Wildlife Crime doubles at the hands of the Hunting Fraternity.

[General]

Crimes against wildlife, including badger baiting with dogs, hare coursing, poisoning of protected birds and even trapping them to sell as caged pets have soared to unprecedented heights. New figures from the police show that the number of wildlife crimes more than doubled in the last year, from 2,177 to 5,854.

Incidents are now being recorded at a rate of 120 a week. They cover not only the slaughtering of badgers and rare birds of prey, but also egg thefts, bird trapping, deer poaching and habitat destruction.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/wildlife-crime-britains-killing-fields-1812915.html

As we know, the Nature of the Beast never changes.

Lord__Blairite

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

The wildlife crime figure for organised fox, stag or hare hunts last season was zero so your argument makes no sense.

Of course Joseph we all know that the nature of the twaddle you spout never changes.

 

[R2R]

The wildlife crime figure for organised fox, stag or hare hunts last season was zero so your argument makes no sense.

Of course Joseph we all know that the nature of the twaddle you spout never changes.

3 prosecutions of hunts in 5 years - the Hunting Act is a failure - Lord-Blairite your argument makes no sense?

 

[General]

So, do tell who it is doing all of this killing? LACS perhaps??

Regards

 

[the watcher]

Perhaps the effects of the Hunting legislation on the natural custodians of the countryside has left it open to abuse by the very people who objected to hunting on political grounds

 

[joe_carby]

if this is all legitimate evidence and properly proven why arnt there 100's of people been prosecuted oh ye cos your talkin out of your arse.

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

Sorry if I am being obtuse but are you intending to make a rational argument?

You say that fox hunts are stealing eggs?

 

[jrp204]

Those pesky hounds are getting good at climbing trees!

 

[SpottedCat]

Crimes against wildlife, including badger baiting with dogs, hare coursing, poisoning of protected birds and even trapping them to sell as caged pets have soared to unprecedented heights. New figures from the police show that the number of wildlife crimes more than doubled in the last year, from 2,177 to 5,854.

Incidents are now being recorded at a rate of 120 a week. They cover not only the slaughtering of badgers and rare birds of prey, but also egg thefts, bird trapping, deer poaching and habitat destruction.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/wildlife-crime-britains-killing-fields-1812915.html

As we know, the Nature of the Beast never changes.

Lord__Blairite

Nothing to do with the ban at all. Everything to do with the fact that now most forces have a wildlife crime officer and it is all taken much more seriously these days, which is a combination of Europe weighing in on issues such as how we had interpreted legislation surrounding Appropriate Assessment, higher public awareness and greater Governmental influence - this is all higher up the priority list now. Add to that the tightening of the legislation with the 2000 CRoW act and hey presto the figures go up.

I don't think wildlife crime has doubled, I think that finally, and not before time, this type of crime is being taken seriously and being prosecuted.

I know since I started as an ecologist it is now much easier and more likely that someone who breaks the law will get prosecuted successfully.

 

[siennamum]

So stick that in yer pipe & smoke it LB!!

 

[Scratchline]

[/quote]3 prosecutions of hunts in 5 years - the Hunting Act is a failure - Lord-Blairite your argument makes no sense? [/quote]

Excuse me but doesnt your above figures state clearly the hunting act is a marvelous success?

 

[Scratchline]

Perhaps the effects of the Hunting legislation on the natural custodians of the countryside

Hi mother_hen ) Surely you are not suggesting the 'custodians of the countryside', have given up there charitable work all because they cannot chase and kill foxes for a hobby? Are the ex hunters really that shallow and uncaring? Surely you are mistaken (

 

[Scratchline]

if this is all legitimate evidence and properly proven why arnt there 100's of people been prosecuted oh ye cos your talkin out of your arse.

Your mummy really needs to teach you some manners little boy! lol

 

[Scratchline]

Sorry if I am being obtuse but are you intending to make a rational argument?

You say that fox hunts are stealing eggs?

Are you not going to address the points about badgers and hare coursing because the increase IS dramatic? ) Hi bud.

 

[Scratchline]

Great post. Shame once again the silly responses came before your own inteligent one ;o)

 

[R2R]

3 prosecutions of hunts in 5 years - the Hunting Act is a failure - Lord-Blairite your argument makes no sense? [/quote]

Excuse me but doesnt your above figures state clearly the hunting act is a marvelous success? [/quote]

3 prosecustions in 5 years - basic maths = about 350 packs of hounds hunting (and supposedly killing and huning according to you) twice a week = 700 hunting days a week, multipy this by 30 as approximate seasons hunting = 21000 days hunting. This means approximately 105,000 days hunting has resulted in 3 succesfull prosecutions - an approximate figure of 1 in every 35000 hunting days.

That and there must be thousands and thousands of hours of footage by "monitors" and "antis" which has resulted in nothing - and you are telling me the law is working? Get real. Even on those approximate figures, you can see what a farce it al is - its a totaly stupid law, and all that article proves is the wildlife is LESS looked after since the government changed what has been the natural balance of the countryside for centuries. If anything, the marked increase in shooting and snaring has resulted in MORE foxes being killed since the act came into force...something that is clearly OK with the antis, as noone in a pink coat on a horse is doing it.

 

[joe_carby]

well said R2R

 

[Scratchline]

[/quote]3 prosecustions in 5 years - basic maths = about 350 packs of hounds hunting (and supposedly killing and huning according to you) twice a week = 700 hunting days a week, multipy this by 30 as approximate seasons hunting = 21000 days hunting. This means approximately 105,000 days hunting has resulted in 3 succesfull prosecutions - an approximate figure of 1 in every 35000 hunting days.

That and there must be thousands and thousands of hours of footage by "monitors" and "antis" which has resulted in nothing - and you are telling me the law is working? Get real. Even on those approximate figures, you can see what a farce it al is - its a totaly stupid law, [/quote]

Facts and figures by the bus load, thanks for proving my point. The law is working just fine then. All those hunts, all those hounds, all that footage and only 3 prosecutions so far? Then the law is working so YOU GET REAL! The hunts have been stopped by the law and your evidence proves this. Foxes are not being caught in the way they were before the law. Example just for you ) A Country where murder is legal and hundreds of people die in that way every year suddenly bans murder. Several years later, murder convictions drop to only three convictions because no one murders any more. Is that simple enough for you ? )

and all that article proves is the wildlife is LESS looked after since the government changed what has been the natural balance of the countryside for centuries. If anything, the marked increase in shooting and snaring has resulted in MORE foxes being killed since the act came into force...something that is clearly OK with the antis, as noone in a pink coat on a horse is doing it.

No the article proves wildlife protection is much more on the agenda and more is being done to combat it as posted by a previous poster.
The increase in shooting by the gun happy and snaring by the sick is a totally seperate issue. If it has increased and we all believe it is wrong address that issue. One, snaring, is covered already by the law so if any of you know those involved why not do the decent thing and report them? We all know our local bad lad poachers etc and here we are stating we care about animal welfare so where are the balls to do something about it I wonder?!
My stance on shooting foxes is and has always been clear enough. Only licensed riflemen should be doing any necessary killing.

 

[Scratchline]

well said R2R

?????????? PMSL

 

[R2R]

The antis are seriously divided. On one hand you get a load of them saying the Hunting Act is working and no foxes are being killed, then you have another lot of antis saying that hunts are still hunting foxes and the law isn't working and needs enforcing and they are all going undercover to prove it.

Then you come along and say that snaring is covered by law (it is still legal, and one of the legal methods to kill a fox, as far as I know) and that it is not OK to shoot a fox but it is OK if you are a trained rifleman - so IF what you are saying is that it is OK for a professional to kill a fox when it needs doing, then why are you anti hunt and for the banning of the true, professional people that manage the fox population....huntsmen?

I suggest you find an argument you all agree on with regards to the repeal of the Hunting Act - at least the hunting community is united in the belief that its a bad law!

As for your argument about killing foxes, its all twaddle and no one has proved that hunting is more or less cruel than any other method of killing animals, which leads me to think your issue is more to do with the people on the horses than the actual activity of killing a fox, and if you have a problem with people on horseback riding across the country, then why the hell are you on the horse and hound forum?

 

[combat_claire]

Long before the Hunting Act was passed these wildlife crimes were illegal under various laws included the Badger Act and various poaching statutes, following the passing of the Hunting Act many crimes originally covered by older poaching laws were prosecuted under the Hunting Act 2004.

This allowed the RSPCA and LACS to trumpet how many prosecutions there had been under the Hunting Act and what a success it was. However they failed to note that of traditional forms of hunting, there have been just 3 successful prosecutions in nearly 5 years.

Round here in particular (I live in the Fens) illegal coursing and poaching has always been a problem and is a world away from organised coursing. There is also a culture of violence against landowners who tackle these people. We are not talking about some Greengrass type character taking 'one for the pot' but organised gangs taking stealing venison on a commercial business footing or who place bets on whose dog will drag down a deer first.

Trying to pin the rise in wildlife crime stats on the hunting fraternity is totally spurious.

 

[Scratchline]

The 'anti's', as you group them are all individuals so opinion differs. So what?! And no, 'hunters', are not all agreed, many enjoy hunting as it is now and are also against repeal.
Fox snaring is covered by the law under the Wildlife and Countryside act so yes 'I come along saying so'. Problem???

{quote}and that it is not OK to shoot a fox but it is OK if you are a trained rifleman - so IF what you are saying is that it is OK for a professional to kill a fox when it needs doing, then why are you anti hunt and for the banning of the true, professional people that manage the fox population....huntsmen?{quote}

Because I do not believe for one second foxes should be dealt with in any way other than with high powered rifles. And very few huntsmen are professional as for most it is a hobby. As for all us antis finding an arguement we all agree on why should we? We have the public and law on our side even without all agreeing exactly thanks.

{quote}As for your argument about killing foxes, its all twaddle and no one has proved that hunting is more or less cruel than any other method of killing animals, which leads me to think your issue is more to do with the people on the horses than the actual activity of killing a fox, and if you have a problem with people on horseback riding across the country, then why the hell are you on the horse and hound forum? {quote}

Oh please dont be pathetic. I have absolutely no problem with people on horseback riding across the country. I do so myself. I have a problem with fox hunting as was so stop pretending you know me and my mind! This is a public forum for those of us with common interests. The hunting section is very small and mostly ignored by forum members.

 

[Scratchline]

I agree with your post )))

 

[the watcher]

'Surely you are not suggesting the 'custodians of the countryside', have given up there charitable work all because they cannot chase and kill foxes for a hobby? Are the ex hunters really that shallow and uncaring? Surely you are mistaken ( '

Err no! But an interesting interpretation (reminder to self, stick to words of one syllable when talking to Scratchline)

Animals have been lawfully hunted and killed in the countryside for generations and still are, you may not appreciate pheasant drives or deer stalking but it still happens and results in a curatorship of the countryside. In the same way hunting with hounds, now trail following, supported the same principles. Without these activities many of our woodlands and hedges would not exist.

It would not be surprising though for the pressures exerted by a minority of politically motivated people to contribute to a lessening of this lawful activity leaving a breach which will naturally be filled. The filling is criminality, badger baiting, poaching, hare coursing - often accompanied by violence, theft and other criminal acts.

You may be celebrating this rise in recorded incidents - believe me for those of us who live in rural areas and are exposed to it there is little to celebrate.

And no, maintenance of woodlands and hedgerows and waterways (or charitable work if you prefer) has not declined yet but ultimately it will.

 

[combat_claire]

Don't they say there are lies, damned lies and statistics!

 

[Scratchline]

Err no! But an interesting interpretation (reminder to self, stick to words of one syllable when talking to Scratchline)

No need. I read what you posted and responded.

It would not be surprising though for the pressures exerted by a minority of politically motivated people to contribute to a lessening of this lawful activity leaving a breach which will naturally be filled. The filling is criminality, badger baiting, poaching, hare coursing - often accompanied by violence, theft and other criminal acts.

If this is the case then that criminal activity needs addressing although I agree with the other poster that any rise was already actually happening. Now, law enforcement has merely opened its eyes to it.

You may be celebrating this rise in recorded incidents - believe me for those of us who live in rural areas and are exposed to it there is little to celebrate.

I will not respond more than this to that rather childish, untrue dig at me which tbh I had thought YOU were above making.

 

[Scratchline]

They certainly do CC lol lol Hope you are well but must fly. Got a new 'baby', to prepare for. Will explain another time )

 

[combat_claire]

Ooh good luck Scratchline. Look forward to the update.

 

[the watcher]

'

You may be celebrating this rise in recorded incidents - believe me for those of us who live in rural areas and are exposed to it there is little to celebrate.

I will not respond more than this to that rather childish, untrue dig at me which tbh I had thought YOU were above making. '

Quite right, that one was actually intended for the OP, but I had so many interruptions while posting that I completely lost my train of thought, so apologies for that

 

[R2R]

Because I do not believe for one second foxes should be dealt with in any way other than with high powered rifles. And very few huntsmen are professional as for most it is a hobby. As for all us antis finding an argument we all agree on why should we? We have the public and law on our side even without all agreeing exactly thanks.

The above just shows your ignorance. Huntsmen work full time and are paid for it - therefore they are professionals! You clearly have zero understanding about the way hunting operates other than an argument based on little fact and alot of sentimentality; therefore how exactly are you qualified to comment on it?

By the way, the g'ment enquiry found that hunting was no more cruel than snaring or shooting. You can still snare a fox, it is perfectly legal, however you have to conform to certain standards. You can still shoot a fox, and you can still, effectively, hunt a fox with dogs (terrier exemption) however you cant hunt a fox with a field of people and huntsmen in pink coats, because people don't like what they represent - all of the above, to be frank, ,end up with a dead fox and are legal, hunting ends up with a dead fox and is illegal, so you go figure how it makes sense, because I cant, and nor can thousands of other people.

Ultimately the death of any animal is not ever nice however sometimes there are reasons for it and at least hunting (traditional) has its benefits in the way it is final (as in the fox always dies quickly unlike shooting or snaring) and selective. The law is about class hatred, hatred for those mounted on horseback, hatred for what they are perceived to represent, and nothing at all to do with animal welfare, the protection of wild animals. The law has no benefit to the wild mammal population whatsoever.

I fear that your issue is not with the death of a fox, and more so with the resentment of a group of people who are stronger, more determined and united than any anti will ever be.