without having to train full time for one event
- 3k is a middle distance endurance event and doesn't overly favour pure endurance athletes who tend to be of a very specific body type. The 3k allows all athletes to compete on as equal terms as possible, subject to training, as speed based middle distance athletes tend to carry more muscle mass than pure 10k runners.
And yes, of course 3k/3000m is an endurance event.
As for the Modern Pentathlon, I do think it belongs in the Olympics, but the riding section should perhaps be given more weight, so as to ensure some of the more incompetent riders spend more time learning the discipline. But overall, I think its very hard to reach a high level of competence in those disciplines - the modern pentathletes I know (who didn't make the team) are very talented runners performing at a high level indeed who have also been competitive swimmers and riders.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
You make some good points,but fundamentaly the problem remains that due to the scoring being weighted towards swimmers/runners, Mens MP is prdominantly athletes who couldnt quite cut it as swimmers or runners. Those from a riding background are seldom fast enough hence they just dont make it to the games.Even the shoot has now been bastardised into some "fairground" game.Oh and Mithras ,you say that 3k is an endurance event ,well with a time of sub 12 minutes it probably is for you. You would need to knock minutes off of that to even be in contention at MP.
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Mithras
Well-Known Member
Gosh, that was rude! where did I suggest I was in contention for the Olympics? The modern pentatletes I know run around 10.30 on the track, but even my 11.28 might have got me on some countries teams if I was strong in the other 4 disciplines not that I've ever considered it.
3000m is definately an endurance event, im sorry to say that you don't really sound as if you know what you are talking about. I think you probably don't have much background in proper track training, and that explains your lack of speed in running - you didn't develop the necessary motor skills as a junior. You mention you have done a 3 hour marathon - this is a mediocre time for a man. Neither I think does the public particularly want to see mediocre standard club runners running 10k in 37 mins or so, so sorry I think 3k is a better distance for the mp. As for encouraging older competitors, the age dynamic in mp seems similar to atletics, although the oldest female competitor was 36.
one of the other problems mp must face is that its hardly an easy sport to participate in, due to the difficulties in organising it!
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Sorry if you thought that was rude mithras ,it was merely a statement of fact. Back when the ponyclub tetrathlon was 3k ,that would have got about 600 points ,some pony club members were sub 10 minutes(and this is cross country not track. As for maraton running, its not so much that I did A maraton in under 3 hours ,but rather the fact that I could trot out a 3 hour marathon pretty well any time I wanted without training . I would often just go for a 26 mile run purely for the hell of it. I ran to keep fit for point to pointing but later it simply became a habit.I completely fail to follow your "logic" that raising the run to 10 k would fill it with mediocre runners. The point is that fencing shooting and riding skills do develop with age and runners tend to drift more into longer races as they get older . But it doesnt make them mediocre.
Carefreegirl
Well-Known Member
Quality
Quote: You mention you have done a 3 hour marathon - this is a mediocre time for a man.
Blimey ! My husband did the London marathon a couple of years ago in under 3 hours - I'm going to go down stairs now and tell him he's 'mediocre'
This obviously a fact because the first time he did it it took him 3hrs 5 mins - I married a failure
Mithras
Well-Known Member
Yes, lets talk facts. Power of Ten gives Sam Murray's 1500m pb as 5.09, no 3000m pb but double it, assuming no loss of speed at all over double the distance, and it still doesn't give you your sub 10 minute 3k time. And she won the silver medal last week!
Mhairi Spence, who finished 21st but was expected to place higher than Sam, has a 3000m pb listed of 11.12, though I'm pretty sure she has done sub 11. There is a reason the GB selectors base squad selection on track times - because they are reliable and accurate. Cross country times are irrelevant, as distances can be widely out and are often under-distance. And might I suggest those sub 10 minute 3k runners, if female, that you claim to have witnessed, would have been filling the British athletics squad with those sort of times if they replicated them on the track - 9.30 odds would be the marker of a female athlete at elite level, and they would hardly be bothering with MP if they could run that fast.
When my husband did his one and only marathon in 2.43.33 (he's a triathlete), he was ranked 288th in the UK, according to Power of Ten. Its hardly world beating. I know quite a few elite level runners, ie sub 30 min 10k or sub 2.30 marathoners, who win local races and achieve regional representation, but they're too busy actually getting results to tell people how good they would be if they trained more.
I appreciate that you obviously think MP is an easy event and that people like you should represent the UK, but I think you are underestimating the standard, and over-estimating your own talent. Fair enough if you actually go down to your local track, do the training to get your times down (ie something like 20 x 400m in 65-68s, which is what the local 10k winners are doing) but I don't really want to see athletes of the standard who you can see at any local race in the top thirty or so in the Olympics, much as I don't want to see novice horseriders. Your 3 hour marathon is actually only just under 7 minute mile pace, whereas an 11.28 3000m is around 6 minute miling.
The facts are that there are relatively few fast 3000m runners and rather a lot of 3 hour male marathon runners. Furthermore, HHO does seem to feature rather a lot of people who claim miraculous running feats on little or no training, but I never see them listed in Athletics Weekly as winning races or with a Power of Ten ranking.
Most of the athletes winning longer races such as marathons, come from a track background and go up in distance, not because they develop more stamina, but because they lose speed as they get older and longer distances races are run at a slower pace. There are however plenty of endurance runners aged 21-22, UK domestic endurance running is currently dominated by Steph Twell, Charlotte Purdue, etc..
You are simply not going to come anywhere near winning even the most provincial UK marathon with a time of 3 hours. Hence my mediocre comment. For example, in last year's Luton Marathon, which was won in a disappointing 2.35, which is slower than the Olympic qualifying time for the women by around 7 minutes, you would have placed only 25th, and this is hardly a big marathon.
There is also no reason to say fencing and riding skills develop with age. Some people are more talented than others and learn things more quickly. And a good runner will run a good 3k at any reasonable age - look at Helen Clitheroe winning her first European Championship at 3000m at the age of 39 this year!
I don't really think changing the run to 10k would add to the quality of the event. It would be dull to watch, and I'm not sure how it would fit into the Olympic scheduling.
Foxy9212
New User
There would also have been a pretty high death rate of animals used in the original Olympics.
Times have changed, and no one wants to see horses having their teeth pulled out, huge unbalanced dead weights bouncing off those poor horses spines, poor horses being driven into 1.2m fences on the worst possible line, etc, etc. Some horses became visibly distressed.
Perhaps Pentahlon should do prelim dressage test instead
I would imagine there would be no time for dressage tests; it seemed the show-jumping element was designed to be finished in the least possible amount of time. Perhaps it would have been better to allow a more generous time for the course to avoid the unedifying sight of so many 'riders' hurtling round, completely out of control, putting both themselves and their mounts in danger. The commentator went to great lengths to tell the viewers it was the riding that was being judged and not the horses' ability, also that it didn't matter about poles being rolled. It seemed to me that poles being rolled was the only criterion as there were no penalties for hanging on by reins or jagging of mouths.
I saw the riding and combined events only but I did think those two/three looked very amateurish and not in the least Olympic, a pity as I have huge admiration for multi-talented athletes (being not one of them).
Fox