Working Livery Considerations

[Ample Prosecco]

nothing against RS at all, just 'working livery' would not be a consideration for me. I don't see how it would work to benefit the owner rather than the RS. The RS can provide their own horses, surely?

I’m sure some yards can take advantage but the best arrangements are mutually beneficial. Inexperienced owners have a safety net, significantly reduced workload and reduced livery fees, while riding schools get use of a nice horse or pony. It works best I think when you buy one of the horses already in the riding school.

 

[dottylottie]

you may not mind others riding your 'hypothetical' horse but when you have searched months for one, handed over thousands (or perhaps 10+ thousand to get the temperament for you and others in an RS setting one that can progress with you and be ok for a RS rider will probably be expensive), paid for vetting, more thousands for your tack, which others will have access to, you might think differently.

before i bought mine, i debated the idea of having hypothetical horse with me on working livery if/when i go back to do my masters - now that i’ve got them both, not a chance! besides the fact i simply don’t want anyone other than myself riding them, i don’t want them stuck in a school all day every day.

 

[JGC]

We have a tiny yard and YO has three horses and ponies she uses for lessons.

One livery has just had to sell her horse, so the family of one of the girls who has lessons bought him. The girl has been riding for three or four years - the family are totally novice so they have a working livery arrangement - they have every Sunday available, not Saturday unless everyone is at a comp, but the horse is only used for three hours of lessons a week and sometimes they're hacked anyway. It's working very well at the moment, although I suspect as they gain experience they won't necessarily want to leave him on the working livery.

 

[Peglo]

I think the anti-RS sentiment in this thread is over stated. Or did you all learn to ride on over worked, deadened and inappropriate horses?

I agree. I got my first pony from a trekking centre (not a riding school) but she had a great owner who understood her horses so well. My pony wasn’t ever schooled as she hated it. Another would not be jumped as he didn’t want to. (They would do fun days when they might do schooling or jumping)
My pony was an amazing, confident pony who didn’t change at all from trekking pony to private home. And I got to ride there before I got my first pony and learned so much.

On the other hand I’ve had my horses at home for 19 years and personally could not have mine at a riding school now as I’d be too jealous and probably controlling to let others have more say over my horses. But I think it’s quite admirable if you’d be willing to share your horse.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

If this is the yard with the schoolmaster horses, then I may consider it.

If it is the yard where the dressage is held, then I would not.

Was going to say exactly this I wouldn't even consider it at that riding school sorry.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

My friend bought a very expensive dressage horse and she keeps her on working livery at a college, the arrangement works well for her they only use her 2 or 3 times a week for lessons and only the students in there last year ride her as she is quite forward and sensitive, they use her alot for teaching students how to bandage and general stuff as she is great to handle on the ground.

They do really look after them well and it suits my friend as she can only ride 3 4 times a week and has no time for the general looking after.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It CAN possibly work, and it did for me at two well run and managed riding schools on the Wirral. Initially they used him for 10 hours/5 days a week, leaving me an hour a day plus a whole day. Horses to work a max of 3 hours a day, with one compulsory day off a week (Monday). I soon stumped up more livery money and they had him for 5 hours a week.

As soon as I could afford it, I took him off WL and into diy. The same horse then progressed to medium level affiliated dressage and into an awesome RC all rounder, including teams and RC nationals.

This only worked because of the standard of care and horsemanship at those riding schools. WL is a disaster in a lesser establishment. Never consider WL at one of the numerous equestrian colleges or universities. And you seem to have been warned off the place that you were thinking of by people who know it, so take that advice.

 

[doodle]

It can work very well. I used to work at a rs which is also on campus of a boarding school. There is the chance of working livery. There are 2 ponies that I can think of who are working livery and also compete. One in BD and one BE. All the RS ponies whether working or not are happy and pampered. None of them are sour. Some also do RDA.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

you may not mind others riding your 'hypothetical' horse but when you have searched months for one, handed over thousands (or perhaps 10+ thousand to get the temperament for you and others in an RS setting one that can progress with you and be ok for a RS rider will probably be expensive), paid for vetting, more thousands for your tack, which others will have access to, you might think differently.

It is hypothetical at this stage, I don't have a horse yet. I think what I meant was that the prospect of others riding said horse doesn't automatically bring to my mind assumptions about RS riders that some people seem to have. It doesn't mean I am 'anything goes' about it though.

We looked into working livery a few years back but decided against it for several of the reasons that other posters have raised. However the main one was that it wasn’t much cheaper than standard livery and the riding school were insisting on so many restrictions that my daughter would barely have been able to ride. She ended up starting out with a share horse two days a week (not at the riding school) which gave her her first experience of what it would be like to own a horse. I know your last share wasn’t perfect but would another share be a better option for now?

I definitely need to do a cost comparison - in part to see if it's worth any financial saving in the first place as well as to ensure I could afford non-working livery if it didn't work out for any reason. I have kept an eye out for shares but feeling fairly hopeless that I would find a good horse + yard + owner combo. Not that I think for a second finding my own horse and right yard would be a walk in the park!

I think the anti-RS sentiment in this thread is over stated. Or did you all learn to ride on over worked, deadened and inappropriate horses?

I think this is what I was trying to get at with having a different perspective about others riding. Definitely not saying RS have perfect care and riding practice but then this is probably similar to many non-RS yards.

If you know the yard then ask the other WL owners what they think about the set up. I was on DIY livery at a RS which had quite a few working liveries. One of the ponies got very naughty in the school and the RS school told the owners it wasn't working which caused carnage because they couldn't afford livery. Another wanted her horse for a sponsored ride but the RS needed him for lessons. Most of the rest ticked along ok though & it wasn't even the best RS.

I am friendly with one of the WL owners, I could ask them how it works out in practice.

My first horse was on working livery, and it's a good way for a novice owner to learn whilst having the safety net of the yard staff. I learned a lot! But then you get to the point where you know enough to look after a horse on your own, realise that you can make it work alongside a full time job, and don't like the fact that you teach your horse something which is then erased by other people riding a different way. So it depends where on your horsey journey you are.

Inevitably on a busy yard things go wrong - your horse gets turned out by mistake when you wanted to ride, or you get there to find it's already being used in a lesson. It happens on the best run yards just because there are lots of people involved and horses need to be sorted out quickly. But you have to do very little yourself, which is great when you work and have a long commute, or work erratic hours.

So it just depends what you are prepared to put up with at the point you are re knowledge, time and money.

I'm very much at the novice owner stage and wanting the potential safety net. I can see why people who are more experienced wouldn't even consider it because it doesn't present the same potential benefits to weigh against the drawbacks. There is another yard I like the look of I could approach for a comparison of non WL.

 

[quiteniceforacob]

This is why I went for full livery when I t got my first. I wanted the safety net of him being looked after properly and in a good routine with knowledgable people around. I came up through riding schools and absolutely value them, but didn’t consider working livery because it’s so hard to get to grips with a horse without anyone else riding in different ways.

That’s not to say all beginners are awful - we had to learn somewhere, BUT I don’t know that the horse I want to ride and compete is the horse to do that with.

He would have been suitable for RS when I bought him (a dope) but don’t think he’d put up with it now he’s in proper work.

 

[Alwaysmoretoknow]

In a properly well run and managed RS WL can benefit both the horses/ponies owners and the business. It can be a really beneficial gateway into horse ownership, offering the sort of handholding and backup experience that many 1st time owners need - especially when the new owner is a child with non-horsey parents.
There are standards regarding how much work RS horses are able to do per week and a good RS would also ensure that issues like rider weight, tack fit, rider competence to individual horses and variation in work type would be taken into consideration.
Plus a lot of new owners really enjoy and benefit from having a supportive community on hand to help them make the next step into moving onto a more 'dynamic' ride possibly kept differently at DIY or something else.
This is, I think, preferable to just letting inexperienced people loose to find things out the hard way - as evidenced by a lot of posts on here.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

In a properly well run and managed RS WL can benefit both the horses/ponies owners and the business. It can be a really beneficial gateway into horse ownership, offering the sort of handholding and backup experience that many 1st time owners need - especially when the new owner is a child with non-horsey parents.
There are standards regarding how much work RS horses are able to do per week and a good RS would also ensure that issues like rider weight, tack fit, rider competence to individual horses and variation in work type would be taken into consideration.
Plus a lot of new owners really enjoy and benefit from having a supportive community on hand to help them make the next step into moving onto a more 'dynamic' ride possibly kept differently at DIY or something else.
This is, I think, preferable to just letting inexperienced people loose to find things out the hard way - as evidenced by a lot of posts on here.

This is why I think it's such a shame people have had bad experiences with it/some RS offer a poor deal - there's so much potential benefit for both ends! Many RSs are struggling and are in need of a variety of horses to cater for different abilities, and the supportive community you mention is exactly what I would like as a new owner. I can think of a few WL I have ridden as an RS client and they were all ex-event/dressage horses so a great learning opportunity for me, so I am grateful there have been owners who have taken up this option and hope in those cases it was mutually beneficial!

I'm very grateful for the suggestions of things to look out for/questions to have in mind. It's very much research phase for me just now so I'm not jumping into any decisions. I will definitely going to look at a non-WL option for comparison.

It CAN possibly work, and it did for me at two well run and managed riding schools on the Wirral. Initially they used him for 10 hours/5 days a week, leaving me an hour a day plus a whole day. Horses to work a max of 3 hours a day, with one compulsory day off a week (Monday). I soon stumped up more livery money and they had him for 5 hours a week.

As soon as I could afford it, I took him off WL and into diy. The same horse then progressed to medium level affiliated dressage and into an awesome RC all rounder, including teams and RC nationals.

This only worked because of the standard of care and horsemanship at those riding schools. WL is a disaster in a lesser establishment. Never consider WL at one of the numerous equestrian colleges or universities. And you seem to have been warned off the place that you were thinking of by people who know it, so take that advice.

That's so great you've had a good experience of it. Also your horse sounds fabulous being able to take on his different 'careers' with you!

For clarification, the concerns about the place I was thinking of are based on a video of me riding I posted recently (now removed from open forum because it's not my horse and I am grateful the concern was discussed with me via PM instead of on open forum); to my knowledge neither of the people who have pointed out they would not use this yard know it in person, though I may stand to be corrected on that.

 

[wren123]

I would worry about the wear and tear on your horse's limbs, due to constantly going round in circles.
I had a load of lunge lessons when I got back into riding after a long break and to be honest although good for me, I wouldn't want my horse lunged that much. And at both establishments these were working liveries.
This is on top of all the issues already raised.

 

[Goldenstar]

One of the yards I trained on had horses on working livery .
I looked after one of them .
A handsome black gelding his owner was at uni in his final year and the horse came to keep him working as his rider was doing finals.
He worked three hours six days a week .
He was used in client private lessons and for the students doing stage four training .
His owner came a few times while I was there in the holidays he joined group jumping lessons.
He had a delicate wind and was kept on peat bedding the only time ever I have seen this in real life , he was called Angus and I liked him very much and I could tell he missed home and attention I gave him extra cuddles .
He also missed turnout .
As is the way of things I moved on and left him I thought about him a lot and hoped he got back home .

I don’t think I would do it but I can see how it could be a good thing for some horses in some situations there was also another horse there who actually belonged to my landlady he was a naughty six yo not getting enough work and he came it like boot camp for only students rode him and it did him a lot of good , one of the instructors bought him and he went on to a successful horse he did fewer hours than Angus and of course his owners paid more .

 

[Fire sign]

It is hypothetical at this stage, I don't have a horse yet. I think what I meant was that the prospect of others riding said horse doesn't automatically bring to my mind assumptions about RS riders that some people seem to have. It doesn't mean I am 'anything goes' about it though.


I definitely need to do a cost comparison - in part to see if it's worth any financial saving in the first place as well as to ensure I could afford non-working livery if it didn't work out for any reason. I have kept an eye out for shares but feeling fairly hopeless that I would find a good horse + yard + owner combo. Not that I think for a second finding my own horse and right yard would be a walk in the park!


I think this is what I was trying to get at with having a different perspective about others riding. Definitely not saying RS have perfect care and riding practice but then this is probably similar to many non-RS yards.


I am friendly with one of the WL owners, I could ask them how it works out in practice.


I'm very much at the novice owner stage and wanting the potential safety net. I can see why people who are more experienced wouldn't even consider it because it doesn't present the same potential benefits to weigh against the drawbacks. There is another yard I like the look of I could approach for a comparison of non WL.

Riding school horses work very very hard and have to put up with unbalanced bouncing riders and sometimes kicking and mouth jabbing as well. This happens even in the best riding schools and it’s just part of the process of learning to ride.
They do a valuable job but I wouldn’t want to subject one of my horses to it and would worry about the physical and mental toll on them

Totally understand how you feel about the safety net of support but this can be found on a good small livery yard too .. you don’t need that many facilities , just a kind and experienced yard owner with some common sense.

I am on a yard like this .. we are tucked away, off the beaten track but known by all the local equestrian community. Spaces aren’t advertised but the boxes are always full and we have every level of rider from first horse owner, happy hacker, competitive pony clubber, experienced showing people, classical dressage rider, loaners, young Mum‘s and older riders …

There must be somewhere like this in your area .. see what you can find by asking around your local area and scouring Facebook and the local boards on here ..

 

[teapot]

I will say though that the assumption on this thread that every rider is an unbalanced beginners, and that every horse has these riders on their backs is a little trying to read.

I've ridden many horses that are very much not used for beginners!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I will say though that the assumption on this thread that every rider is an unbalanced beginners, and that every horse has these riders on their backs is a little trying to read.

I've ridden many horses that are very much not used for beginners!

Indeed. My riding is nothing much to shout about but there are plenty of people at my level and well above this riding at riding schools.

 

[Identityincrisis]

I think the anti-RS sentiment in this thread is over stated. Or did you all learn to ride on over worked, deadened and inappropriate horses?

Yes i did!! And hated it! God forbid anyone would send their horses there for working livery. I was 7, parents completely unhorsey so didn’t know of anywhere else (way, way, way before the internet so word of mouth with no horsey people to point in the right direction) besides which, i still couldn’t recommend an ethical place to learn, near me, the only one closed during Covid.

Yes the majority of us learned in RS but that doesn’t mean they are great environments

 

[ycbm]

I will say though that the assumption on this thread that every rider is an unbalanced beginners, and that every horse has these riders on their backs is a little trying to read.

I've ridden many horses that are very much not used for beginners!

I have a real problem with the idea that RS horses can be being ridden in a school by any standard of rider for 3 hours a day. It isn't a situation I would put any horse of mine into.

I learned out on hacks, 50+ years ago, so I didn't see jaded horses and ponies.

There were a lot of other advantages to the learners of that way of learning, but it's pretty impossible these days so I don't know what the answer is.
.

 

[J&S]

I learned out on hacks, 50+ years ago, so I didn't see jaded horses and ponies.

Absolutely this! I learned out on the forest with a lead rein to begin with and shortly after was "set free" on lovely NF ponies (Velvet and Pippin!). Later at home in Northants at a local riding school on nice forward thinking ponies, always hacking. We did have a run of jumps down the side of the field outside the barn but other wise we jumped logs and stone walls out on the rides. We rode riding school ponies, each other's ponies who were on working livery, a few school horses all of excellent temperament. The RS ponies were often sold on to clients (like me). No arenas were in existence as far as I knew.

My companion pony came from a closing down riding school, she was well looked after but so closed down herself. Now a totally different pony. I would not put her back into that situation.

It seems to me, from reading here and anecdotal evidence from friends and aquaintances, that it goes two ways. Either worked hard in a riding school, too much school work, too many hours and too many riders or, young children getting first pony, liverying or at home and said pony acting up badly after a short time because of too little work/hacking.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Yes i did!! And hated it! God forbid anyone would send their horses there for working livery. I was 7, parents completely unhorsey so didn’t know of anywhere else (way, way, way before the internet so word of mouth with no horsey people to point in the right direction) besides which, i still couldn’t recommend an ethical place to learn, near me, the only one closed during Covid.

Yes the majority of us learned in RS but that doesn’t mean they are great environments

It doesn't mean they are all poor environments though.

One of the very first riding schools I went to as a child was a poor quality one (they literally were going round in circles all day) that I certainly wouldn't consider for WL. My non-horsey dad was able to recognise this with me eventually and then we found two really fabulous alternatives.

I have been to many RS over the years and it has been a real mix of quality.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I don't think anyone is saying all RS are bad.

I'd happily keep a (suitable) horse where I have occassional school master lessons.

The bigger issue for me would be that experienced people that (presumably) know the RS in real life are advising not to do WL there. That would ring alarm bells for me.

 

[teapot]

I have a real problem with the idea that RS horses can be being ridden in a school by any standard of rider for 3 hours a day. It isn't a situation I would put any horse of mine into.

I learned out on hacks, 50+ years ago, so I didn't see jaded horses and ponies.

There were a lot of other advantages to the learners of that way of learning, but it's pretty impossible these days so I don't know what the answer is.
.

Some absolutely do, that aspect is one of the many reasons why I left a job I loved, as allocating workloads became an ethical and moral decision. NOT all are like that though. I love the welfare and ethos of where I ride/choose to spend my money. Rarely have I got on one of their horses who’s already worked that day! They’re also fit, properly fit too, which again is something often overlooked in school horses.

It’s a very murky area when it comes to social licence however. What’s worse - 2 hours of low impact walk and trot work, five days a week, or a horse shut in a box 24/7, pulled out for an owner who thinks they know more than they actually do to ride it badly six days a week? Let’s face it, how many privately owned horses never see the outside of an arena fence or surface these days? Far far more than I’m sure people would be willing to admit.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I don't think anyone is saying all RS are bad.

I'd happily keep a (suitable) horse where I have occassional school master lessons.

The bigger issue for me would be that experienced people that (presumably) know the RS in real life are advising not to do WL there. That would ring alarm bells for me.

I kind if think some people are making that assumption tbh.

I have clarified further up thread that, to my knowledge and I accept I may be wrong on this, the people who indicated they would not considerthis RS specifically do not know the RS in real life and the comments were based on a video of me riding I posted recently.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I kind if think some people are making that assumption tbh.

I have clarified further up thread that, to my knowledge and I accept I may be wrong on this, the people who indicated they would not considerthis RS specifically do not know the RS in real life and the comments were based on a video of me riding I posted recently.

I must have missed that - I've not followed this thread post for post.

Good luck whatever you choose to do. Hope horse ownership becomes a reality for you in the future

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I must have missed that - I've not followed this thread post for post.

Good luck whatever you choose to do. Hope horse ownership becomes a reality for you in the future

No problem, I just felt it was an important bit of context in case it got missed.

Ownership is a little way off for me yet but once things are more settled I really do want to look into it properly.

 

[wren123]

I learnt out on hacks too. It was only in returning to riding after many years that I wanted lunge lessons. The riding school I used now has a waiting list and has very well schooled, well looked after horses and I certainly wasn't bumping on their back! However the fact remains I wouldn't want my horse being lunged or used in the school that much.

 

[ecb89]

Thank you for all the replies - lots of food for thought. I have a very different perspective on other people riding my hypothetical horse because for so long I have been the 'anyone' riding someone else's horse and some of my absolute favourites have been ones who either were current or past (since bought by RS) working liveries.

I've ridden at many RSs over the years, been in many group lessons, under many instructors and while it's definitely not all good practice at all of these places, I have certainly seen far more 'aggressive and idiotic' riding behaviour from people out and about at competitions (who probably ought to know better) than I ever have in an RS.

Thank you for all the replies - lots of food for thought. I have a very different perspective on other people riding my hypothetical horse because for so long I have been the 'anyone' riding someone else's horse and some of my absolute favourites have been ones who either were current or past (since bought by RS) working liveries.

I've ridden at many RSs over the years, been in many group lessons, under many instructors and while it's definitely not all good practice at all of these places, I have certainly seen far more 'aggressive and idiotic' riding behaviour from people out and about at competitions (who probably ought to know better) than I ever have in an RS.


Thank you I will PM you.

Schoolmaster yard is too far away unfortunately.

I would definitely want to check out the volume and balance of work. They do offer hacks and some of the lessons actually are split between arena work and then a short ride out because the hacking is on-site.

I’ve also been the riding school rider riding working liveries. Your opinion totally changes once it’s your pride and joy.

 

[Chianti]

Years ago I rode at a RS and several of the horses I rode were on working livery. After a few weeks I was offered lessons with the working pupils and we often rode the working liveries then. They were all lovely horses and weren't over used in any way. As always so much depends on the RS. This was owned by a lady who went on the become a fellow of the BHS so she knew her stuff. I was always very grateful to the owners who trusted their horses to us to ride.

 

[DressageCob]

The key for me, aside from checking when the horse would be used to make sure it fits in with me also wanting to ride, is what types of rider would be using the horse. If the horse will only be used for competent riders, perhaps to learn some lateral movements or some easy jumping, then that's rather different to the horse being used for beginners to learn on.

You don't want to get the feeling every time you ride that you're having to undo things from the previous session the horse had. The best working livery would be the feeling that the clients are improving your horse, which is absolutely achievable in a good riding school where your horse is being used for competent riders. Even if they are basic and just learning about half halts, for example, a half an hour lesson involving the rider learning to slow a horse off their body and feel and release is still of benefit to the horse and can help their education (if they aren't schoolmasters themselves).

The riding school where my horse lives is fantastic. They don't have working liveries generally, but if I had an accident or something and couldn't ride I would have no problem with my horse slotting into their lessons. I trust the instructors with what they teach and how they do it and I also trust the yard owner and manager to only give my horse to suitable people. If you have that sort of a relationship with the RS where you ride, then there's no reason why working livery wouldn't work for you. Good luck.