Working Livery Considerations

[SaddlePsych'D]

I know this forum illustrates the many and varied ways owning horses can get tricky (as well as the joy it brings) but even so, the dream of having my own isn't shifting! Once things are a bit more settled in terms of personal circumstances, I'd really like to look into it more seriously.

One thing I'd like to enquire about is Working Livery, very specifically at a yard I have lessons and volunteer at. I haven't had a chance to speak to YM yet and wondered what additional questions to ask as I don't want to get too attached to the idea without considering possible drawbacks.

Pros I can think of are:
- Potentially cheaper compared to equivalent part-livery, almost certainly cheaper compared to full-livery (with exercise) and DIY is not going to be realistic for me in terms of work.
- Indoor and outdoor school plus lots of off-road hacking on and next to site, monthly on-site unaff. dressage and jumping competitions, occasional on-site clinics
- Turnout - will need to check winter arrangement but appears spacious and in small groups
- Exercise and daily care covered
- Very likely high crossover between type of horse I am looking for as a first horse and one which would meet the yard needs
- I already know (and like!) the yard culture

Things to check out I can think of are:
- Number of sessions per day/week the horse would be used, including balance between arena-based and hacking work, and intensity of sessions (how much walk/trot/canter/jump)
- Access to arena facilities before/after my work hours (especially in dark winter months)
- Flexibility to book out days where horse is not used for work (i.e., down the line if I were able to go out to events off-site)

Would appreciate others' experiences/suggestions of things to check out before I let myself get carried away with this idea!

 

[teapot]

Having been on the other side of managing it, things to consider:

- Workload (workload, workload... ie what they say the horse will do, and what the actual reality is)
- Who's riding the horse (would the horse be an in assessment lesson for example, would it do kids' activities or solely nice ladies etc)
- Allowed to be used in staff training (if there is any)
- When the horse is being used - for example will you specifically be able to ride after work and not worry the horse is in a lesson if you turned up half an hour earlier etc
- What tack will be used - yours, or do you have a spare second set for clients
- Who pays for what (damage to tack, injury to horse in a lesson...)
- Change in livery costs if horse was to be off work long term
- Grazing/herds - out with school horse, other liveries, individual turnout
- Which farrier/vet you can use, or do you use the yard's
- Who oversees worming/jabs/clipping etc - you or the yard
- Feeding, any extras you may want - how you ensure those are fed
- Rugging, your choice or the yards etc etc
- How to book your horse out, any limits, can you go off site, biosecurity coming back onto yard from comps
- What happens if horse becomes unsuitable for vast majority of clients (can and does happen)
- What the care actually is on a daily basis
- Any extra costs etc
- Are you allowed on site before staff, trusted to lock up etc
- Is there regular comms between yard and owner over how the horse is doing

PM me if you want to discuss further because I worked in an environment where the yard got way more benefit than the owners ever did, and I know how things can be spun to make it seem far more rosy that it may appear PS - I am very pro working livery in the right set up but it's something you must look at with a fine tooth comb. Sadly client experience can be very different to what an owner may experience on the same yard, and I've seen that in a couple pf places.

 

[Kunoichi73]

As you know, I don't have my own horse but I have ridden working liveries at my RS. Things that would worry me would be:

How being ridden by multiple riders of different abilities would impact the horse. Would it switch off, get stressed, even aggressive. Would you end up with a RS plod, rather than a nice responsive horse.

How would being looked after by lots of different people (inc. kids) affect it? I've seen one that was quite stressy and got to the stage of having to have the helpers banned from his stable as he really couldn't cope with all the attention.

Can you specify the level/experience of rider they will allow to be taught on your horse?

Who is responsible for injury treatment, if it happens on a lesson.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Would you get to ride your horse at the weekend when the RS is likely to be most busy?
Is it possible to 'tailor make' a WL package that meets both your needs an d those of the RS e.g. horse only used by RS on weekdays (if that would suit you)?

 

[nagblagger]

I am too selfish to let just 'anyone' ride my horse. I couldn't cope in case they 'ruined it' either mentally or physically. But i can see how it would work for some, just not me.

 

[teapot]

I am too selfish to let just 'anyone' ride my horse. I couldn't cope in case they 'ruined it' either mentally or physically. But i can see how it would work for some, just not me.

To be honest - the rider should never be blamed, they after all don't choose that horse to ride (unless requested). It's yards mismanaging their clients and horse allocations, but you need to be somewhere big enough that doesn't need to use or 'abuse' the goodwill nature of some horses to avoid it happening.

 

[JBM]

Too many idiotic or aggressive riders for me to let any of my horses be used in lessons unsupervised.
I would watch a few lessons and see how the instructor teaches. A lot of instructors would be more whip happy than I am
Obviously they’re are good ones

 

[nagblagger]

To be honest - the rider should never be blamed, they after all don't choose that horse to ride (unless requested). It's yards mismanaging their clients and horse allocations, but you need to be somewhere big enough that doesn't need to use or 'abuse' the goodwill nature of some horses to avoid it happening.

I am not 'blaming' the rider, just the situation they might find themselves in on my horse. Like I said, just not for me.

 

[Red-1]

If this is the yard with the schoolmaster horses, then I may consider it.

If it is the yard where the dressage is held, then I would not.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I am too selfish to let just 'anyone' ride my horse. I couldn't cope in case they 'ruined it' either mentally or physically. But i can see how it would work for some, just not me.

I echo this…

It would just break BBs personality if we no longer had our one to one. I dont think he would cope well at all plus no
One else rides him anyway. I can just imagine someone getting on him and kicking him on… he would probably bronc

If there is an option to not use your horse often… I would go with that

A lot of valid points made by people above…

 

[Trouper]

One further point to consider to @teapot 's excellent list - boredom. A friends horse became, first bored, then difficult to ride with constant arena work. Taken out of the livery setting and regularly hacked he became a different animal.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Thank you for all the replies - lots of food for thought. I have a very different perspective on other people riding my hypothetical horse because for so long I have been the 'anyone' riding someone else's horse and some of my absolute favourites have been ones who either were current or past (since bought by RS) working liveries.

I've ridden at many RSs over the years, been in many group lessons, under many instructors and while it's definitely not all good practice at all of these places, I have certainly seen far more 'aggressive and idiotic' riding behaviour from people out and about at competitions (who probably ought to know better) than I ever have in an RS.

Having been on the other side of managing it, things to consider:

- Workload (workload, workload... ie what they say the horse will do, and what the actual reality is)
- Who's riding the horse (would the horse be an in assessment lesson for example, would it do kids' activities or solely nice ladies etc)
- Allowed to be used in staff training (if there is any)
- When the horse is being used - for example will you specifically be able to ride after work and not worry the horse is in a lesson if you turned up half an hour earlier etc
- What tack will be used - yours, or do you have a spare second set for clients
- Who pays for what (damage to tack, injury to horse in a lesson...)
- Change in livery costs if horse was to be off work long term
- Grazing/herds - out with school horse, other liveries, individual turnout
- Which farrier/vet you can use, or do you use the yard's
- Who oversees worming/jabs/clipping etc - you or the yard
- Feeding, any extras you may want - how you ensure those are fed
- Rugging, your choice or the yards etc etc
- How to book your horse out, any limits, can you go off site, biosecurity coming back onto yard from comps
- What happens if horse becomes unsuitable for vast majority of clients (can and does happen)
- What the care actually is on a daily basis
- Any extra costs etc
- Are you allowed on site before staff, trusted to lock up etc
- Is there regular comms between yard and owner over how the horse is doing

PM me if you want to discuss further because I worked in an environment where the yard got way more benefit than the owners ever did, and I know how things can be spun to make it seem far more rosy that it may appear PS - I am very pro working livery in the right set up but it's something you must look at with a fine tooth comb. Sadly client experience can be very different to what an owner may experience on the same yard, and I've seen that in a couple pf places.

Thank you I will PM you.

If this is the yard with the schoolmaster horses, then I may consider it.

If it is the yard where the dressage is held, then I would not.

Schoolmaster yard is too far away unfortunately.

One further point to consider to @teapot 's excellent list - boredom. A friends horse became, first bored, then difficult to ride with constant arena work. Taken out of the livery setting and regularly hacked he became a different animal.

I would definitely want to check out the volume and balance of work. They do offer hacks and some of the lessons actually are split between arena work and then a short ride out because the hacking is on-site.

 

[Bobthecob15]

In these situations the riding centre always gets more benefit than the owner, and it's often not a lot cheaper when we have considered the idea for us.

I'm sure others have mentioned this but consider the fact that it will take a certain type of horse to be able to cope with different riders very frequently...which may make your search very difficult.

 

[Andrew657]

I bought my first horse from an (untypical) riding school - and he was certainly not a typical riding school horse or ideal first horse (nervous ex-racehorse). I had been riding him for several years prior to purchase. I then continued to keep him there on working livery.

Although it worked well for me - I needed the support from them - and was trusted to be on site when staff weren't. I also got first choice of when I wanted to ride - this was less of an issue as they had a limited number of clients who they were able to put on him.

The things I would say is make sure you can afford to keep horse - if it doesn't work out - for me I had to find a new home when the riding school closed and then had sole responsibility for full livery.

With hindsight and having seen how much more confident he came when I was the only rider. I think I probably underestimated the stress of being in riding school situation. Some would just be him getting older.

One other question I would ask is who can you hack out with - is there other livery owners or are the only others going out riding school hacks

Would I buy a horse with the expectation of keeping them on working livery - no - because I think there are too many unknowns - and probably tensions between what the school want and what I would want.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Lots of good advice above. Also , do you know how rigorously they enforce weight limits for their horses from day to day? I know of a RS that has written limits for each horse but are very lax about enforcing them if it would mean turning down business.

I think it would make you fairly powerless to negotiate if something comes up that you don't like & they know you can't afford to keep him another way.

 

[Red-1]

Schoolmaster yard is too far away unfortunately.

In which case, no, I would not.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

It has worked extremely well for many first owners at my old yard which was a riding school attached to a livery yard. Most of us learned to ride at riding schools and those mounts at well run riding schools are not confused, stressed, broken wrecks! But are healthy, happy, adaptable animals. So much of the stress of ownership is taken away with working livery. The only caveat is it’s best to buy a horse already at a school (lesson favourites were often sold to riding school customers) and it can be hard for the horse to adapt to a much lower workload and with less routine if you taken them away after a few years.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

In these situations the riding centre always gets more benefit than the owner, and it's often not a lot cheaper when we have considered the idea for us.

I'm sure others have mentioned this but consider the fact that it will take a certain type of horse to be able to cope with different riders very frequently...which may make your search very difficult.

I'm hoping there would be quite high crossover with what I would be looking for anyway - a calm/forgiving type! I am fairly able as a rider but do get nervous so temperament is right at the top of my list.

 

[J&S]

OP, sound out the RDA centre you volunteer at, there may be a one who is coming up for a change in career and would be well suited for a more active life as in , more hacking than school work, but also under consistent management.

 

[m1stify]

you may not mind others riding your 'hypothetical' horse but when you have searched months for one, handed over thousands (or perhaps 10+ thousand to get the temperament for you and others in an RS setting one that can progress with you and be ok for a RS rider will probably be expensive), paid for vetting, more thousands for your tack, which others will have access to, you might think differently.

 

[Bobthecob15]

you may not mind others riding your 'hypothetical' horse but when you have searched months for one, handed over thousands (or perhaps 10+ thousand to get the temperament for you and others in an RS setting one that can progress with you and be ok for a RS rider will probably be expensive), paid for vetting, more thousands for your tack, which others will have access to, you might think differently.

100% agree with this!!! Plus you'll have to pay to insure it...

 

[Muddy unicorn]

We looked into working livery a few years back but decided against it for several of the reasons that other posters have raised. However the main one was that it wasn’t much cheaper than standard livery and the riding school were insisting on so many restrictions that my daughter would barely have been able to ride. She ended up starting out with a share horse two days a week (not at the riding school) which gave her her first experience of what it would be like to own a horse. I know your last share wasn’t perfect but would another share be a better option for now?

 

[Parrotperson]

I wouldn’t go bear this with a barge pole. Known several yards who did this and several people who said gamed up as it were with their horses.

They were all over worked never hacked just did school lessons were ridden by complete novices even when the horse wasn’t suitable and because they’d signed up there was little they could do until they gave (lots I forget how much) notice.

Beware with a big fat B

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think the anti-RS sentiment in this thread is over stated. Or did you all learn to ride on over worked, deadened and inappropriate horses?

 

[m1stify]

I think the anti-RS sentiment in this thread is over stated. Or did you all learn to ride on over worked, deadened and inappropriate horses?

nothing against RS at all, just 'working livery' would not be a consideration for me. I don't see how it would work to benefit the owner rather than the RS. The RS can provide their own horses, surely?

 

[teapot]

I think the anti-RS sentiment in this thread is over stated. Or did you all learn to ride on over worked, deadened and inappropriate horses?

I’ve seen both sides for sure (and one of the reasons I left the industry). That said, the last horse I rode was a working livery, a first purchase for the owner, and was quite possibly the most expensive (both cost and quality wise) horse I’ve ever sat on!

nothing against RS at all, just 'working livery' would not be a consideration for me. I don't see how it would work to benefit the owner rather than the RS. The RS can provide their own horses, surely?

Do you know how hard it is to get school horses, especially more advanced ones?

My example above is one way it can work - first time owner had bought a decent schoolmaster to learn on, and the working livery agreement meant the horse was being ridden, schooled and kept sweet by more experienced riders.

 

[sarcasm_queen]

I’ve had several on working livery. think it very much depends on the horse, and the establishment. Feel free to PM me if you want a more in depth POV

 

[SEL]

If you know the yard then ask the other WL owners what they think about the set up. I was on DIY livery at a RS which had quite a few working liveries. One of the ponies got very naughty in the school and the RS school told the owners it wasn't working which caused carnage because they couldn't afford livery. Another wanted her horse for a sponsored ride but the RS needed him for lessons. Most of the rest ticked along ok though & it wasn't even the best RS.

 

[Cowpony]

My first horse was on working livery, and it's a good way for a novice owner to learn whilst having the safety net of the yard staff. I learned a lot! But then you get to the point where you know enough to look after a horse on your own, realise that you can make it work alongside a full time job, and don't like the fact that you teach your horse something which is then erased by other people riding a different way. So it depends where on your horsey journey you are.

Inevitably on a busy yard things go wrong - your horse gets turned out by mistake when you wanted to ride, or you get there to find it's already being used in a lesson. It happens on the best run yards just because there are lots of people involved and horses need to be sorted out quickly. But you have to do very little yourself, which is great when you work and have a long commute, or work erratic hours.

So it just depends what you are prepared to put up with at the point you are re knowledge, time and money.

 

[Skib]

I stopped having lessons at one RS because I was obliged to ride a horse on working livery. It was partly envy, that this horse's owner was allowed to keep a horse at that yard and on working livery and I was not. But also I felt the working livery horse which was given me in my lessons was too wide for me.
I tend to run away from awkward situations but in this case it ended well because I found my current safe and much loved share at a different yard. People told me she was the same height and shape as the working livery I had rejected. But what is on paper does not always convey the variation in numnah, saddle type and size, stirrup bars and so forth. One can tack up a horse, get on and know it is right for one. Mount another and know it wont do.