will my bitch still be pregnant?

CaveCanem said:
The register is not a bad idea but the KC can't even seem to crack down on the wheeler-dealers of pedigrees......

Breeding moratoriums have been mentioned on here before. I think it is worth consideration, actually. There would obviously have to be some sort of exemptions for things like working dogs, rare/at risk breeds etc.

And yes, I saw unregistered Maltese pups in the papers for £1200 once.
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Maybe we could form a new KC:D
Scary what people pay for those tiny ones:(

Yes, of course certain breeds/types would need special consideration.

Sorry, I think about this a lot. Am somewhat obsessed with it really:o
 
Arizahn said:
So what do you do if you actually do prefer mongrels? Or feel that paying the cost of a small mortgage for a dog is unacceptable? Why can't there be a middle ground, where mongrel types are bred as pets, but under some sort of regulated conditions that ensure their welfare and prevent too many litters per year from being bred? Say where would-be breeders have to have their dogs assessed for health and temperament and then if deemed suitable they get assigned onto a waiting list for when they can breed a litter.

Maybe no one should be allowed to breed any more dogs at all until all the ones that already exist have homes...
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I know what you mean.

I have had pedigree dogs over the last decade but I get shocked by the irresponsibility of some of these breeders that I have come across. I don't really see how a line can be drawn which equals crossbreds bad, pedigrees good.

I think the conjoined dog breed names are really annoying but people are willing to pay the money...and pedigree dogs are often inbred and foolishly bred, I really don't see the difference myself. There are kind, thoughtful breeders and those just in it for the money.

If somebody has a crossbreed bitch that they love and that is healthy and with a good temperament and wants to keep a puppy from that litter and knows a friend who is also interested in one, and then advertises the others, after giving them the best start in life possible, and has an open door policy for problems, I don't see that they should be judged as inferior to a responsible pedigree breeder.
 
Arizahn said:
I love the fact that no one likes my suggestion of a properly run register for breeding non pedigrees, and that apparently stopping breeding whilst we have more dogs than homes isn't practical:rolleyes:.
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No, I agree dog breeding ought to be registered, but who will pay, organise and enforce? Someone suggested a moratorium on staffie breeding for a couple of years if we are to save the breed: I quite agree, every other dog round here is a staff. I dread to think what it's doing to the gene pool. :( I wonder also if you were to DNA test, how many locally would be related? :(

I would far rather pay an awful lot more than I did for a decently bred pup from health tested parent, certainly, but having looked recently on the KC website for a health tested springer pup (just for laughs! :eek:) they are few and far between. I'm happy to wait for the right lines and pup now I actually know what to look for, but I'd be hard pressed to find one with the markings, temperament and lineage I want. I see why people just buy from byb. :(

As for the designer crossbreeds, don't get me started! I can only hope it's a phase which will die out soon.
 
Some stuff about dogs...

McCourty, C Origin of dogs traced (2002) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2498669.stm

University of Arizona. "Ancient domesticated dog skull found in Siberian cave: 33,000 years old." ScienceDaily, 23 Jan. 2012. Web. 13 May 2012.

Nikolai D. Ovodov, Susan J. Crockford, Yaroslav V. Kuzmin, Thomas F. G. Higham, Gregory W. L. Hodgins, Johannes van der Plicht. A 33,000-Year-Old Incipient Dog from the Altai Mountains of Siberia: Evidence of the Earliest Domestication Disrupted by the Last Glacial Maximum. PLoS ONE, 2011; 6 (7): e22821 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0022821

Expertanswer (Expertsvar in Swedish). "First dogs came from East Asia, genetic study confirms." ScienceDaily, 23 Nov. 2011. Web. 13 May 2012.
Z-L Ding, M Oskarsson, A Ardalan, H Angleby, L-G Dahlgren, C Tepeli, E Kirkness, P Savolainen, Y-P Zhang. Origins of domestic dog in Southern East Asia is supported by analysis of Y-chromosome DNA. Heredity, 2011; DOI: 10.1038/hdy.2011.114

Enjoy:D
 
Arizahn said:
Wrote my dissertation on dogs in ancient society, it was fun to research.
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But those dogs were not bred for quick cash.

Poor breeding is poor breeding whether pure bred or not. ( & you have made the common mistake iof confusing breed & pedigree (a pure bred is always pedigree but a pedigree is not always pure bred)
The problem is that people will purchase poorly bred puppies and/or puppies that have no hope of suiting their lifestyle so these puppies get dumped on rescues.

What are people paying money for crossbreeds? Ignorance!

The original breeder of Labradoodles only did the cross because there were no large standard poodles or curly coated retrievers ( & he didn't know of Russian black terriers, Airedales, Giant Schnauzers nor Bouviers that may have worked) within about a thousand mile. The experiment was not a success but puppy farmers cottoned on to marketing gimmick and the puppy buying public will do more research on buying a toaster than a puppy; Often becoming selectively deaf when told cons about a breed by a reputable breeder but believing the lies of the commercial breeder.

I work with several breed rescues. We rarely get dogs in from reputable breeders and this is for two reasons - one, they take back anything they breed and two, they screen the buyers better.

If people stopped buying the products of bad breeding the commercial breeders would move on to something else.
The KC could do more but is powerless against those who don't register. The councils that do have power would rather sit back & take the money from puppy farms.
 
To everyone else - what a minefield! We have had one litter and kept them. That said we imported the Dad, and the Mum is from 2 imports. In so many ways I'm glad she had a small litter as we kept them - but so many people want good working dogs. We would always take back any pup we bred no questions asked but then we'd never sell one to anyone that would be likely (excluding something totally unforseen) to ever have to do so. But then, we'd never be where we are with our dogs if other people hadn't sold pups to us. That said, we were obviously very genuine to these people and they were all (bar our first one) from very reputable people who all had waiting lists and kept at least one of the litter. Also, all bar our first have clauses that should we not be able to keep them they must go back to the breeder. This is how it should be.

I will add our £80 collie doesn't have any clauses. He is also the only dog we own with a health issue (heart murmer). Says a lot!! That said, he's very very fit and has a great temperament. He also runs in harness with the huskies!

I see people I class as friends talking about breeding and it dispairs me (other breeds). They are good people but clearly have no idea of what is a good dog. Maybe my standards are too high - but given we want good workers we very quickly discount dogs for breeding. We don't show (that's a whole other debate) but we very much look at dual purpose as well. I have successfully talked a few people out of breeding, and of owning Siberians :-) As for 'designer breeds', and there is no other way of describing these names, they are purely made up to make money. Calling it 'X crossed with X' doesn't sounds as attractive as a 'Westiepoo' (is that it?) to many people. It's all in the 'name'. Same goes for designer clothes.....they are probably made in the same factory as cheaper labels!!

I saw Husky / Lab crosses at £650 a while ago?? WTF?? WHY WOULD YOU?? DO PEOPLE KNOW NOTHING??
 
s4sugar said:
But those dogs were not bred for quick cash.

Poor breeding is poor breeding whether pure bred or not. ( & you have made the common mistake iof confusing breed & pedigree (a pure bred is always pedigree but a pedigree is not always pure bred)
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No, they were bred to fulfill a role. Unwanted pups were also culled to give the rest a better chance at survival. Sometimes the breeder would place the pups inside a circle of fire and let the bitch choose which ones to save..what is your point? I had an interesting link and wanted to explain where I found it.

And I'm not confused about pedigree, by the way:rolleyes:I was talking about controlling how many dogs were bred. Full stop.

A pure bred is not always pedigree: it is a dog whose parents are both known and both of pure breeding - such as a collie cross Labrador as compared to say a collie cross unknown mix. Thus you can have purebred doodles, oodles, (possibly even noodles by now) and lurchers, but not purebred Heinz 57s...

A pedigree is one where both parents are of traceable lineage and of the same breed of dog - such as a collie cross collie equals (duh) a pedigree collie.
 
Far as I know, two pedigrees crossed= crossbreed. Two crossbreeds crossed= mongrel.

I saw a staffie x husky this week. Beautiful ears, bright blue eyes, spectacle markings, staffie body. Odd mix. Made me stop and look.
 
I have been looking at the price and breeding of dogs for the past two or three weeks as looking for a companion. It is ridiculous, anything crossed with a chi is for sale at about £700+ and if it has a stupid name then it goes for even more. Pedigree labs, with full papers, health tested etc were going for about £300, make it a labradoodle and its about £550+. I will happily have a mongrel, I have no problem with them at all, but I cannot see how people can be stupid enough to believe the rubbish about the dog being a pedigree labradoodle. a pedigree jacchi, or cavachon. Its a mongrel, it is not more healthy, it could be the sum of both parts and have double the trouble. The the trouble is the BYB rely on peoples ignorance and stupidity, and there are plenty of ignorant, stupid people out there who will buy these designer names, to the detriment of the breed. Hopefully sometime soon the trend for designer names will stop and mongrels will become that again.
 
I will say this again, a KC registered breeder with a good stud dog will not cross it with any bitch, unregistered or registered unless its a very good example for the SAME breed.

People with stud dogs, why? What do they know about breeding, very little in my opinion. What breed lines are these dogs? What temperaments? Can you trace them back?

What about pregnancy putting one breed to another is very risky. But there again monkey see monkey do.

Would rather pay for a good example of a pedigree with lines I can research, an pay more than I have ever paid for a horse in my life. I.e I have never paid more than 1k for a horse, never had to.
 
Interesting points about a moratorium of breeding. I guess I sort of had a self imposed breeding ban for 12 years, I had found I was having to turn more people down who were not suitable for GSDs and although I had always found great homes for pups I decided to have a break.
It was only because I had a lot of people wanting a pup that I decided to mate Evie, and I have been pleasantly surprised by how clued up purchasers are about health tests(hip scores etc) temperament and the like. Whilst I have been out and about with Freya I have had no end of people coming up asking where I got her, and then asking when I am planning another litter! It seems that round here people want well bred, healthy pups but there are not many people breeding, yet there are many adverts in the paper for shepherd pups, often at higher prices than I charged and without hip scores etc. I have been asking round amongst decent breeders I know and none have litters planned, so it does seem that what is happening is that the responsible breeders are cutting back on their litters, and the BYBs are cashing in on it. Presumably they sell to the people who haven't done their research and may well in future decide it might be a nice idea to have pups and the problem is perpetuated.
So I have no real answers, education does seem to be the way to go but how do you get it across to people that a dog is not just a cash machine.:(

cinnamon toast - staff x husky, eek. I like both breeds but just what would you be looking to achieve by crossing them, oh I know super status dogs!:(
 
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Arizahn said:
A pure bred is not always pedigree: it is a dog whose parents are both known and both of pure breeding - such as a collie cross Labrador as compared to say a collie cross unknown mix. Thus you can have purebred doodles, oodles, (possibly even noodles by now) and lurchers, but not purebred Heinz 57s...

A pedigree is one where both parents are of traceable lineage and of the same breed of dog - such as a collie cross collie equals (duh) a pedigree collie.
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Actually you are completely wrong. A pedigree is a family tree with known animals of whatever breed so to be a purebred it is also pedigree (papers can get lost) .
A pure bred only has the same breed in it's pedigree. A cross of two or more breeds is never a pure breed so you cannot have purebred crosses. Lurchers are crosses but can, and should, have pedigrees.
Ignorance like the quote above is a blessing to the puppy farmers. PDE gave them a license to print money and no registrations means no paper trail or regulation. As MurphysMiner says, good breeders breed seldom & have cut back.
Too many dogs are being bred and too many of these are bred for monetary reasons.

A good example of pedigree animals that are not purebred are Holstein horses.
 
MurphysMinder said:
cinnamon toast - staff x husky, eek. I like both breeds but just what would you be looking to achieve by crossing them, oh I know super status dogs!:(
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She was pretty, as long as you didn't look at the body and head together! I asked if it was ok to let my two off as she was on lead, he said yes but I waited til he'd gone cos she had a major gash half healed that he said was her fault and another dog and a ball had been involved. Cue CT hiding the ball launcher and scuttling away! :D
 
well what an interesting thread.
first of all westiepoos have been around since the 1960s-they have not suddenly appeared on the dog breeding scene.by crossing a westie with poodle you can get dogs suitable for people with allergies.while there is a demand people will keep breeding them.
as for me been a back yard breeder-we all have to start somewhere.i do not breed my dogs at every season and have no intention of either.i have a friend who breeds litter after litter and then rehomes her bitches after they had 3 or 4 litters-that not right.
the dogs i breed are poodles westies and shith zus.these types of dog are in demand and sell as soon as dog is pregnant more or less.i do not breed staffies and wouldnt cos theres millions of them everywhere.
also all my dogs are given 100 per cent care with worming,vacs,defleaing.etc.they are all well fed and live together in a pack .i walk all five of them 4 times per day.they are all happy and well balanced dogs with no behavouir issues of any kind.
all my bitches receive proper tests proior to mating and have 100 per cent care whilst pregnant.so please to not condone people b4 you know what you on about.
my bitches infection has cleared up now and all is well and in few weeks i will know if she is pregnant or not.
 
Actually, I've just done a bit of reading up on the cross - and it does sound interesting, and quite well established. And I must apologise for calling it a mongrel.

Posts such as yours will always generate heated debate, because many 'purists' are against crosses of any types.

Plus the tone of your original post gives the impression of someone not experienced in breeding (although of course everyone has to start somewhere), so that will also raise questions and heated debate. I'm quite suprised to read your last post here where you do seem to have some experience....

Anyway, good luck with the litter, and it would be lovely to see some photo's when the pup's are born.
 
aintgotnohay said:
well what an interesting thread.
first of all westiepoos have been around since the 1960s-they have not suddenly appeared on the dog breeding scene.by crossing a westie with poodle you can get dogs suitable for people with allergies.while there is a demand people will keep breeding them.
as for me been a back yard breeder-we all have to start somewhere.i do not breed my dogs at every season and have no intention of either.i have a friend who breeds litter after litter and then rehomes her bitches after they had 3 or 4 litters-that not right.
the dogs i breed are poodles westies and shith zus.these types of dog are in demand and sell as soon as dog is pregnant more or less.i do not breed staffies and wouldnt cos theres millions of them everywhere.
also all my dogs are given 100 per cent care with worming,vacs,defleaing.etc.they are all well fed and live together in a pack .i walk all five of them 4 times per day.they are all happy and well balanced dogs with no behavouir issues of any kind.
all my bitches receive proper tests proior to mating and have 100 per cent care whilst pregnant.so please to not condone people b4 you know what you on about.
my bitches infection has cleared up now and all is well and in few weeks i will know if she is pregnant or not.
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Oh what baloney. there is NO way of knowing what sort of coat will be produced when cross breeding, so no way of knowing wether they will help allergy sufferers. :rolleyes:

NO not everyone HAS to start breeding somewhere- have em spayed keep em as pets. instead of seeing the pound signs before your eyes. :rolleyes:

What health checks did your dog/ the stud receive?
 
Hmm, if I had a friend who bred a bitch at every season they would no longer be a friend.
Okay you have more experience than it initially appeared from the questions you were asking, but I'm afraid the fact that you seem to be producing pups regularly just because there is a demand doesn't impress me. Why exactly do you breed, to improve your line and keep a puppy or because there is a ready market?
Re the westie x poodle cross, you MAY get a dog with a suitable coat for people with allergies but as has been said loads of times on here there is no guarantee.
 
lexiedhb said:
Oh what baloney. there is NO way of knowing what sort of coat will be produced when cross breeding, so no way of knowing wether they will help allergy sufferers. :rolleyes:

NO not everyone HAS to start breeding somewhere- have em spayed keep em as pets. instead of seeing the pound signs before your eyes. :rolleyes:

What health checks did your dog/ the stud receive?
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Exactly this. First of all dogs carry dust mites in their coats. End of. If you are allergic to dust mites you might get a nasty reaction when dogs are around. in fact curly coated dogs carry more dust mites. Secondly all dogs shed. Westies had a couple of them, they all shed. Thirdly if you want a dog that doesnt shed AS MUCH why not get a pedigree why does it have to be a cross.
 
lexiedhb said:
Oh what baloney. there is NO way of knowing what sort of coat will be produced when cross breeding, so no way of knowing wether they will help allergy sufferers. :rolleyes:

NO not everyone HAS to start breeding somewhere- have em spayed keep em as pets. instead of seeing the pound signs before your eyes. :rolleyes:

What health checks did your dog/ the stud receive?
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This. One imagines the pedigrees are kc registered so we can all see their hip scores etc on the kc website? Unless they've had the specifically recommended tests for the breed, other tests are worthless.

Coat is unknown til the pup is a a bit older, it is a total NONSENSE to say that a poodle cross will not shed. Crap, dare I even say!
 
Nice line at the top of the Mini Poodle breed club website:
"The Club does NOT support the inter breeding of Poodles with other breeds nor the breeding of Parti-Colour Poodles for exhibition."

Mini poodle health tests alone include:
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA testing/eye clearance
Hip Dysplasia x-rays
Patellar Luxation evaluation
They can also suffer epilepsy, VW disease, thyroid problems.

Shih Tzu and Westie health tests I am not so sure about but I trust your Westie has no skin issues as they should definitely not be bred from.

"worming,vacs,defleaing" is something ALL house/family dogs should have done anyway, it is not just a 'health' thing, it's a housekeeping thing.

And agree, saying that all dogs of a certain cross don't moult is a fallacy.
 
I might be being naive but why can't this country be like Australia and by law require dogs are neutered unless you've registered your dog as a breeding dog? My aunts dogs had to have special tags on to say they've been done - I suppose like license tags.
 
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