Working with,or against what you have.

[Big Ben]

This question was prompted in part by this thread

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=585199

And this question asked there

I see that you are trying to "reduce his exaggerated Spanish paces", now why would you want to be doing that? Those ARE his paces, and trying to change him into something non-Spanish will simply not work and may very well make him miserable.

and also by my own thread

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=585036

and this point

I know that there are those who love it, those who hate it, having read both sides of the argument I am thinking it may be a useful aid to own, to help my saddlebred cross horses get more comfortable with long and low as an idea. I don't know if they are all like it, but I believe that there was a particularly spooky giraffe bred into the mix at one time, which means that head up and body inverted is their default setting.

Now what I know about Spanish horses can be written in large capitals, on the back of a very small postage stamp, with room to spare, but I do I think remember the commentators on the Olympic dressage saying that the Spanish horses were great at collection, and usually had a good passage and piaffe, because they find elevation easy, but they struggle with extension.

My saddlebred crosses are kind of the opposite, they should be great at extension and covering ground, but trying to gather them up and collect and get off the ground is more of a battle.

So how much should you choose the right animal for what you are wanting to do, and how much can we mould, transform and change their natural strengths, to perform the disciplines we choose for them?

Not in anyway being 'off' here, just wondering what people think.

 

[tallyho!]

Yeah you see, I want to do all that elevated stuff and ponce so I bought a poncer. I have one that will do the opposite for when I fancy going flat out over jumps. They could probably do the opposite well but not sure I'd enjoy jumping on the poncer or enjoy poncing on the bouncy speed machine.... Believe me I tried

And anyway, so many types of horses out there. I wouldn't go bmxing on a road bike....

 

[Big Ben]

Yeah you see, I want to do all that elevated stuff and ponce so I bought a poncer.

BWAHAHAHA, You see I know that dear Emmy can do the elevated stuff, when she spooks she can get all 4 feet off of the ground and never make any forward motion, I think of her every time I see this

Now when I get the right size to ride her I'm hoping that she can be persuaded to ponce....

 

[milliepops]

I think it depends on the ultimate goals and approach of the rider (and having a realistic attitude )

I had no money to buy a poncer (great term, btw) or a speed machine so my little cob x HAS to do everything She's not especially suited to dressage or galloping but has appeared to enjoy both, at least she applies herself with enthusiasm to most things.

For me, the main point is that you are working WITH what you have, rather than against it - even if you are working with it to achieve something different to what you have, if that makes sense. So the horse doesn't feel oppressed by our 'moulding' but develops new strengths

My horse was built upside down and had no sense of balance when I got her, and she was mainly talented at eating. Had I only worked to her strengths we wouldn't have done a lot together As it is, with a lot of patience and hard graft she's been steered round a CCI* xc course and is winning Medium dressage.

I think the key thing for me though, is to preserve the horse's natural spark and personality, but that's about sympathetic training rather than necessarily buying the right horse for the job.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I think it depends on the ultimate goals and approach of the rider (and having a realistic attitude )

I had no money to buy a poncer (great term, btw) or a speed machine so my little cob x HAS to do everything She's not especially suited to dressage or galloping but has appeared to enjoy both, at least she applies herself with enthusiasm to most things.

For me, the main point is that you are working WITH what you have, rather than against it - even if you are working with it to achieve something different to what you have, if that makes sense. So the horse doesn't feel oppressed by our 'moulding' but develops new strengths

My horse was built upside down and had no sense of balance when I got her, and she was mainly talented at eating. Had I only worked to her strengths we wouldn't have done a lot together As it is, with a lot of patience and hard graft she's been steered round a CCI* xc course and is winning Medium dressage.

I think the key thing for me though, is to preserve the horse's natural spark and personality, but that's about sympathetic training rather than necessarily buying the right horse for the job.

Great post

My mare isn't even very good at eating but I am hoping she will improve at that.

The thing I like most about her is she really tries hard and has enthusiasm for everything I want to do. We may not be world beaters but we will have fun trying

 

[melle]

Love this post. My mare is mostly Tb and is very good at galloping and jumping. Dressage makes us both miserable. We have to do it for the dressage phase of eventing but I did spend about 2 years when I first had her 'doing dressage'. She could get to medium level according to all three instructors during this period. However it is always such an uphill battle.

However a few weeks ago my friend let me ride her hannovarian mare that was competing at Medium. Wow! Thats what it should feel like. However I am pretty sure that mare couldn't gallop round a pre-novice course to save her life!

Definitely pick the breed suited to what you want to do. Bit like choosing a greyhound to use on the shooting field. Just not going to happen without a lot of work!

 

[milliepops]

Just not going to happen without a lot of work!

Ah, but isn't that where the satisfaction comes from? If I'd had a wad of cash when I was looking for a horse then maybe it wouldn't have taken this long to achieve what we have, but I've enjoyed the journey immensely and learnt a huge amount along the way. Probably more than I would have done if I'd been able to 'fast track' through the levels on a horse with amazing breeding Hopefully my horse hasn't been too distressed by my ambitions!

(There's a good amount of jealousy coming from my corner, don't get me wrong - I'd love to have a super duper horse, but I can see the upside in producing my own superstar from a hairy part bred bog pony )

 

[tallyho!]

I get that and I did try to ponce on Malt I really did and we weren't half bad, he managed a half pass alright and could piaffe but.... I didn't get the same enthusiasm for the school as did when presented with the Xc boots and an open trailer.

I could almost see his eyes roll "oh save me, here we go. Lets go flipping sideways again. Who does she think I am? A crab??!"

 

[YorksG]

I think it is a bit of both, playing to your and your horses strengths, but also be willing to give new things a try
Me and my mare don't do jumping, I'm not keen and somebody has fried her brain with it. She loves showing, quite likes dressage and ever so surprisingly is absolutely brilliant at handy pony/horse We may even have a go at le-trek this year, although my map reading skills are not good at all!

 

[Big Ben]

I owned and had a kind of love hate relationship with a Haflinger, still probably the most beautiful mare I have ever owned I originally bought her to ride, and learn to drive. The riding was a struggle, we just didn't seem to click, but when I borrowed a set of harness and she went from her habitual, "if I must"

under saddle, to "Hoorah, lets go" in harness

Her whole demeanour changed. I struggled on for a while, but then sold her to a home where they wanted a driver.

This boy,

Bought him as an honest to goodness confidence giving western horse,loved that horse. Over the course of 3 years turned him into a training level dressage horse, and 2' clear round jumper

LOL, love this before and after

But he was never going to progress, he tried everything because I asked him to, but it was a hard slog all the way, for both of us. I sat and did some soul searching and eventually sold him to a really nice young man who was looking to get back in the saddle. He had been too scared to ride for 2 years until I got him up on G Man there. They are now roping together, and having a blast, and I have the new bunch to work with.

Part of the attraction for me is the journey, but at the same time actually buying a ready made, can do the discipline I want horse is so attractive at times...

Anyway, here is hoping that this bunch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mhsgi2v6Qc has a star in it, and that that star and I want to excel at the same discipline

 

[tallyho!]

Oh. My. God! That is maltesers twin!!!

P.s. this was a long time ago... You can see why we gave up... Check out those angry eyes!

 

[Cortez]

Aha! One of my favourite subjects! Having an "alrounder" is fine, as long as you are happy with being a Jack of all trades, and most likely Master of none. If you want to ponce; get a poncer! I used to do fancy-wancy dressage to a fairly high level and had and/or bred horses specialised to do this. Now I do a different job and have totally changed the type and breed of horses I use. I still judge dressage 'though, and regularly see people struggling to do the job with the wrong horse (this only applies if you want to be seriously competitive - if you just want to enjoy training your horse and having a bash, my hat is off to you).

 

[Big Ben]

WOW Tallyhohohohohohoho SNAP.....Appytude is a great one to work with isn't it

 

[tallyho!]

Hahaha! I know I was amazed to see your Appy! They even have matching black diamonds on the hocks!

See, malt was a real trier but dressage just didn't float his boat. He tensed more often than not and I found it hard work. Like Cortez says, you can tell when someone is struggling. A, I said to M, thanks for trying dude (he really was such a dude) but I will go get a natural poncer so you don't have to! You can see how tense he is in that photo even! It was like trying to hold back the Hoover dam some days and like riding a tarpit on others

 

[milliepops]

Aha! One of my favourite subjects! Having an "alrounder" is fine, as long as you are happy with being a Jack of all trades, and most likely Master of none. If you want to ponce; get a poncer! I used to do fancy-wancy dressage to a fairly high level and had and/or bred horses specialised to do this. Now I do a different job and have totally changed the type and breed of horses I use. I still judge dressage 'though, and regularly see people struggling to do the job with the wrong horse (this only applies if you want to be seriously competitive - if you just want to enjoy training your horse and having a bash, my hat is off to you).

Hmm, we may be at cross purposes here but I do think an all rounder can truly shine with correct training I don't know what level or where you judge but I don't actually see any people with the wrong types of horses at the shows I go to, I just see some people who maybe haven't got their training sorted yet but that's on all kinds of horses. Sure, the warmbloods natually look stunning but there are also plenty of natives and cobs doing a very good job in the dressage arena

Plus in my experience, having more than one job suits many horses - cross training is good for their minds and bodies IMO

 

[9tails]

I bought a carriage horse as a riding horse, she's extremely bouncy and all knee action. Looks great in the collected movements but can't extend for toffee.

 

[Cortez]

Sorry, not on the same waggon as you at all on this one; specialised areas of expertise require horses (and riders) that are capable. I also regularly see people jumping around courses on horses which are not very good at jumping (which would be a requirement, for me, if I was to launch myself over poles on horseback). As I said, fine if you're just doing it for the love of it, but at any sort of serious level you do need a horse which is actually suited to the activity.

 

[milliepops]

Is it more that the riders have ambitions beyond their current level of experience or their/horse's capability though? I agree that some horses are just not suitable for some things (YET) - like a horse that doesn't naturally tuck its knees up would be terrifying to jump over big XC fences... but could quite possibly be improved with some targetted jump schooling.

I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect everyone to have a horse for each discipline Moving away from pure dressage, say, there are lots of amateur hobby eventers without top breeding that can produce 3 good phases in one day

Out of interest, what would you class as a 'serious' level of competition? I think we all have different viewpoints with things like that

 

[Cortez]

Is it more that the riders have ambitions beyond their current level of experience or their/horse's capability though? I agree that some horses are just not suitable for some things (YET) - like a horse that doesn't naturally tuck its knees up would be terrifying to jump over big XC fences... but could quite possibly be improved with some targetted jump schooling.

I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect everyone to have a horse for each discipline Moving away from pure dressage, say, there are lots of amateur hobby eventers without top breeding that can produce 3 good phases in one day

Out of interest, what would you class as a 'serious' level of competition? I think we all have different viewpoints with things like that

Serious level? Dressage: Adv Med and above. SJ: 1.10m and above. Eventing I'm not familiar with, but I am talking a bit more than RC level in any discipline. Nothing against allrounders, and I know in the UK you are all very keen on having a bash at everything, on everything, but I think that if you want to really get the hang of something at a good level you do need the right horse for the job, otherwise I feel a lot of horses are struggling and not enjoying what they are being asked to do.

 

[milliepops]

I know in the UK you are all very keen on having a bash at everything, on everything,

that really made me smile Hmm, well, I can only afford to keep one horse at a time so it needs to be one that can do a bit of all the things I enjoy. I don't think mine is the exception to the rule being at a 'serious' level in 2 out of the 3 (and if we can ever get her changes clean, we'll have a crack at Adv Med soon too) And a rescue horse to boot!

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm an optimist when it comes to training horses, and an enthusiast when it comes to training people

ETA Re the bit about horses being pushed beyond their capabilities, I really do think that is a rider problem. Sometimes people want to run before they can walk. It's about being realistic about your combined ability at that point in time, surely? JMHO Think that applies to horses bred for the job too... not wanting to open another can of worms but I'm thinking of quick fixes used in SOME dressage yards on highly strung WBs

 

[Cortez]

Agree with you 98% Milliepops, and I think another can o' worms is people buying specialist horses and then not being able to ride them!

 

[milliepops]

Yes, indeed, and that is the saddest thing of all to me, because neither horse nor human are happy then I think the horse world would be a much happier place all round if people were properly honest with themselves about their abilities and level of commitment

Good thread BB Hope we haven't gone off on too much of a tangent!

 

[spookypony]

I think I agree with Cortez. It's fine to give it a go, and as a German, I'm genetically programmed to believe that anything with 4 legs and no pronounced limp should be capable of a Medium test, but in the end, if you seriously want to crack walnuts, get yourself a nutcracker and not a power drill. There's a certain appealing romanticism in the "little engine that could" or "underdog" type of thinking, but in the end, we all should know that a zebra simply isn't going to win a race against a herd of TBs.

With the Spooky Pony, I started off wanting to do some dressage, because that's what I like, and I assumed we'd be doing a little low-level jumping. He's definitely capable of that. However, he really really really doesn't want to, at least the way we were going about it. I haven't given up on schooling completely, but for his competitive discipline, I've gone with what he appears to like, rather than my own choice. There, too, he's not exactly the image of "Arab racing snake" that one generally associates with Endurance. But up here at least, quite a few Native types have done rather well at decent levels.

 

[Big Ben]

Yes, indeed, and that is the saddest thing of all to me, because neither horse nor human are happy then I think the horse world would be a much happier place all round if people were properly honest with themselves about their abilities and level of commitment

Good thread BB Hope we haven't gone off on too much of a tangent!

Nope, I'm loving the discussion, and I have found myself trying to work out what my 3 are going to end up doing..

Ben was bought purely for dressage, so for now I don't give a damn what he wants out of life, from Sunday January 13th at noon, he starts his journey to the dressage ring, and it's my intention that he will do at least a couple of seasons, it will give him a great start point, and from then we can decide if we want to continue that journey, or take another journey or go our separate ways.

Emmy was bought to enjoy, I would like to try dressage on her, but my feeling is that it may blow her mind, her momma wasn't that keen on dressage, they are both a little errr 'expressive' for that kind of life. Strangely something pulls me to doing competitive trail with Emmy, which is odd because she is scared of her own shadow, but If I can get her to trust me, then I believe she will be the most awesome and willing partner, who would probably walk through fire if I asked her to. This btw is the mare who had a good half an hour melt down because I asked her to step over a branch, well more of a twig, she isn't very wordly.

Wills, probably dressage, to start, but not sure ongoing.

The thing for me, Look back to Appy Gilmore up there, the before and after, the day I bought him, to the place I took him to.Now while ultimately he was not a dressage horse, I did triple his value, and some, and take the "must have experienced rider" took us two hours to load him on the trailer, to the self load, go anywhere do anything horse that I sold.

The three I have now, all rejects for one reason or another, my job, to make them useful citizens, and either enjoy them, or find out what they enjoy and find the right people to actually enjoy them.

 

[Littlelegs]

I'd say with. And that includes the horses desire to really want to do it too, as well as physical ability.
I have a connie x tb, who is built for jumping in true pingy pony fashion. Powerful back end, collection comes naturally, upright head carriage & agile. But equally importantly, she loves to jump & is determined. Whereas dressage she can do, but never as well as jumping. She can extend in a correct way, but she'll never float. By contrast, her changes, piaffe etc whilst not perfect in a competition sense, do have that good factor because they are more suited to her natural way of going. And anything related to jumping such as canter work, & basic workmanlike lateral work in canter that is handy on a course interests her more. She did flying changes herself in canter before I really understood what they were, purely from her own desire to be in balance. If either of us had more inclination to do dressage at a higher level she probably could have, but her build would make it hard. Hardest of all though her heart isn't in it. However, we made a good match, my thoughts are exactly the same. Exactly like her, I like the prancy stuff, but happy enough to do it in a field & not stress about technical correctness, otherwise flatwork is for jumping better rounds.
You can improve things, but as has already been said there's always a line where natural ability cuts off progress.

 

[Lolo]

I am fairly biased in that my sister and I have always had to ride what we were offered because our family cannot afford the initial outlay for a horse. So since we were 6 and 9 respectively, we've ridden loan ponies- you quickly learn that a horse or pony who is free is generally free for a very good reason!

As a result, I think you can persuade most types into doing some fairly decent stuff. Al rode a 14hh cob round 1.10m tracks and consistently won at BSJA shows on him. He was not designed to do much beyond pull a cart really, but he was what she had so on they went. It's been the pattern of our life really- you're given a pony and you make it work or you have no pony. Not really much of a choice!

I think if you want to be serious in any discipline, you do need to spend the money to get the 'right' horse. But really it's more about the trainability and whether they are willing to do the work, especially if you're on a limited budget.

 

[mandwhy]

Had the same situation as Lolo really, get whatever horse is available and make the best of it!

I am all for a good all rounder as I have never done much competing so want to have a go at everything in true British fashion, but maybe if I get into one discipline I might consider buying a horse more specific to the task.

I really don't think I'd persist if it was obvious a horse really hated what I wanted to do, much better to have a willing partner!

 

[Ilovefoals]

I was one of those people who had to be honest with themselves about buying the wrong kind of horse. I love dressage and wanted a flashy dressage beast to ponce about on and win! Unfortunately my courage has disappeared some what over the past few years and so highly strung Hanoverian mare was not a good idea, no matter how fabulous her looks and paces. It was just too scary for me!

And so now I have a pretty sporty looking 4yr old ID who I will do dressage on instead. I've realised my aspirations were a bit off the planet for my ability and now my main priority is to have fun and to enjoy dressage and training, even if it's only locally. His attitude is much more suited to me and I don't mind the compromise. He's very trainable and honest and I can see us going places. I can't wait!

 

[Irishbabygirl]

A couple of years ago I bought what I thought was an Irish Cob x as a 5 year old just backed and turned away. Turned out he can pace, is probably a Standie x instead and past is uncertain. I don't let him pace but I've learnt to embrace his huge trot and fun loving attitude and the shear fact that he is so bloody fast! I think we need to look into endurance or similar!

 

[tallyho!]

ETA Re the bit about horses being pushed beyond their capabilities, I really do think that is a rider problem. Sometimes people want to run before they can walk. It's about being realistic about your combined ability at that point in time, surely? JMHO Think that applies to horses bred for the job too... not wanting to open another can of worms but I'm thinking of quick fixes used in SOME dressage yards on highly strung WBs

Totally agree with this. Plenty don't realise how hard they are pushing and what their combined abilities are. My example... I had to decide that this was going no further. I wish people would do the same...