Worm counts versus wormers

[Cinnamontoast]

Especially for those of you on livery yards: are YOs allowing you to worm count rather than blanket worm? I'm concerned about the blanket worming and the resistance issue.

Most yards round here advise the wormer they want customers to use, but no checks are made. Some yards don't have a worming programme. Mine does, although being asked on multiple occasions, we still haven't been given it. Having followed the worming programme, I got back my first ever medium redworm count from Westgate (re-wormed, now clear)

I would prefer to only worm for encysted redworm/tapes annually and I can't understand why some YOs insist that we worm when no new wormers are being developed so we'll be in a bad way once resistance increases.

 

[Damnation]

I'm lucky, wormers are our own responsibility.

If I choose to worm count instead of worm then crack on, as long as one or the otheris done and appropriate action (if needed) is taken on the worm count results. Our horses are grazed alongside sheep which helps.

 

[soloequestrian]

I'm lucky to have my own at home, but the attitude of parts of the industry makes me want to weep. Perhaps making wormers available only on prescription (as they are in Holland I think) is the only solution?

 

[MissTyc]

I allow it on my yard - 30 horses in mixed herd turnout.

however, after discussions with the vet I have decided I cannot allow the "don't worm under 200 epg" guidelines as we do have a high burden in the fields because of the herd.

If zero count then my liveries don't have to worm. I enforce a resistance test 2 weeks after Equest every winter so I know it worked on everyone at that point. Several liveries only need to do a winter wormer + a tapeworm, whereas others consistently have a high burden. After much research I do believe that horses can be treated as individuals even within a herd as long as owners stay on top of it. I now better understand the worm burden distributions in the horses on my land and that has helped me with rotation and harrowing procedures as well. Overall, since I started allowing it (and I'll be honest, I didn't want to at first!), the burden has gone down and the counts are lower and lower with many 0 counts esp in the summer. My own horse is worm counted every 4 weeks and hasn't needed worming since her winter wormer so I'm please with the reduction of chemicals into her body as well.

The one thing I will not allow, however, is random contamination of the land and random wormers. Our wormer rotation is guided by the vet and I expect liveries to comply for the sake of reducing resistance. Likewise, if a horse needs to be wormed outside the field rotation cycle, then I expect them to be kept in or at least paddocked away from the herd for a minimum of 48 hours. To keep track, I have a worming calender with 30 columns and every horses' info gets tracked and recorded!

 

[minesadouble]

We used to work count at our yard but switched back to a worming programme after 2 horses who had zero worm counts subsequently turned out to have a significant worm burden.

 

[happyclappy]

I believe there is no such thing as a ZERO worm count.

 

[minesadouble]

A zero worm count does not mean a horse has no worms - all horses have worms, it means that no worm eggs were detected in the droppings sample. My point is that 2 horses on our yard had a significant worm infestation which was not detected by a worm count. One of these horses suffered intermittent spasmodic colic for a full week which the vets attributed to worms.

My vets say that to get a true picture of a horse's worm burden you would need to follow them for 24 hours collecting a sample from all of the droppings in that period. The colic incident was what prompted us to go back to a worming programme.

 

[milliepops]

my yard is on a worm count programme. YO is very sensible to these things, happily, and I think we will start the saliva test for tape this year.
My personal routine when not on a yard (& usually what we end up with on livery too) is to count all year, and then minimum of 1 x tape and 1 x equest or similar to deal with nasties not picked up but the FEC. This has worked for me so far for last 12 years. Millie hasn't needed anything additional up to this point but Kira usually wants something by the summer.

 

[Sealine]

I'm on a DIY livery yard with 40+ horses. We worm count but worm for tapeworm spring/autumn. My horse's worm count is always 'no eggs seen'.

I might try the saliva test for tapeworm this year. Can anyone tell me how you collect the saliva sample?

 

[almostthere]

Just a note on the saliva test. I know it is being very well marketed at the moment but worth talking to your vet (if you haven't already) because mine (a big equine practice in the South) did not recommend it when I discussed it with them. I think their rationale was that the tapeworm antibodies can stay in the system for 6 months or more and so even if the tapeworm has left the body you might still get a positive result as antibodies are still there. They also made the point that there is not as much concern about resistance from tapeworms as there is with other worms. Worth noting this practice is very very much in favour of worm counting rather than routine worming so to not recommend a similar approach to tapeworm they clearly feel very strongly about it. Not saying they are right...but just worth offering an alternative view

 

[milliepops]

Just a note on the saliva test. I know it is being very well marketed at the moment but worth talking to your vet (if you haven't already) because mine (a big equine practice in the South) did not recommend it when I discussed it with them. I think their rationale was that the tapeworm antibodies can stay in the system for 6 months or more and so even if the tapeworm has left the body you might still get a positive result as antibodies are still there. They also made the point that there is not as much concern about resistance from tapeworms as there is with other worms. Worth noting this practice is very very much in favour of worm counting rather than routine worming so to not recommend a similar approach to tapeworm they clearly feel very strongly about it. Not saying they are right...but just worth offering an alternative view

thanks at, I think that's why my YO has held off for now. Plus there's not much of a cost difference between a single dose for tape per year and one of the saliva tests

 

[kamili]

I find this really interesting. I was under the impression that my old yard was worming regularly (as in I was handing over money to get mine wormed) but I did a worm count and the burden was massive. over 5,500

Strong words were had and the truth came out. Nothing dosed despite paying and being told it was.

So I took the worming into my own hands and now worm count before dosing. However I've had to leave yards as my counts are coming back very high still despite this.
New Yard uses the blanket worming and no worm count.

I've spoken to a very well known vet from a vet hospital in the area and his advise (strong advise) is to worm count and only worm for what you have, instead you will build up resistance. He suspects that mine already have resistance hence the high counts.

I'd be interested in the tape worm saliva test, but I can't get it here yet. Has anyone done it?
Millipops, thats really interesting I had read something similar online, that you need to dose for tapeworm then test 2-3 weeks later. Which kinda defeats the purpose really.

 

[Wheels]

I will be doing the saliva test this time for the first time. It is more than 6 months since my lot were last wormed for tape and I have one with suspected ulcers. I want to rule out tape worm as a potential reason for bleeding in the hind gut and I also don't want to worm this particular horse at the moment if he doesn't need it

 

[paddy555]

A zero worm count does not mean a horse has no worms - all horses have worms, it means that no worm eggs were detected in the droppings sample. My point is that 2 horses on our yard had a significant worm infestation which was not detected by a worm count. One of these horses suffered intermittent spasmodic colic for a full week which the vets attributed to worms.

can I ask how the vets diagnosed colic due to worms?

 

[paddy555]

I'm lucky to have my own at home, but the attitude of parts of the industry makes me want to weep. Perhaps making wormers available only on prescription (as they are in Holland I think) is the only solution?

I strongly disagree. That would mean my vet would control my worming program and I simply don't think they have sufficient experience. (I appreciate some people won't like that arrogant attitude)

my horse was counted at Westgate over 500. Vet was informed as a matter of courtesy and I wormed. Asked vet when I should do FEC again, in around 8 weeks. Asked westgate, in around 2 weeks which I obviously did.
Seems to me the vet should have advised on a resistance test and they simply didn't. I got the impression they were not even aware of it.

 

[kamili]

can I ask how the vets diagnosed colic due to worms?

The worms can cause an impaction or blockage and as a result colic. I was warned about it when I got the high count back.
I was advised to feed extra oil to help the killed worms leave their guts when I was worming them and to keep an eye out for symptoms of colic.

 

[ester]

I try and avoid worm threads but I shall wade in with my sciencey bits
FEC only works if done frequently enough to build up a picture of the situation.
If not done frequently enough/poor samples taken I think the chance of a false negative and a decision not to worm is too high, several low counts yup great go ahead .
A good sample is preferably several droppings throughout the day mixed in a food blender .

When I had the facilities to do my own easily I used them but don't pay for them as it would only remove 1/2 of the treatments I do a year, plus if you are jabbing for mites (as I think you might CT) that kind of covers at least another one too!

 

[kamili]

Thanks ester,
how would the blending thing work? Would it not damage the sample? Also I had it explained that they needed the sample as soon after it was excreted as possible so that the little fellas didn't hatch.

Sorry (heehehehe) I've just opened a can of worms on you in a thread you didn't want to chip in on!

I deffo agree though on the count, it needs to be done every 12 weeks or so to be of any use!

 

[HashRouge]

I've been worm counting for 3 years or so now, possibly slightly longer as can't remember when I started! I tend to do 2-3 counts per year and they have always come back as either below 50epg or no eggs seen. I'm just about to do my first count of this year, I'm just waiting for Westgate to send me another sample kit as for some reason I only have one collection box at the moment. I always worm for red worm in January and had also been worming for tape worm in the Autumn. However, last year we did the saliva test for the first time. Both tested negative but I'm inclined to think I will just go back to wormers because the cost is about the same and I can't cope with the stress of getting a chronic crib biter who is used to 24/7 grazing to stand in a stable without eating for half an hour again

I think our set up is ideal from the point of view of worm prevention though, which does help. For the past 3-4 years they have only been kept in a pair and their grazing has been mixed, either with sheep or cattle, and never over grazed.

 

[DD]

I'm going back to worming this year. Have done counts results vary from zero , less than 50, less than 200 and 500. One horse consistently gets zero or very low. however as a youngster this horse was quite wormy and passed ascarids yet worm counts were coming back as very low and I was told not to worm.
So have decided to give my small closed herd a blanket worming programme for 2 years. they will be wormed every 6 weeks with strongid-p and twice a year against tapeworm and encysteds, with pramox . in 2 years time I should have eliminated worms in horses and on the pasture. I will start worm counting again then and see what happerns.

 

[ester]

Thanks ester,
how would the blending thing work? Would it not damage the sample? Also I had it explained that they needed the sample as soon after it was excreted as possible so that the little fellas didn't hatch.

Sorry (heehehehe) I've just opened a can of worms on you in a thread you didn't want to chip in on!

I deffo agree though on the count, it needs to be done every 12 weeks or so to be of any use!

Well I think a cement mixer would be better but even less realistic!
And no it doesn't damage the sample, re hatching you can always keep some in the fridge if testing fairly soon after testing the main thing about them being freshish is that they also aren't contaminated with random environmental worm eggs too.
The trouble is that any worms tend to produce lots of eggs at certain times of day, rather than on a nice regular interval so eggs tend to be aggregated in droppings. I'm also not even sure that I am happy with 12 weeks being enough, if you are trying to cover the summer grazing period.

I should add I am very very aware of the resistance issue but feel that under dosing and outdated practices such as worming then moving to clean pasture are more of a problem than time appropriate treatment.

Hashrouge, sheep are excellent worm hoovers Fwiw those who poo pick should also break the cycle if doing once a week in winter/twice a week in summer.

 

[OWLIE185]

The solution is to ensure that each and every poo is picked up from a paddock/field each day every day. That way you will dramatically reduce the worm burden. Also rest each field for a 3 month period once a year and that will also reduce the worm burden.

 

[kamili]

Thanks ester, some great info and food for thought there

 

[laura_nash]

I might try the saliva test for tapeworm this year. Can anyone tell me how you collect the saliva sample?

You just stick something in their mouth, it comes with full instructions and was easy enough to do even on a suspicious rescue pony. You do have to starve them for half an hour first though, which my cob was extremely vocal about (!) and that could be a problem for a purely field-kept horse.

 

[AandK]

The yard I keep my two at worm counts twice a year, usually March and Sept/Oct. All horses wormed in Oct. Only those with high egg counts are wormed in March. Luckily mine were low in March so 'traumatic' worming for them! (they are fine to syringe but act traumatised and wont eat for an hour or so after!)

 

[ester]

I'd worry that there is no winter coverage for encycsted redworm AndK?

 

[HashRouge]

Hashrouge, sheep are excellent worm hoovers Fwiw those who poo pick should also break the cycle if doing once a week in winter/twice a week in summer.

They seem to be excellent hoovers in general - we have some in with the horses at the moment and a particularly bold ewe enjoys sneaking mouthfuls of my mare's dinner every time she puts her head up

I just wanted to come back to this thread because since my last post the postman has been and I have already received my extra sample kit from Westgate labs, less than 24 hours after I ordered it! Their service really is very good.

 

[Borderreiver]

'Worm counts versus worming'? It never was and never will be a battle between the two as a good control programme needs both tests (accurate, at the correct time, with good advice to follow up) and worming doses (for encysted redworm and sometimes other parasites, for youngsters who usually really need worming but also need monitoring with tests). Thank goodness this message is getting through.
The tapeworm saliva test is a really useful test. Yes it costs a bit more but it will become part of good husbandry. We all pay for our farrier or trimmer to regularly treat feet and this is just the same although less costly. I've used it a lot with my own horses. Only 25-30% of horses need worming for tapeworm on current results of the thousands of test results done through Westgate. None of mine have needed it for nearly two years now, though initially a couple did. It is accurate. It is validated. The vets are simply wary till the papers are published and this is happening now.

Read what Equisal say: 'We are pleased to announce that our scientific validation paper has been accepted for publication following peer review in Veterinary Clinical Pathology. The paper is now “in press” and will be published shortly.
Due to commercial sensitivity of the methods used in the EquiSal Tapeworm Test, patents were filed prior to disclosure of the full experimental methods in the publication. This has led to a longer than expected wait for before we could publish the paper.'

Please read up about it and make your own mind up, not following hearsay.
We think there probably is evidence (anecdotal) for resistance to tapewormers. Some horses dosed regularly with the same drugs have returned unexpected positive tests.

 

[ester]

BR do you think there is possibly resistance to praziqunatel or just pyrantel still? I have probably asked you before sorry! I have always preferred to swap between the two but am a bit more restricted now on a yard that seems to like pramox.

The patent/publication thing is always tricky as patenting can be difficult and expensive. I actually think it is great they have decided to still publish as so many companies choose just to keep these things to themselves as long as they can instead and hope that no one else works it out rather than have a free for all in 20 years time post patent.

 

[Borderreiver]

Hi Ester, yes I think there is possibly a problem with praziquantel. Everyone has been using it so much as Pramox is easy and both equitape and equimax are also very popular. However, proper research is needed!