Worried about something quite outside my control

[Clodagh]

A friend has taken on a Bulgarian rescue dog, an Anatolian shepherd I think? It's enormous! It's an ex street dog. I haven't met it in the flesh but apparently it has adapted well, gets on with their dogs and is friendly to everyone outside the house.
They have had him about 10 days and the neighbours came round to meet him, as they let the dogs out when friend is at work. They were all sitting down having coffee when one of the other dogs barked at someone going past the house, and the rescue leaped up and attacked the neighbour, who is an elderly man. They managed to pull him off before any damage was done but it was very frightening.
Bizarrely they are going to try again this weekend, and if the meet and greet goes OK the neighbour will be going round there on his own from next week to let them out. I am so worried this dog will attack him, and do serious damage. I have expressed my fears, but it was just 'Don't worry, we are going to see how he gets on meeting him with us again first'.
I don't think I would ever trust this dog with visitors.
There is nothing I can do or say, soam just worrying myself sick about it. I am hoping the neighbour will say he won't do it as apparently he is badly shaken by what happened.
They have a kennel and run in the garden, why can't the new dog go out there and the neighbour just do their previous 3?
Pointless thread!

 

[skinnydipper]

I would be worried too, Clodagh.

The Anatolian Shepherd is a livestock guardian. He will think he is doing his job - protecting his new family and property. It is what they are bred for, they are left out with the flock and work independently.

 

[fiwen30]

I’d be worried too. I certainly wouldn’t be setting the same scenario up again to ‘see what happens this time’ - you’ve already seen what happens!

Unless they’re going in with a different plan of action, ie. under the supervision of a trainer, the dog appropriately muzzle-trained etc., then they’re just setting the dog up to fail. Doing the same thing over again and expecting different results is the definition of madness for a reason.

 

[ester]

The neighbour is bonkers!

 

[skinnydipper]

Keeping the neighbour safe must be the priority. The kennel and run sounds ideal - if it is securely fenced and can cope with a large dog.

I have posted before about an Anatolian Shepherd living round the corner from me. He broke through the fence surrounding the garden and bit a passerby

 

[twiggy2]

Well some people are just barmy, nothing you can do tthough. The potential for significant damage is great though with a dog of that size and power. Poor dog, they ar not household pets at all.
I have only worked with one Anatolian Shepherd and he arrived at dog training on a busy night, he was an entire three year old rescue from abroad, the new owner had a wildfowl rescue and wanted a free roaming dog to guard the place against foxes, he was an absolute delight, the only thing he did wrong was pee on his owner, she was sat in a chair and he was tall enough that when he cooked his leg the pee actually landed in her lap.

 

[planete]

The only hopeful points in this are a) no damage was done (good bite inhibition?/ rush to a door/window in guarding mode mistaken for attack of person close by?) and b) humans were faster than an attacking dog and managed to prevent a bite? From my experience this is nearly impossible if the dog means business.

The fact remains this is a large guarding breed who is as yet an unknown quantity and nobody should be trying to walk into his home without the owners being present to keep him under close control, even if he had a totally unblemished record of friendliness. These people are totally irresponsible.

 

[deb_l222]

The neighbour is bonkers!

Hmmmm yes, I was going to say, more fool the neighbour!!

I have a friend, who does dog rescue, who I sometimes despair with. We have to agree to disagree a lot of the time, or we would fall out. For some reason she will always give a dog yet another chance, even if she's been badly bitten. She's not irresponsible enough to re-home the dogs but does keep them herself.

For me, if a dog has attacked someone, totally unprovoked, then they're not to be trusted. You could argue the dog was provoked by the person going past the house but the dog chose to attack the human IN the house. That really isn't good. There's worse fates than being put to sleep and it wouldn't be getting another chance with me and I've had my fair share of aggressive dogs over the years.............who haven't needed to be PTS for that reason, I hasten to add.

One of the reasons I stepped sideways from rescue is because of the number of dogs my rescue in particular were keeping in kennels due to aggression issues. Yes, it's responsible NOT to re-home them but to decide to keep a 3 year old aggressive dog in kennels for the rest of its life (albeit well looked after) just doesn't sit right with me. Again, there's far worse fates than being put to sleep.

Gosh, I've managed to have a long old rant here

 

[AmyMay]

Would it be a step to far to pop around to the neighbour and ask him to reconsider? He could be badly bitten at best, killed at worst.....

 

[CorvusCorax]

Dogs dont understand the concept of being given the benefit of the doubt. I've never seen it happen yet. They just do what worked for them the first time.

If the dog, which is genetically predisposed to guard a boundary from strangers, does so, and the threat retreats, the behaviour is reinforced. To repeat it is lunacy.

Is it supreme human arrogance to expect to override learned experience and genetics **in ten days** and confirms my belief that your average pet owner has no business keeping dogs like these in their domestic properties.

It's like capturing a wild horse and expecting to turn it into a pampered show pony living in 24/7.

PS a friend kept Anatolians on their farm in the wilds of Canada. They were never, ever inside. They didn't even enjoy being in the barn.

 

[Clodagh]

I would be worried too, Clodagh.

The Anatolian Shepherd is a livestock guardian. He will think he is doing his job - protecting his new family and property. It is what they are bred for, they are left out with the flock and work independently.

They did say that the dog was only doing what he thought was right.

 

[Clodagh]

The only hopeful points in this are a) no damage was done (good bite inhibition?/ rush to a door/window in guarding mode mistaken for attack of person close by?) and b) humans were faster than an attacking dog and managed to prevent a bite? From my experience this is nearly impossible if the dog means business.

The fact remains this is a large guarding breed who is as yet an unknown quantity and nobody should be trying to walk into his home without the owners being present to keep him under close control, even if he had a totally unblemished record of friendliness. These people are totally irresponsible.

I gather that he was being held loosely by his collar, so pulled away from that but then fell over the coffee table on his way through. I don't know any more detail.

 

[Clodagh]

Hmmmm yes, I was going to say, more fool the neighbour!!

I have a friend, who does dog rescue, who I sometimes despair with. We have to agree to disagree a lot of the time, or we would fall out. For some reason she will always give a dog yet another chance, even if she's been badly bitten. She's not irresponsible enough to re-home the dogs but does keep them herself.

For me, if a dog has attacked someone, totally unprovoked, then they're not to be trusted. You could argue the dog was provoked by the person going past the house but the dog chose to attack the human IN the house. That really isn't good. There's worse fates than being put to sleep and it wouldn't be getting another chance with me and I've had my fair share of aggressive dogs over the years.............who haven't needed to be PTS for that reason, I hasten to add.

One of the reasons I stepped sideways from rescue is because of the number of dogs my rescue in particular were keeping in kennels due to aggression issues. Yes, it's responsible NOT to re-home them but to decide to keep a 3 year old aggressive dog in kennels for the rest of its life (albeit well looked after) just doesn't sit right with me. Again, there's far worse fates than being put to sleep.

Gosh, I've managed to have a long old rant here

I totally agree with you. Apparently if they decide not to keep him he has to go back to Bulgaria? So he can be readopted I suppose. If he were mineI'd have him PTS here and just say he got run over.

 

[Clodagh]

Would it be a step to far to pop around to the neighbour and ask him to reconsider? He could be badly bitten at best, killed at worst.....

I really can't. Friend rang him again last night to see how he was and apparantly he is still distressed, he loves all dogs and only doesn't have one now as he feels he is too old for the commitment, it must feel quite personal, particulary if (like me) you have no experience of a feral guarding breed.
Hopefully he will say he just can't. Or his wife will.

 

[Clodagh]

Dogs dont understand the concept of being given the benefit of the doubt. I've never seen it happen yet. They just do what worked for them the first time.

If the dog, which is genetically predisposed to guard a boundary from strangers, does so, and the threat retreats, the behaviour is reinforced. To repeat it is lunacy.

Is it supreme human arrogance to expect to override learned experience and genetics **in ten days** and confirms my belief that your average pet owner has no business keeping dogs like these in their domestic properties.

It's like capturing a wild horse and expecting to turn it into a pampered show pony living in 24/7.

PS a friend kept Anatolians on their farm in the wilds of Canada. They were never, ever inside. They didn't even enjoy being in the barn.

Apparently he has never been in a house and will only settle down pressed against the back door. :-( . He can't be happy.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh, don't tell me any more. I may bust a blood vessel.

I expect they think they can 'love' him happy with this completely stressful and alien new lifestyle. And what the hell did the rescue think they were playing at. Aaarrrghhhhhhhhh.

 

[skinnydipper]

Apparently he has never been in a house and will only settle down pressed against the back door. :-( . He can't be happy.

Oh dear. I was suggesting the kennel and run for when the family were absent - to keep the neighbour safe. Poor dog, I think too much is being asked of him.

 

[Clodagh]

Oh, don't tell me any more. I may bust a blood vessel.

I expect they think they can 'love' him happy with this completely stressful and alien new lifestyle. And what the hell did the rescue think they were playing at. Aaarrrghhhhhhhhh.

 

[Leo Walker]

This just isnt a pet dog. It sounds utterly miserable. And if they keep it they are being very selfish. I too would be having the dog quietly PTS and saying there had been some sort of accident.

 

[gunnergundog]

Apparently if they decide not to keep him he has to go back to Bulgaria? So he can be readopted I suppose. If he were mineI'd have him PTS here and just say he got run over.

PTS = number one choice; send back to Bulgaria = number two.
Crazy, crazy world.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Sorry, this isn't good for my blood pressure, but wedging himself against the back door isn't 'settling', it's placing himself as close to escape as he can get, its giving up/defeat, because he has nothing else to do and nowhere else to go.

 

[splashgirl45]

yet another foreign dog that should never have been bought over here to go in a pet home. we have quite a few foreign rescues round here and none of them have settled enough to even walk nicely on a lead and quite a few of them are aggressive as well....its about time something was done so that these dogs are PTS humanely in their own country and not shipped all over the place so do gooders think they are such animal lovers and want a pat on the back, and dont get me started on the blind old dogs or the poor dogs who have no movement in their back legs and are reliant on a trolley that also get shoved over here ......it makes me so cross!!!!!!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I took on an Anatolian Shepherd dog from a friend who was emigrating to a hot country and so couldn't take her; this dog had been bred over here but had somehow ended up in a rescue, and then this friend had taken her on.

She was a lovely girl, a real sweetie, and didn't ever have any vice in her. But if she felt anyone was a threat, she'd then immediately go into "protective" mode; she never bit anyone, she never had to, these are huge great dogs and when they adopt that certain "protective pose" most people who tend to stay away.

Dogs like this are herd dogs, they apparently originate from the Anatolian mountains in Turkey, and have historically been used for keeping the wolves away from the sheep flocks on the mountains. So are well used to holding their own against formidable odds! Not exactly your sweet little domesticated pooch therefore! They need a LOT of exercise, and thrive best in a working atmosphere where they're not only kept busy physically but also their minds are kept alert.

The problem with any dog like this is exactly what has been described here: someone who's totally fluffy-round-the-edges has somehow got hold of a dog like this, and have no idea what they've got or what to do with it!!

For me, if a dog - any dog - had attacked a person like that, then sorry but it would be on its way to the vets with a one-way ticket. Not the dog's fault, I know, but that could sooohh easily have ended up with a much worse result. Or a child next time; or a pregnant woman..........

The neighbour needs his head examining frankly. Talk about crass stupidity. Classic case of "if you keep doing the same thing you'll get the same result you've had before". What on earth do the owners and this guy think will happen next time round?? And what will it take for them to see sense? Words fail me they really do!

One has to feel sorry for the dog in this situation, it is merely doing what comes naturally, the poor thing is obviously confused and unsettled, coupled with the fact it just doesn't know what it should be doing or who its Pack Leader is, and the Pack Leader isn't giving it the firm lead it needs in any case. IMO the ONLY way the situation could be redeemed would be for someone to take it on who has experience of this type of dog, and who has some work for it to do to stimulate it, and has plenty of time and energy - and space - for it to have enough mental and physical stimulation.

This is an accident waiting to happen I'm afraid. Frightening. WHY oh why are people soooh stupid.

 

[ester]

I suspect the neighbour probably quite enjoys letting the dogs out if he doesn't have one of his own but likes them and is potentially a bit gutted if he has to say he can't do it anymore.

It's all very well saying the dog only did what it thought was right but that doesn't exactly resolve the situation either.

 

[Clodagh]

I suspect the neighbour probably quite enjoys letting the dogs out if he doesn't have one of his own but likes them and is potentially a bit gutted if he has to say he can't do it anymore.

It's all very well saying the dog only did what it thought was right but that doesn't exactly resolve the situation either.

This, absolutely. It is a very sad situation. Apparently there is also family coming to stay tomorrow for the weekend, so the dog is getting everything to deal with..
The 'rescuers' have a lab that they accept carries things, and a setter, that they accept hunts and points, why not accept that a guarding breed is going to do just that?

 

[skinnydipper]

This, absolutely. It is a very sad situation. Apparently there is also family coming to stay tomorrow for the weekend, so the dog is getting everything to deal with..
The 'rescuers' have a lab that they accept carries things, and a setter, that they accept hunts and points, why not accept that a guarding breed is going to do just that?

It sounds like a recipe for disaster. I hope the dog will be in the kennel and run for the time the visitors are staying at least. The dog is struggling to cope with the situation as it is without added stress. I would suggest they contact the rescue and explain what has happened with the neighbour and see what advice they can give. It sounds like it was redirected aggression when the other dog reacted to the noise outside.

ETA. I don't hold out much hope that the rescue will be of any help. They have been totally unfair to both the dog and the new owner so far.

 

[Clodagh]

It sounds like a recipe for disaster. I hope the dog will be in the kennel and run for the time the visitors are staying at least. The dog is struggling to cope with the situation as it is without added stress. I would suggest they contact the rescue and explain what has happened with the neighbour and see what advice they can give. It sounds like it was redirected aggression.

ETA. I don't hold out much hope that the rescue will be of any help. They have been totally unfair to both the dog and the new owner so far.

I suspect the rescue has got a big fat donation and no longer give a shit.

 

[Equi]

I really hope the gentleman does not do it, and your friend is not pressuring him into it (even if they don't mean to, but perhaps he doesn't like to let people down)

Working dogs don't make easy pets. If he can't have his own little old fluff of a dog what chance does he have against a huge great protective dog that has already made it clear he will attack him?

This is one post i really hope i don't re-read in a paper.

 

[Equi]

Apparently he has never been in a house and will only settle down pressed against the back door. :-( . He can't be happy.

somewhat a different topic but this really annoys me. Not all dogs are house dogs, not all dogs WANT to be house dogs...but so many rescues and people just can't fathom that. I had a setter/retriever mix bitch many years ago i got out of the paper who point blank REFUSED to ever come into the house. If she ever did end up in (like dragged by the collar because there was stuff happening in the yard or sheds and she couldn't be trusted not to go wandering) she would pace, whine, pant and literally knock you over until that door was opened again. Snow could be on the floor, her life long buddy could be inside on the rug in front of the fire and the door could be wide open but that dog would NOT come inside. Outside the door she was a wonderful dog and adored by everyone but in the house she was a total headcase.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I am also rather concerned that the 'elderly' neighbour who is apparently a dog lover is perhaps feeling under pressure, in that if he refused to deal with this dog for them along with their other dogs, then said dog might well be PTS. Sorry but to me they sound like totally airy fairy unsuitable owners for this dog and the dog should be PTS, dont even put it through the stress of returning to Bulgaria, IF the rescue will even agree to take it back which i very much doubt.

Not only do your friends have it within their remit to do the right thing by this poor dog, but they also have a duty of care to their neighbour elderly or not. They should make the right decision and do NOT make the poor man feel it is his fault in any way if the dog is PTS.