Working 'through' - have I got it wrong ....

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Herpesas

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.... or are judges not seeing what I'm feeling?

I was out at the weekend doing a bit of dressage and as per usual the comments from the judge were that the Hoss needs to work 'through' more and be more forward going. Looking back at the video, Hoss is relaxed with a rhythmical stride and a loosely swinging, elevated tail; nicely shaped in a novice outline in front - poll highest point, on the vertical but slightly long in the frame. This was what I understand 'through' to be, have I got it wrong?

I'm also confused by the forward going comment. Normally I would agree but this weekend he was working forward nicely and I only had to use my leg for transitions in speed or direction. He has got a long trot stride (about 136 bpm) but he is active in his hind leg and has a good 'suspense' to the stride. If you push him out of this natural stride he rushes and gets unbalanced.

Have I got this all wrong or is he just not looking like he's riding?
 
No way of telling without the video! :)

If you don't want to post it, your only choice is to go out again and see what other judges say. If they all agree, they are probably right. If it was a one off maybe the judge was having a bad day.

Do you have an instructor? What does he/she say?
 
Is he rounded across the back as well? He may be loose behind and doing a nice head outline but is it connected to the back end? Ie is his power coming frm behind, that may be where your problem is. I agree would help to see a video!
 
The video's not mine so I can't post it. :( I don't have an instructor at the moment (I'm struggling to find one).

His back end is weak but we're working on this with lots of transitions and some hillwork and he's definitely improving. At the weekend (most of the time) his back was up and he was holding his own outline. It was our first time to music and he definitely 'perked up' hence the confusion about forward going! :D

We always get the 'through and round' comment. But then, we had one comment earlier in the year when a judge marked us down for lengthening the frame in a medium trot??

I'm not sure how I've been trained to get a horse to work is what judges now want to see? :confused: :(
 
IME if you are doing a lot of tests and getting the same comment while you do come across the odd funky judge if you are doing a lot of tests and getting the consistent comments chances are they are all seeing the same thing.
You need to find a trainer to work with.
 
Herpesas said:
We always get the 'through and round' comment.
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If you are always getting the same comment, I'd think there is a difference in the way your horse is going compared to what judges are expecting to see.

Most judges (bar the odd one of two who have been on the mulled wine!) will be expecting a horse trained to the scales or training so I would be inclined to take their comments on board and look at your horse's way of going with a more critical pair of eyes.

Hard to say much more without video.
 
It might be helpful to you if you could look out for an opportunity to do a "clinic" where you can ride through a test in front of a judge, then the judge has a chat with you or even gives a short period of instruction, then you ride through the test again. If there is no opportunity to do this at the moment why not try approaching a judge at the end of the test and asking if they would mind clarifying this for you - i am sure if you approach the judge politely and ask if they have a few minutes to spare, and speak to them as someone who wants to learn, rather than complain about their marking you may well get helpful responses. I have found that if i choose my moment carefully judges are often willing to do this if they are not in a huge rush to get away at the end of the day.
 
We went to a judges training day were an olympic judge graded tests all ranges of tests in front us. We had to mark them ourselves and then the judge compared everyones marks and explained exactly why she gave hers. It really came down to the scales of training she said. But she also commented that 95% of horses she saw could be more 'through their back' so it's a comment almost everyone gets.
 
It sounds as though your horse is going well, but it depends what you want in life. A lot of competition dressage that I've seen does not IMO look very nice at all. The training methods that some of these professionals use can IMO leave a lot to be desired. But if you want to win, you have to give the judges what they want to see.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
It sounds as though your horse is going well, but it depends what you want in life. A lot of competition dressage that I've seen does not IMO look very nice at all. The training methods that some of these professionals use can IMO leave a lot to be desired. But if you want to win, you have to give the judges what they want to see.
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This is a terrible but true indictment of a lot of equestrian sport at the moment.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
It sounds as though your horse is going well, but it depends what you want in life. A lot of competition dressage that I've seen does not IMO look very nice at all. The training methods that some of these professionals use can IMO leave a lot to be desired. But if you want to win, you have to give the judges what they want to see.
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You think that horses working through their back don't look nice? Do you find that riding horses hollow 'looks nicer' (presumably you mean 'is better for them')? I have to say that is a new one on me!

OP have you tried the BD trainers' list? There is usually someone who is willing to come to you or at worse someone you can box to. In addition the regional activity pages on the BD website will give you dates of clinics, training days, test practicing days, etc.
 
Booboos said:
You think that horses working through their back don't look nice? Do you find that riding horses hollow 'looks nicer' (presumably you mean 'is better for them')? I have to say that is a new one on me!

OP have you tried the BD trainers' list? There is usually someone who is willing to come to you or at worse someone you can box to. In addition the regional activity pages on the BD website will give you dates of clinics, training days, test practicing days, etc.
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I agree with the above, if you compete at novice BD you wont see a winner often that isnt working through its back nicely, loose and swinging and forward going and normally a really nice partnership to watch, you also normally get the same partnerships scoring highly at different shows and under different judges. If you arent scoring well and your comments are consistant you are probably doing something wrong and maybe need some help training to get to where you want to go.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
It sounds as though your horse is going well, but it depends what you want in life. A lot of competition dressage that I've seen does not IMO look very nice at all. The training methods that some of these professionals use can IMO leave a lot to be desired. But if you want to win, you have to give the judges what they want to see.
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This is exactly the reason I'm finding it difficult to find someone to train us - the trainers that I've looked at (either riding or from their websites) have overbent, behind the vertical horses with hyperextension in front and not much going on behind. I don't want my horse to go like this! :( If this is what judges are looking for, then we aren't going to do well.

Don't get me wrong I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush, I'm genuinely trying to find out if my understanding of 'through' is incorrect.
 
Sometimes its a lost in translation thing with dressage. Durchlässigkeit is the word we take our "throughness" from ( afaik).

I sat with my German OH for a long time one night while he explained what Durchlässigkeit or "throughness" meant to me, and in turn how this would translate into riding.

Durchlässigkeit means more like Permeability. Like how a liquid can transfer through a material. I have been led to believe that throughness in riding is how well your aids flow freely to the horse, and how he willingly responds. He shoudl be light, supple and responsive to your every move.
In turn the horse who has connected with his rider in throughness he is connected in his outline, front and back, and is elastic.

The little wiki description sheds a fraction more light on it :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throughness



Ps - im not by any means close to being a dressage diva, just hoping to help a little with the term :)
pps.... if " through the back" is not related to throughness... ignore me :p
 
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It sounds like your horse is working well according to classical principles, however judges these days seem to favour overbent horses with noses behind the vertical and 2nd and 3rd vertebrae the highest point. I guess your options are, carry on as you are and just compete for fun. Change the way you school your horse so the judges mark him higher. Stop competing at all and do fun rides instead! They're fun :)
 
Well I can only speak from my experience from BD and I can't say that horses which were behind the vertical were winners, or even placed. The poll may not necessarily be the highest point because of the level of collection appropriate at Prelim/Novice, but I didn't see horses that were BTV doing well. While you might say my experience was limited and you would be right, I also have a horse (with flashy WB paces, so ticks all the other boxes) who naturally carries himself BTV, despite my best efforts to correct him, and he was always and without fail strongly penalised for it.

OP can you not ask your friend who videoed if you can post it on here?
 
Thanks Alainax and Goldenstar, that makes sense as he does lose concentration occasionally in the trotwork which means he's not quite 'there' when I ask for a transition. The canterwork he finds quite difficult still so he has to concentrate! :D

Ridefast - he gets to do fun stuff too! He's primarily a battle re-enactment horse - we do dressage during the winter so he doesn't turn feral!! :D:D
 
I wouldn't worry about the comments. that olympic judge said unless horses are scoring 9s and 10s, then they can always work more 'through'. Through in her words meant relaxed, happy, rhythmic and perfectly off the leg. So I'd imagine most horses qualify in those terms!
 
Herpesas said:
Would you mind explaining to me what 'through' is then please, as these things are what I have been taught it means?
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Well, he's going in a nice rhythm which is good. And his head is in the right place, which is a good point. It doesn't necessarily mean he's working from behind into the contact to create those things.

My sister's youngster goes very sweetly, she has a huge trot and just swings along. She naturally carries herself in a nice 'shape'. But she's not doing those because she's working through from behind, it's because it's where everything falls into place. So the judges give her 6/7, but when she does connect and work properly for parts she gets much higher marks.

I find generally that if different judges are saying the same thing, they're right.
 
paddi22 said:
I wouldn't worry about the comments. that olympic judge said unless horses are scoring 9s and 10s, then they can always work more 'through'. Through in her words meant relaxed, happy, rhythmic and perfectly off the leg. So I'd imagine most horses qualify in those terms!
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Sounds good to me!! :D:D
 
If you have difficulties with your transitions then you will be losing a lot of marks from this and presumably the horse becomes a bit hollow in the transition which generally indicates that the horse is not working through from behind. If the canter is not quite there yet also you will be getting lower marks for all those movements as well (5s instead of 7s) and then that can really lower the overall score.
 
He doesn't hollow, it's just that sometimes he isn't paying attention so the transitions don't happen when I first ask, which isn't so bad doing dressage to music (which is what we were doing this weekend) because you don't have to be on the marker. Scores are 7s and 8s for walk and trotwork; canterwork is 6s and the occasional 5 because his canter is big and not terribly balanced at the moment (he has been tensing approaching corners but is fine on circles).


'Through' comment was made particularly about trot, I know he's not 'through' in canter.
 
Seriously I think I would be glad to get a comment personally I hate it when they give you a 7 or 8 and no comment on what you could improve .
 
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