Woman killed, seven dogs seized

This is not about this case but is a general point for anyone shocked at the idea of a pet dog becoming involved in such a tragic incident. In a high state of arousal, dogs will revert to nature. I've been bitten a number of times by otherwise very pleasant dogs because I stuck my hand in, when they were in the red zone. Not just my own.



It doesn't mean they were bad dogs, it just means they were using their mouths to vent and I presented something to take it out on.



We all need to keep ourselves and others safe and we can do this by not overdogging ourselves (sometimes it's little Scrappy Doo who starts but doesn't finish...but you still need to be able to get him out of the way) and by reading body language (See Sophie thread).



It doesn't mean every single dog has to be involved, but in a large group, like in a bar brawl when the tension is high, there will be all types of interactions, from the 'hold me back' types who talk a good game then run when it really kicks off, to the normally calm football fan who just won't stop when the red mist descends, to the weekend warriors who will throw a few fly digs and jump back again.

You know yourselves that people can change when there's a crowd and the atmosphere is heavy and people are egged on by their mates.
 
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The DT update is similar to the Times. There is another witness statement saying that the dogs were on leads which were tangled round the victim's legs so she couldn't get up and the non attacking dogs couldn't get away.

As an aside, tears ago when I was a student nurse, a woman in her 60's was brought in to theatre after being attacked by 2 GSD. They weren't hers but she knew them well, used to dog sit regularly. These were family dogs, I think there were children in the household and afaik had never given cause for concern. Her injuries were horrific but mainly to fleshy areas, thighs, upper arms so she survived but would go on to need extensive plastic surgery. We heard at the time it was after throwing sticks on a walk and something triggered them to attack. Both were pts.
 
https://news.sky.com/story/woman-ma...turn-back-to-passers-by-witness-says-12786231


An eyewitness told Sky News she was riding on horseback with her friend when they saw the woman who was killed on the floor "being attacked by multiple dogs".

Sue Dove said: "She screamed at us to turn back and with that, two of the loose dogs ran towards us and the horses... my horse spun round and bolted and I eventually fell."

The witness said she had been left feeling "lots of different emotions".

She added: "(I feel) sadness that a woman has lost her life, but frustrated people are able to walk so many dogs.

"This lady was clearly out of control for whatever reason, had fallen to the ground, being attacked.

"Because of those consequences and two of the dogs running towards us, my horse bolted and I fell from my horse, landing on my right side, on my ribs and hip.
 
Sorry, just to add, I've been on the go all day, the reason they start fighting or attacking each other and then turn on people...the main reason is that we tend to put ourselves in the way of what they want (a prey object or animal) we are both crunchy and also soft and fleshy, we don't tend to fight/bite back so hard, we emit stress/distress signals and hormones and high pitched prey noises.
It's all very base, dogs in that frame of mind are not thinking of 'love' or 'care', they are thinking of themselves, either self preservation, self defence, self reward (relief from stress or fulfilment of drive through their mouths/the bite).
Add a pack when everyone is in competition and jockeying for position over the item.
 
Tiddlypom said:
I can see how a melee can be started by just one over or mis reaction which escalates.

I can't begin to imagine how anyone can decide with confidence which of this group of dogs should face the chop, and which (or indeed any) should be reprieved. It's a nightmare.
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This completely. I imagine they will recreate the bites to see which dogs did bite but they probably all could have done, in terror and panic.
 
What a horrific story, that poor, poor woman. It must have been a terrifying and extremely painful way to die. I feel awful for her.

I hope this prompts a review into dog walking licenses to avoid a situation like this happening again. Our lovely pet dogs are ultimately pack animals and predators - while horrifying, it doesn't surprise me that in a high state of arousal they acted as they did. I think it's why I always feel a bit unnerved when you see people who own very high numbers of dogs themselves. This has strengthened my resolve to never have more than 2 or perhaps 3 in the right breeds/circumstances.
 
The more I’ve read of this the more horrific the whole incident seems. An absolutely awful incident with so many repercussions for those involved.

I do hope as others have said that there will be a review of how be a many dogs can be walked by an individual in public areas regardless of if they are yours or you are a professional dog walker.
 
Apercrumbie said:
I hope this prompts a review into dog walking licenses to avoid a situation like this happening again. Our lovely pet dogs are ultimately pack animals and predators - while horrifying, it doesn't surprise me that in a high state of arousal they acted as they did. I think it's why I always feel a bit unnerved when you see people who own very high numbers of dogs themselves. This has strengthened my resolve to never have more than 2 or perhaps 3 in the right breeds/circumstances.
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According to the article about the incident in The Times today the area where the attack happens already has rules imposed by the local council on commercial dog walkers: only a maximum of six dogs can be walked by one dog walker at one time, the walker must be licensed and insured, 'registered with a recognised body', and pay £156.60/year to use the land for dog walking.

Locals (including someone from the local stables) reported that there are often problems with out of control dogs in that area, particularly with them chasing and attacking horses. It isn't clear whether the Council's rules aren't enforced, whether they aren't strict enough, or whether a lot of the other incidents have been single dogs/dogs being walked by their owners (not by a commercial dog walker).
 
SilverLinings said:
According to the article about the incident in The Times today the area where the attack happens already has rules imposed by the local council on commercial dog walkers: only a maximum of six dogs can be walked by one dog walker at one time, the walker must be licensed and insured, 'registered with a recognised body', and pay £156.60/year to use the land for dog walking.

Locals (including someone from the local stables) reported that there are often problems with out of control dogs in that area, particularly with them chasing and attacking horses. It isn't clear whether the Council's rules aren't enforced, whether they aren't strict enough, or whether a lot of the other incidents have been single dogs/dogs being walked by their owners (not by a commercial dog walker).
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There is no such thing as a licence for dog walking. That council would have put in a byelaw and it would be elected members that decided on a fee for using the land. It is certainly a start but prosecuting would be tricky.

Very sadly there has been a perfect storm brewing following the massive increase in dog ownership through the covid period. 3.2 million dogs were registered with vets in 2020/21, no one knows how many dogs in total were acquired. Demand has now dropped off markedly and the breeders are finding themselves with unsold puppies, especially the medium/bigger breeds.

The cute puppies are now adults and ripping up homes because their owners have gone back to work and left them alone. Home boarding, dog day care and dog walking businesses have boomed. But as 2022 came to a close a further problem came in the form of the economic crisis.

The dog shelters are full in my area to the point we are sending dogs to shelters a considerable distance away. Our dog wardens are flat out with work. In covid they barely had a dog to deal with.

Dog walking certainly needs legislation, but the public also need guidance and educating about employing the services of a dog walker and that is almost impossible because money drives most decisions. A regulated dog walker will have to charge far more than the chap down the lane that will take your dog out for a fiver. Some of the things that have landed in my in tray would amaze you. Sign written vans full of hot dogs, dog walkers collecting dogs but not walking them, dog walkers not even collecting dogs as proven by cctv footage, dogs being tied to vans and made to run behind the moving vehicle, dogs stolen from vans, dog flung through a windscreen as it was not secured in the vehicle, lost dogs (many of), dogs taken to the dog walkers home and left there all day alone, dog walkers flinging a group of dogs onto arable land and letting them run riot fouling crops and of course, the loose dog attacking an innocent dog.

There is another aspect to the use of dog walkers that puzzles me, house keys are given to strangers to allow the dogs to be picked up and put back. Of course many walkers are honest but there will be plenty that are not.

Will this tragic recent incident trigger the authorities to look at dog walkers ? sadly I doubt it.
 
There's a fenced field in my area that dog walkers fetch dogs to and let them loose in. Sometimes there are 4 vans there at once.
I'm glad the field seems well fenced although a dog escaped from a van a while ago and wasn't found for days.
 
AdorableAlice said:
There is no such thing as a licence for dog walking. That council would have put in a byelaw and it would be elected members that decided on a fee for using the land. It is certainly a start but prosecuting would be tricky.

Very sadly there has been a perfect storm brewing following the massive increase in dog ownership through the covid period. 3.2 million dogs were registered with vets in 2020/21, no one knows how many dogs in total were acquired. Demand has now dropped off markedly and the breeders are finding themselves with unsold puppies, especially the medium/bigger breeds.

The cute puppies are now adults and ripping up homes because their owners have gone back to work and left them alone. Home boarding, dog day care and dog walking businesses have boomed. But as 2022 came to a close a further problem came in the form of the economic crisis.

The dog shelters are full in my area to the point we are sending dogs to shelters a considerable distance away. Our dog wardens are flat out with work. In covid they barely had a dog to deal with.

Dog walking certainly needs legislation, but the public also need guidance and educating about employing the services of a dog walker and that is almost impossible because money drives most decisions. A regulated dog walker will have to charge far more than the chap down the lane that will take your dog out for a fiver. Some of the things that have landed in my in tray would amaze you. Sign written vans full of hot dogs, dog walkers collecting dogs but not walking them, dog walkers not even collecting dogs as proven by cctv footage, dogs being tied to vans and made to run behind the moving vehicle, dogs stolen from vans, dog flung through a windscreen as it was not secured in the vehicle, lost dogs (many of), dogs taken to the dog walkers home and left there all day alone, dog walkers flinging a group of dogs onto arable land and letting them run riot fouling crops and of course, the loose dog attacking an innocent dog.

There is another aspect to the use of dog walkers that puzzles me, house keys are given to strangers to allow the dogs to be picked up and put back. Of course many walkers are honest but there will be plenty that are not.

Will this tragic recent incident trigger the authorities to look at dog walkers ? sadly I doubt it.
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At least your council still has a dog warden!
 
AdorableAlice said:
3 of them covering 6 councils and one thousand square miles.
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This is the problem, even if there are more rules/legislation put into place it won't have teeth unless there's people able to monitor and enforce.

Interestingly (and amazingly because the police and council seem to have forsaken the part of town I live in) fines were being given out in one of our local green spaces which is clearly signposted dogs to be on lead only. People in local FB group whinging that it's not fair despite it being a 5 minute walk on to another huge green space which does permit off-lead. I really hope we don't lose access to this space because Ivy is still mostly on lead/long-line and in theory it should be a safe place to walk without the hassle of off-lead dogs. Also noticed that our ex-dog walker posted photos on her business page in there of walking a dog off-lead :rolleyes:

I would very happily have paid more for a walker with actual training and knowledge of dog behaviour, and who did solo or pair walks. It just doesn't exist because the demand is high and many people don't demand anything more than 'I love dogs' as the qualification for their dog walker.

The more that comes out about this story the worse it gets. Just horrifying in so many ways.
 
AdorableAlice said:
There is no such thing as a licence for dog walking. That council would have put in a byelaw and it would be elected members that decided on a fee for using the land. It is certainly a start but prosecuting would be tricky.
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I did realise that the 'licence' referred to was something instigated by that council (e.g. the bit of paper handed out when the walker pays to use the land) rather than a formal/national 'licence'; I was stating what was reported in the newspaper just as an example that even when a local attempt had been made to control commercial dog walking it had failed/been ignored as the woman who was sadly killed has been reported to have been walking eight dogs at the time (with the council saying in their rules that the limit allowed in that area is six). Although I would hope that a national scheme would be more robust; for a start no one could claim that they 'didn't know' that they needed a licence/to follow certain rules at a particular location.

As is being discussed on the other thread, most people seem to think that commercial dog walkers need to be licensed and operate under certain rules, and (as you say) the pandemic puppy boom has resulted in a huge rise in irresponsible owners and cowboy dog walkers. It amazes me the sort of walkers some owners are happy to hand their dogs over to, or maybe some of them do zero research beforehand? There are obviously some good, professional and dog-friendly walkers, but there seems to also be a lot just in it for the money, so the bigger the group of dogs they can take out at any one time the better as it equals more £££.

I expect whether or not this incident results in any change will be largely influenced by whether or not an accurate idea of what exactly happened can be determined. It sounds like an horrific incident for the victim and the three(?) witnesses.
 
Tiddlypom said:
https://news.sky.com/story/woman-ma...turn-back-to-passers-by-witness-says-12786231


An eyewitness told Sky News she was riding on horseback with her friend when they saw the woman who was killed on the floor "being attacked by multiple dogs".

Sue Dove said: "She screamed at us to turn back and with that, two of the loose dogs ran towards us and the horses... my horse spun round and bolted and I eventually fell."

The witness said she had been left feeling "lots of different emotions".

She added: "(I feel) sadness that a woman has lost her life, but frustrated people are able to walk so many dogs.

"This lady was clearly out of control for whatever reason, had fallen to the ground, being attacked.

"Because of those consequences and two of the dogs running towards us, my horse bolted and I fell from my horse, landing on my right side, on my ribs and hip.
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Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but with how I take it this woman isn't doing horse riders any favours. The dogwalker was on the floor being attacked and still screamed at the riders to turn back - in a situation like that I'd have been more likely to scream help me, but no she was concerned for them. And the rider's main concern seems to be she fell from her horse, not even any mention of breaks or serious injury. Mind boggling, and very selfish imo.
 
Nari said:
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but with how I take it this woman isn't doing horse riders any favours. The dogwalker was on the floor being attacked and still screamed at the riders to turn back - in a situation like that I'd have been more likely to scream help me, but no she was concerned for them. And the rider's main concern seems to be she fell from her horse, not even any mention of breaks or serious injury. Mind boggling, and very selfish imo.
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Yes, you're reading it wrong. A news channel asked her what happened to her and she told them what happened to her and they have edited her reply to crop most of what she probably said, to summarise what happened to her.
.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
This is the problem, even if there are more rules/legislation put into place it won't have teeth unless there's people able to monitor and enforce.

Interestingly (and amazingly because the police and council seem to have forsaken the part of town I live in) fines were being given out in one of our local green spaces which is clearly signposted dogs to be on lead only. People in local FB group whinging that it's not fair despite it being a 5 minute walk on to another huge green space which does permit off-lead. I really hope we don't lose access to this space because Ivy is still mostly on lead/long-line and in theory it should be a safe place to walk without the hassle of off-lead dogs. Also noticed that our ex-dog walker posted photos on her business page in there of walking a dog off-lead :rolleyes:

.
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Exactly the same has happened in my local area, we are allowed to use the local cemetery for dog walking as long as on a lead, there is a huge park five minutes further on where you can let your dog off. When the dog warden recently gave out fines to those who had dogs off lead in the cemetery, the local people were up in arms about it. We are very lucky to have this space and could well lose it in the future if people dont follow the rules.
 
This is terribly sad, that poor woman.

I have written on other threads that I have a fear of off lead dogs, since having a couple of near misses where dogs tried to attack me and the owners were not present. A dog locally had to have its eye removed after being attacked by another off lead dog. I have seen a couple of out of hand situations in our local park, one of which was a dog walker leading three dogs, an off lead dog approached them and her dogs went mental.

The man with the off lead dog was miles away and didn't seem worried, whilst the lady had panic in her voice and was asking him to call his dog off. I remember the feeling of my chest tightening, watching the loose dog circle her and wondering why the man thought it was okay for his dog to behave like that. These were all small terrier types too - I can only imagine how much worse it could of been if the dogs were larger breeds.
 
You have to also feel bad for the dog owners. Guessing that they were mostly much loved pets, the owners must now be grieving at the thought of (a) the horror of what their dog may have done, and (b) that whether it did or did not take part in the attack, they are unlikely to ever see their dog again.
 
Petalpoos said:
You have to also feel bad for the dog owners. Guessing that they were mostly much loved pets, the owners must now be grieving at the thought of (a) the horror of what their dog may have done, and (b) that whether it did or did not take part in the attack, they are unlikely to ever see their dog again.
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Well I'm hoping, as there were witnesses, that the truth of what happened will be found out and only the dog (s) that were guilty of starting the aggression get pts. I hardly think a sausage dog would be a man killer however aggressive it was.
 
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stormox said:
Well I'm hoping, as there were witnesses, that the truth of what happened will be found out and only the dog (s) that were guilty of starting the aggression get pts. I hardly think a sausage dog would be a man killer however aggressive it was.
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I agree but any dog could kill if they bite in wrong place. It could be more than one dog that bit and the poor lady died from blood loss. It will be a big mess to sort out.
 
stormox said:
Well I'm hoping, as there were witnesses, that the truth of what happened will be found out and only the dog (s) that were guilty of starting the aggression get pts. I hardly think a sausage dog would be a man killer however aggressive it was.
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Whilst it might well be possible with an eye witness account to identify which dog started it if it was distinctive, eg the huge dog, it could be nigh on impossible to be sure just which other dogs joined in attacking the prostrate dog walker and those which didn't join in or which just scrapped with each other but couldn't get away if as (if as reported) their leads were all tangled up.

Also, any eye witness is going to be profoundly shocked and traumatised themselves, so their recollection of the exact sequence of events could understandably be very muddled.
 
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