Wormers - I really wouldn't be surprised.

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If what is implicated in this article does become law. Wormers have been badly used for so long we are reaching a crisis point, more so in the sheep industry but resistance is growing in the equine world as well.

I cannot believe the "worming programmes" some YO's make their liveries follow - outdated advice that was right 20 years ago, but not now.
Some SQP's can hand out iffy advice too (as can some vets!!) But most of all I blame the internet and the fact you can buy, no questions asked wormer online without having a clue as to what parasites and at what stage of development the wormer is effective against, time and time again people just buy whatever is cheapest/what their mate told them to use etc etc regardless as to how that product will suit their situation.

So now it looks as if a wormer will cost a call out and consultation fee as well as the price of the tube, Many horses will go untreated as people seek to cut costs in the current climate. I agree that something has to be done to prevent the problem of wormer resistance getting worse, but it would be nice to see SQP's and vets work more closely, internet sales stopped in favour of face to face consultations and SQP's be given more training perhaps upto degree level in parasitology.

Click on the link for a read.

http://www.bva.co.uk/news/3306.aspx

 

[weebarney]

I was quite disturbed when an rda centre I know of told me they worm every 5-6 weeks, when I questioned this they said its what the vet told them to do.

 

[SO1]

I think this would be a really bad idea as I think a lot of horses just would not get wormed if this involved an expensive vet call out fee every 8-12 weeks as well as vets tending to charge more for items than you can get on the internet.

My pony is on intelligent worming and I am sure if I showed his program to vet combined with his worm counts it would be "approved" as being suitable.

I am not surprised BEVA would like wormers to be prescription only as this could potentially be a big money earning activity for them without then having to do very much!

 

[mandwhy]

Oh dear, worming confuses me (mainly because of the dodgy information and me thinking really? That can't be right!) but it will be unfortunate for people who do know what they're doing to have to go and consult ill-informed people in tack shops and unhelpful vets when they probably know more than the lot of them put together!

I have done some parasitology at uni, so anything that makes my qualifications useful is welcome!

 

[Dry Rot]

Not sure of the situation now, but it used to be the rule that game bird breeders could not get medicated feed (i.e. containing antibiotics or other medication) without a vet certificate. The vet simply wrote out a note without bothering to pay a visit and charged for it! Money for old rope!

I was so incensed I phoned the BVA and was told the vet should visit. When I asked what would happen if he didn't and I complained, they said, "Oh, we'd write him a letter".

More jobs for the boys.

 

[Queenbee]

Oh not great

I think a better way to go would be compulsory worm tests, and significant points around the year and the labs then send you what you do need, if you need it.

 

[SNORKEY]

My horse will only be wormed once a year with his jabs if only vets can give out wormers. Or il just stick to poo picking and finding a natural wormer.
I bet vets would love making all that extra money, £40 call out to give a wormer, ridiculous.

 

[OakeyT]

Vets are all trained to degree level in parasitology so surprisingly do know their stuff! And despite constant criticism that all vets want to do is bleed money out of people, the vast majority do NEED to earn a living ( as do you all ;-)). So if you can put those criticisms aside and think maybe just maybe this change would be good for the animals in their care! Resistance is a big issue but again is multifactorial.
Worming programmes need to be completely personalised to a set of circumstances there is no "one fits all" programme. And this is the point most people fail to realise.
Many vets cannot compete with Internet prices-the wholesale price to a vet is higher than the Internet price you pay for many wormers so it doesn't pay to try and stock them all in any case. If they become POM category then they will be dispensed like other medicines responsibly and to animals under our care- this doesn't mean a visit and consultation every 6 weeks!!

 

[WelshD]

I can't see vets welcoming it if they have to visit

I can see it being welcomed if they could write a prescription and charge for it

With regards to the game birds I do know that most chicken/gamebird savvy vets will write out prescriptions or put out meds for owners provided they have seen the flock in the last year and providing the owner knows what they are doing

Can see the equine wormer thing going the sane way, little extra work for the vet and money for old rope

 

[noodle_]

what a waste of their time!

i personally worm count....i will do another coming into spring, and again end of - i will worm count a few times a year and tbh if its clear then why worm??

i also tapeworm test too.....



i have a youngster - therefore dont pump crap into her that she dosent need. both worm counts are clear.... so now worm count prices go down in comparison to worming!

 

[tallyho!]

I knew this was coming as I work in pharma.

I know I always sound like a bloody know it all but honestly, I feel like I'm wasting my breath telling people to worm count and explaining WHY!

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I agree with the person that said not to be too critical of vets. However, I do know of a vet that worms 6 to 7 times a year with the Equest products. And recommends this for his clients.

Can someone tell me which worms are found in fecals and which are found by blood tests? Small encysted? How are they found? I may start doing the fecals and blood tests.

But in all seriousness this will lead to many horses not being wormed.

Terri

 

[tallyho!]

I agree with the person that said not to be too critical of vets. However, I do know of a vet that worms 6 to 7 times a year with the Equest products. And recommends this for his clients.

Can someone tell me which worms are found in fecals and which are found by blood tests? Small encysted? How are they found? I may start doing the fecals and blood tests.

But in all seriousness this will lead to many horses not being wormed.

Terri

Well that is just idiotic. This does not mean "don't worm" - it means BE RESPONSIBLE! If we carried on the same old routine we will have no effective antithelmintics. That's much worse than individual owners not worming... I couldnt care less if other peoples horses drop dead from a burden, but I care that despite being responsible, I can't find effective medicines!

http://www.equi-lab.co.uk/equilab.htm

http://www.westgatelabs.co.uk/

Resistance is a massive ignored reality of our society. We think pharma companies will just keep on making cheap drugs for us all... wrong! They are businesses and will make drugs for a growing market.

The lack of new antibiotics is killing cancer and surgery patients as there is nothing to treat post-op infections or those arising from immunosupressed pts.

Wake up people!

 

[MurphysMinder]

I went to a very interesting talk on worming put on by our vet practice last week. Lots of information about resistance and the speaker did mention that often the problems are caused by blanket worming programmes on large yards. In a fairly static herd he recommended worm counts and as long as these were low then just worm for tapeworm once or twice a year. He also said best way to control worms was good pasture management, e.g. poo picking and ideally cross grazing with sheep or cattle.

 

[Nudibranch]

I do think worm counts are the way to go, and then use the appropriate wormer as necessary. We graze with sheep, and cattle also in summer. Worm count four times a year and worm for tapeworm twice. As the worm counts always come back ok that means they are only dosed twice annually.

However that doesn't address the problem of tapeworms developing resistance! And not everyone can have sheep. It must be very difficult managing a large number of horses on a small acreage. But blanket worming is not the answer and there's still so much conflict and variation in the advice. Seems to me a lot of it is like the shoeing/barefoot argument. People are not prepared to look at alternatives because that's what they've always been told and if you dare go against the grain you're irresponsible or a bad owner.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Um, yeah, I'm not going to be one of those not worming. But there aren't going to be a whole lot of people having a vet call out every other month for de wormers and advice.

So don't include my post as the "wake up people" call. I take anti biotics one in a blue moon and never a course yearly or less.

My shock is despite the fact that vets do know about worming I've seen quite a few giving advice that has contributed to resistance.

I also won't be sending my samples to a UK company. So will be looking here in Ireland. But I will be checking out the credentials of those looking through the microscope too.

I'm sorry you seem to be going through difficulties but don't blame all of us.

Terri

 

[tallyho!]

I respect people who go against the grain - shows that their brain is at least a functioning organ.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Yes, I agree with Branch above. As a responsible owner I want to look at other possibilities. I worm 4 times a year now. But maybe I can do better.

Terri

 

[Slave2Magic]

I'm all for worm counts but they do not pick up encrysted redworm or tapeworm. Worming for tapeworm spring and autumn is a must but what test picks up encrysted reds? Is it a blood test?

 

[cptrayes]

So now it looks as if a wormer will cost a call out and consultation fee as well as the price of the tube, Many horses will go untreated as people seek to cut costs in the current climate. I agree that something has to be done to prevent the problem of wormer resistance getting worse, but it would be nice to see SQP's and vets work more closely, internet sales stopped in favour of face to face consultations and SQP's be given more training perhaps upto degree level in parasitology.

Click on the link for a read.

http://www.bva.co.uk/news/3306.aspx

I am old enough to have kept a horse when these were the rules, and I know many horses died of worm infestation problems because it was "too expensive" to worm.

I have to say that at the time, the vets contributed heavily to the problem by charging so much for the wormers that people did not use them, so their horses got sick, or they used less than they were told, thus creating a resistance problem.

If internet sales are stopped people will buy in from abroad illegally.

I really don't know what the answer is, but it certainly isn't to go back to vets only supply. It didn't work last time (in 1981 I bought mine "under the counter" in a pet shop) and there is even less reason to suppose it will work in the age of the world wide web.

 

[tallyho!]

Um, yeah, I'm not going to be one of those not worming. But there aren't going to be a whole lot of people having a vet call out every other month for de wormers and advice.

So don't include my post as the "wake up people" call. I take anti biotics one in a blue moon and never a course yearly or less.

My shock is despite the fact that vets do know about worming I've seen quite a few giving advice that has contributed to resistance.

I also won't be sending my samples to a UK company. So will be looking here in Ireland. But I will be checking out the credentials of those looking through the microscope too.

I'm sorry you seem to be going through difficulties but don't blame all of us.

Terri

Sorry Terri, my post was aimed at a larger audience... granted I quoted your post but you also assumed "people would just stop worming" and my response was aimed at these "people".

I'm not going through any difficulties personally... just difficult convincing people to stop blanket worming which will eventually become a difficulty for yourself and myself! And for that I blame "everyone" i.e. the larger equestrian community who won't bloody listen!

I forgot you were in Ireland (even though you are Equilibrium Ireland) so yes, there must be a lab in Ireland somewhere. If there isn't, could there be a gap in the Irish market....?

Well, you know, vets can be their own worst enemy. I don't take everything a vet says as gospel. They are not Gods, they are people just like you and I and were ingrained about worming many years ago when Schering-Plough, Pfizer & Merck-Merial dictated how and when we worm... vets rx the drugs and make a small profit. Now they are available OTC and Online, companies are going to advise you to worm as often as possible. It is totally irresponsible but there was no law to say otherwise and as long as professionals followed the SPC, they were not breaking any rules.

Hope you can see where I am coming from.

 

[touchstone]

I was stood in my local agricultural store last year when a traveller came in for wormers, he didn't have a clue which wormer to use, just wanted any that were the cheapest.

I don't think it would be a good thing just vets prescribing wormers, as I'm pretty certain the above mentioned traveller just wouldn't bother at all, but perhaps some of the stronger medications should be kept 'in reserve' for horses with a definite worm burden.

 

[cptrayes]

I was stood in my local agricultural store last year when a traveller came in for wormers, he didn't have a clue which wormer to use, just wanted any that were the cheapest.

I don't think it would be a good thing just vets prescribing wormers, as I'm pretty certain the above mentioned traveller just wouldn't bother at all, but perhaps some of the stronger medications should be kept 'in reserve' for horses with a definite worm burden.

Great idea Touchstone (annoyed I didn't think of it ) - one wormer that does all worms (may need more than one) should be "vet only". They'll probably have to find new ones, but they should be reserved as soon as they are found.

 

[tallyho!]

There are no "stronger" medications... What you see is available on the web e.g. Wormers-direct is all we have.

POMV may not be the best solution but there needs to be intervention if we are to stop the problem. If the letter urges reconsideration of the distribution, at least there will be talk about finding a suitable solution to stop what you describe... People not worming at all.

As I said, only idiots would not worm their horses

 

[tallyho!]

Great idea Touchstone (annoyed I didn't think of it ) - one wormer that does all worms (may need more than one) should be "vet only". They'll probably have to find new ones, but they should be reserved as soon as they are found.

No, there are no new ones. Merck, Pfizer, AstraZeneca nor any of the smaller animal health companies have any "new" antithelmintics in the pipeline. There is absolutely zero investment in this area. That's why there is such a huge problem.

Also, this idea of only allowing weak drugs into the mainstream... It's the weaker cheaper doses that created the problem as worms don't die, they become immune to it, and then become resistant. That how resistance works.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Before the article came out I was really starting to think that this is one of those areas I should be trying to do better. I de wormed last week. I do the best I can poo picking. I mean that in the sense that there are times, like now, getting everything up before the weather starts dissolving it is impossible. I'm not not trying but wow it's difficult.

And yes Tally Ho I'm like you I don't take everything a vet says as gospel. I moved to this place 3 years ago and I was gobsmacked to see the de worming this woman did along with her vet's guidance. The vet spends a lot of time here and she is his alternative therapy assistant. She said to me the other day she had to de worm with Pramox this week. I knew she did him at the beginning of Feb with the same and for once I didn't bite my tongue. I just referred her to some articles on resistance. But since the vet is advising she thinks its ok. Also should note she NEVER poo picks. Nor did the vet when he had a horse here. But they say the ground is rotten so more de worming is needed. So really if they want us to take vet advice then all vets should have to attend some de worming only special meetings or something if the effect. Not just relying on de wormers but also management.

I also remember the days of tube de worming. That's what it used to be. I'm going to have to scout for companies and try to sort fecals and blood tests for mine and go from there.

Terri

 

[cptrayes]

No, there are no new ones. Merck, Pfizer, AstraZeneca nor any of the smaller animal health companies have any "new" antithelmintics in the pipeline. There is absolutely zero investment in this area. That's why there is such a huge problem.

Also, this idea of only allowing weak drugs into the mainstream... It's the weaker cheaper doses that created the problem as worms don't die, they become immune to it, and then become resistant. That how resistance works.

So there will have to be some research, and when horses start dying in big numbers, there will be.

It isn't a question of only allowing the weaker drugs into the market, they are already the only ones in the market. It's a question of reserving the next strong one found so the problem can be contained, and then releasing it when a second is also available.

I have noticed that sheep wormers seem to go on to become horse wormers, and the sheep market in places like Australia is ginormous. If their sheep stop thriving, there will be more research, it will follow the money.

 

[cptrayes]

POMV may not be the best solution but there needs to be intervention if we are to stop the problem. If the letter urges reconsideration of the distribution, at least there will be talk about finding a suitable solution to stop what you describe... People not worming at all.

But it won't stop the problem - horses dying of worm burden. It will simply cause two things -

- people illegally importing from countries which have to have looser laws because of the huge geographic areas that vets have to cover, via the internet.

- people stopping worming. You cannot solve this one until the passport situation is sorted out, and that would cost billions in new computer systems and policing. It's not going to happen.

 

[tallyho!]

Well, I hope you are right about the sheep market... They are having the same problems as we are in the equine market right now.

The best solution we have right now is FECs.

Horses dropping dead may or may not happen but we do have to take individual responsibility at this basic level to safeguard our own animals.

 

[Clodagh]

I think it isn't altogether a bad thing, I can only speak for my vets but I have talked about wormers with them at annual booster time and surely they could then allow me the discussed products, either by script or selling it to me. I admit I only worm twice a year for tapeworm and poo pick and worm count, and I only have 3 horses so it doesn't cost me a fortune but we have to do something to stop the every six weeks chemical haze a lot of yards live in.