Worried about something quite outside my control

[Archangel]

Your friend is being incredibly selfish.

She has got her fingers in her ears going "la-la-la" to anything that is going to upset the lovely and convenient "off we go to work and kindly Mr X will let the dogs out".

She needs to pay a professional and proven dog walker/trainer with experience of this type of dog to let the dogs out at lunchtime.

Your friend needs to take responsibility for her decision to change her circumstances from "let fido 1 and 2 out at lunchtime" to "deal with large challenging semi-feral dog"

Is it early days to leave the dogs together all day - they have only known each other 10 days, who knows what could kick off.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I really can't. Friend rang him again last night to see how he was and apparantly he is still distressed, he loves all dogs and only doesn't have one now as he feels he is too old for the commitment, it must feel quite personal, particulary if (like me) you have no experience of a feral guarding breed.
Hopefully he will say he just can't. Or his wife will.

Or better still the new owner will act responsibly and decide that it will be safer for all concerned if the dog is in the kennel and run when the owner isn't there. I just hope the dog remembers who the owner is and doesn't attack them.

 

[Clodagh]

Is it early days to leave the dogs together all day - they have only known each other 10 days, who knows what could kick off.

I asked that, as apparently there has been some jealous argy bargy growling stuff anyway. We don't leave our four together when we go out and they have been together all their lives.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm another one who hopes I don't read about this in the news adding family coming over to stay for the weekend sounds like a recipe for disaster

 

[{97702}]

I really really hate this sort of situation, and I’m afraid I am going to piss off a lot of people with my reply.

IMO of course the dog should not be PTS for what he did.... he is doing what he has been bred to do, BY MANKIND, for generations.

By all means condemn (or PTS?) the criminally irresponsible idiots who re-homed this dog to a totally unsuitable situation, with people who clearly don’t understand his needs.

And find the dog a decent home where he can be happy. If that isn't possible - or, more likely, humans cannot be bothered to make enough effort - then PTS a clearly unhappy dog

A bit off topic but my greyhound boys had a serious fight a few weeks ago - they had lived together in perfect harmony for 6 months prior to that, but something set them off and 38kg Ace pasted my poor 30kg wimp Marty big time. He meant it too. I could tell that the rescue charity were sure I would send Ace back to them, but as far as I'm concerned it was MY major failing as an owner which allowed that situation to occur. I'm devastated it happened, I have put measures in place to ensure it cannot happen again, and thank god Marty has recovered fine and they are back to getting on really well together. Did I blame Ace for what happened? Nope, it was MY fault not his, why should Ace be blamed for his natural reactions?

If more owners were a bit more bloody responsible then a lot of the problems we see with dogs wouldnt happen...

 

[Leo Walker]

Where is this miracle home for a large human aggressive dog going to materialise from? PTS is the best possible outcome for this poor, miserable dog. Its far preferable to living in a hugely unsuitable home, or being shunted off to yet another strange place.

 

[{97702}]

Where is this miracle home for a large human aggressive dog going to materialise from? PTS is the best possible outcome for this poor, miserable dog. Its far preferable to living in a hugely unsuitable home, or being shunted off to yet another strange place.

The home will be there - they always are, but it is a matter of time and patience. None of which humans have much of when re-homing rescue dogs in my experience. So as I have said above, if this cannot be arranged then PTS.

 

[Equi]

Very true Lev + leo. The problem is the rescues won't rehome to the home the dog probably would like or needs. They have in their head the idea of what a home should be and that is IT, and the people rehoming have an idea of what they think a perfect dog is and expect it to be that..there is very little grey area. The dogs own choice rarely comes into it. Which is probably why so many working type dogs don't get successfully rehomed. I often struggle to see how rehoming a dog over and over will be beneficial to it. I was watching the show on Ch4 i think its called a dogs home or something...anywho there was a dog who on the outside was lovely but had serious resource guarding issues and was a known attacker (but had NOT broke the skin) this was was then rehomed twice and brought back due to this issue and as far as i know is still currently in the kennels. That is not a rehomable dog to me. Why is time/money being spent on a dog that very very few people will be able to offer a home to?

 

[{97702}]

Yup I agree entirely Equi! That is also why I struggle with the Dogs Trust and other charities who state they will ‘never put a (physically) healthy dog down’ - highly commendable IF they actually thought of the dogs psychological needs as well ☹️

 

[Equi]

And that is the issue with most of them...they think too much with heart not head. I highly commend anyone who works in rescue and charity, but so many people just don't get that sometimes not all animals can be saved.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Most farming in these islands doesn't even operate in the way that necessitates these types of dogs. And in this litigious society too...

 

[Equi]

Quite true! But to the majority a "dog is a dog" and all it needs is love. In boarding kennels its quite clear who has been worked/trained or who has been pampered. A pet wire haired german pointer comes most to mind who made my life hell for a week. That thing needed his entire kennel wood panelled because he kept bouncing and getting his hind paws over the top door, between doors, under doors, through doors..if a part was blocked off he would find a way to get caught somewhere else. When caught if you went near his head you would have no skin left, but he had to be held up to relase him without chopping his legs off. no dog ever had or ever since had done that! He would not be caught all just play bouncing and running away so walkies was a 30min affair on lunch break otherwise he didn't get out and only to be walked by the more senior staff because he would just bolt all around even on a chain...he did not know walk.. Mouthing was a constant occurrence...and this was a 2yo dog. We called his owner and said he needed to leave but his "mummy" just said he was full of life and love and meant no harm and she had never walked him on a lead because she had a big garden for him to run in but noone else could take him...so he had to stay. He was not allowed back. Then there was sweet little wanda the beagle who would sit just far enough from the kennel door that when you opened it she didn't need to move back, she would walk out to the toilet area, then back in when asked. For walkies she would sit and wait for the lead then walk to heal always with her tail in the air then sit to get the lead off again and literally turn around with a smile on her face. I literally don't think i have ever met a nicer dog than her.

 

[cbmcts]

I have a dog who will bite and mean it (broken skin) is very guardy of me and the house and just to add to the problem is huge and strong with it. i adore him but in a lot of ways he is a liability and a nightmare. He's a rescue (and knowing his history I can understand why he is the way he is) but he was and still is a lot of work. His saving grace is that he lunges and bites to get people to back off when he feels threatened, or thinks I'm in danger. Still not acceptable but if he went back for another go at someone I think that's when I'd have to say enough - he'd be too dangerous to keep because he could kill someone. He's a 55kg Rottie Mastiff cross so breeding is part of it. I'm not saying that either of those breeds are inherently dangerous, I've had fantastic rotties who were as good as gold and know lovely mastiffs but both breeds are hard headed, independent and can be territorial. When those traits are mismanaged, the result is not pretty.

This dog is managed within an inch of his life all the time. In the three years I've had him, I trained and trained so that his obedience is top notch so control is there all the time. He's shut away with 95% of visitors, there's only a few people who are allowed in the house with him alone and only me and his dog walker (long time friend, also a trainer) walk him. Going to the vet is a nightmare - vets hurt him so he's not a fan - he wears a headcollar, harness and a full muzzle for control and it's still rare that a vet can get near him without him chucking himself at him. He's had a lot of vet visits as it took a while to diagnose his auto immune disease, not helped by the fact that he is so difficult to handle there. We tried xanax, the dog would be stoned out of his tiny mind until the vet appeared. I considered taking the xanax myself tbf

In saying all that, he is trainable, intelligent and great fun with those he trusts. He adores children and for such a big clumsy dog is incredibly gentle with them. He has no chase instinct (squirrels run under his nose and he doesn't even look up) is bullied by my 5kg cat and next doors cat too without retaliation from him. He makes me laugh every day. His history is that he belonged to a family from a pup to 18 months and was sent to rescue as they moved and couldn't keep him. I suspect that he was always a bit sharp and was going through the very challenging teenage Kevin stage, possibly getting over protective of the children. The family had done a fair bit of training with him as he knew all his commands, walked nicely on a lead ewtc. He was rehomed to an older couple who had rotts from the rescue previously but unknown to anybody at the time, he was starting to suffer with dementia and we think the dog took the brunt of the confusion and inconsistency that causes. About 6 months in, the rescue started getting angry, rambling messages about the dog left overnight on their voicemail but when they called back the man would say all was fine. Eventually as the situation worsened, they went and collected the dog - as a breed rescue, they rehomed nationwide and the dog was a few hundred miles away - and discovered just how bad the owners health was. It appears that the dog had a bad time of it in that he got a hammering on occasion (an MRI when I had him showed multiple previously broken ribs for instance) and food was a valuable resource to him, he would kill for it.

I took him on knowing that it was the Last Chance Saloon, if I couldn't manage him he would be PTS. I did wonder, more than once in the first few months, what the hell I was thinking!!! But he so wants to be a good dog and as I said, I adore him. He can never be trusted but with a lot of training, he will now go behind me if someone he doesn't know approaches him full on rather then go on the defensive. It's my job to make sure that he's not put in a situation where he feels the need to defend himself or me and that means that I have to intervene to avoid those. I am that person who is saying 'don't touch the dog please' and after that 'back off NOW' as some people just will not listen. Food guarding is better ie I walk past him when he's eating now but he is the only dog I've ever had that I can't take something from his mouth even now. I was so delighted the first time he growled at the vet (sounds daft I know) instead of lunging at him. That took around 18 months...small victories and all that.

Would I do it again? Possibly because it has been so rewarding seeing a tense, defensive, frightened dog relax and show his personality as an overgrown clown. He has got me into obedience training and he has taught me a lot. But there are still stresses, I am always aware of who or what is around when we're out and if someone was to make me jump by appearing out of nowhere, would he have a pop at them? Really the answer is that it wouldn't be wise to take another dog as reactive as him in today's litigious society...

 

[skinnydipper]

IMO in the case of Clodagh's friend's dog, the "Rescue" have a lot to answer for. The dog is an unsuitable breed for the average family which is unfair to both the dog and the new owners.

In addition, he has been uprooted from everything familiar, suffered a long and stressful journey probably lasting days and is struggling to cope with an alien environment and lifestyle. Too much is being expected of him and too soon. He needs time and space to find his feet and for the family to get a better idea of his needs. I would not be in a rush to drag him out and about, he may appear as if he is coping but he is a strong and powerful dog - if suddenly reacted to something can they hold him? I would not be lulled into a false sense of security by a calm demeanour.

It is early days and, once he has settled in and not under so much pressure, he may turn out to be the perfect family dog - I hope so.

Foreign "rescues" are bringing in dogs that are not equipped to cope with living in the average UK household. They are not "saving" these animals, quite the contrary.

A few weeks ago I learned that a Romanian street dog has been living not far from me for 2 years. I have never seen it. It lives in a corner of the living room, goes into the garden to toilet and then back into its corner. Visitors are asked not to approach it, speak to it or look at it. It is too terrified to go for a walk. What sort of life is that for a dog? It would have been far better to have left it on the streets in Romania. It may not have lived a long life but would have had a better quality of life than it has here.

Can't blame a Foreign Dog Rescue for the AS round the corner, he was from the Dog's Trust. The adopter was unaware of the breed and only found out after adoption by looking on the internet. I was talking to his neighbour recently who referred to the dog as a German Shepherd, I corrected him as to the breed and he said "Oh, well same thing". I think this proves Equi's point - "a dog is a dog" to some people.

I was also talking to the owner of the AS a few weeks ago. He said the dog has started to calm down now that he is getting older (he has had him about 6 years). As well as having to replace and fortify the fence, he was telling me how many sets of blinds he has had to replace due to the dog throwing itself at the window to get to a perceived threat.

I am sure there are success stories and that there are plenty of happy, joyful little dogs who have been adopted from abroad but I wonder what percentage of those imported have behavioural problems that people are struggling to cope with. The rescues are not honest or realistic with potential adopters as to what to expect - if they were there would be far fewer adoptions.

 

[Moobli]

Disaster waiting to happen! I cannot get my head around people in the UK rescuing foreign Livestock Guardian breeds thinking that regular training classes and a walk in the park are going to be suitable for a strong willed, large breed dog bred to protect sheep from bears and wolves. Shepherds in France are now employing Kangals as their native Pyrenean Mountain dogs haven’t proven themselves tough enough to take on the large and determined predators.
Someone reasonably local to me has just imported a Caucasian Shepherd. They have experience of training protection dogs but I’m still left wondering at the wisdom behind the choice of breed.
I’d ask you to implore of this friend to rethink asking a neighbour to let the dog out, as well as not to leave all the dogs together and to make use of the kennel/run until they actually know a bit more of the personality of this dog. Do they know anything of it’s history?

 

[Leo Walker]

The home will be there - they always are, but it is a matter of time and patience. None of which humans have much of when re-homing rescue dogs in my experience. So as I have said above, if this cannot be arranged then PTS.

But they arent there. These marvelous homes prepared to take on an enormous, feral, aggressive dog and that have the right experience and the right set up dont exist in reality, or only exist for a tiny, tiny handful of very lucky dogs.

 

[{97702}]

But they arent there. These marvelous homes prepared to take on an enormous, feral, aggressive dog and that have the right experience and the right set up dont exist in reality, or only exist for a tiny, tiny handful of very lucky dogs.

So you’ve just contradicted yourself in your own post? I don’t really get the point you are trying to make to be honest, the option to PTS if a decent home cannot be found is clearly the right one

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Out of interest, and pondering this today, do you currently have any rescue centres for failed foreign rescue dogs set up in the Uk yet? I dont think we have any this side of the water yet but we do seem to have similar problems with totally unsuitable dogs being offered to totally unsuitable homes from all corners of the world with little or no ongoing backup and support.

From all the bad press and disaster stories my bet would be that is going to be the next animal rescue fad with the begging bowl out, rescuers rescuing the already rescued. Absolute madness - poor dogs

 

[PapaverFollis]

Why would anyone think "I know what I need in my life... a feral Anatolian Shepherd from Bulgaria! Just the ticket." ? Why?

 

[ester]

I do wonder who is paying to ship it back to Bulgaria if they don't keep him.

MrsJ I don't think anything specific but there are rescues who I don't think are importing themselves that seem to end up with imports, I guess having had failed rehomes.

 

[AmyMay]

Out of interest, and pondering this today, do you currently have any rescue centres for failed foreign rescue dogs set up in the Uk yet? I dont think we have any this side of the water yet but we do seem to have similar problems with totally unsuitable dogs being offered to totally unsuitable homes from all corners of the world with little or no ongoing backup and support.

From all the bad press and disaster stories my bet would be that is going to be the next animal rescue fad with the begging bowl out, rescuers rescuing the already rescued. Absolute madness - poor dogs

Not as far as I’m aware. They seem to end up in ‘general’ UK rescues.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Someone reasonably local to me has just imported a Caucasian Shepherd. They have experience of training protection dogs but I’m still left wondering at the wisdom behind the choice of breed.

There isn't any.

 

[Leo Walker]

So you’ve just contradicted yourself in your own post? I don’t really get the point you are trying to make to be honest, the option to PTS if a decent home cannot be found is clearly the right one

No I havent. People saying ludicrous things like rehome this dog just make people think thats an option. Theres more chance of winning the lottery than this dog being successfully rehomed.

 

[{97702}]

No I havent. People saying ludicrous things like rehome this dog just make people think thats an option. Theres more chance of winning the lottery than this dog being successfully rehomed.

It IS an option, regardless of whether you want to recognise that or not. I’ve seen a lot of difficult dogs which have been in rescue for a long time which have been successfully found homes through the patience and dedication of rescue co-ordinators. Whether it is an appropriate option for this dog, who is to say? I can’t judge from the limited amount of knowledge on this thread, nor can anyone else.

Quite honestly if you think that me saying that re-homing is an option is “ludicrous” then I’m afraid you haven’t had much exposure to rescue organisations, and I’m quite amused that you think I’m miraculously going to influence some unknown person into thinking that re-homing might be an option just by posting it on a thread on a social media forum 😂

 

[Moobli]

I’d actually quite like a livestock guardian to keep foxes and out-of-control dogs away, esp at lambing time but in the UK, with the Dangerous Dogs Act, and in Scotland, with responsible access, it’s never going to happen.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yes, that's what they're for, though. Dogs like this shouldn't ever be used for 'personal protection' in the same way as random people shouldn't be allowed to own high powered firearms.

 

[cbmcts]

Well to be fair, there are idiots like me who will take a 'difficult' dog so the homes do exist. But even I wouldn't take an imported dog with minimal background information and without solid rescue back up.

When I was looking for a dog I spoke to someone I know well who is involved with breed rescue. They had nothing suitable (wouldn't eat the cat, even if provoked being the main criteria) but put word out in the rescue world for me. A national rescue got back to them and mentioned that they had this dog, listed all his issues, did my friend think that I'd be suitable, be able to cope? I contacted the rescue who were very upfront and we talked for a couple of hours and I went away to think about it. Once I decided to take him, it was agreed that if it didn't work out for whatever reason I would have him PTS. Going back into kennels for a third time was not an option for this dog. They knew him from the first time he came in and hoped that the effects of his 9 months in the other home could be reversed. Without that agreement in place I wouldn't have taken him.

But, unlike Clodagh's friend I am careful, very, very careful with him even 3 years on and knowing him inside out. The first year I had him, the only time he was unmuzzled and off a lead/longline was at training. I am the one keeping people away from him despite being 90% sure that there will now be a warning growl rather than an immediate lunge and bite. Why take the chance? I sure as hell wasn't putting him under any stress such as forcing him to interact with visitors in the first 6 months, let alone in the first 6 weeks. He wore a houseline for months so triggers such as touching his collar, going near a food bowl ( even empty!) or the sofa could be trained out without conflict. Funnily enough, the things that other dogs didn't like such as ear cleaning and nail clipping were a doddle as long as a treat is on offer But he is not a dog you can bully or dominate - unless you're a cat - he is hard headed enough that he will defend himself if he thinks anyone is going to try that so he will never be 'safe' because his tolerance is so low. It's my choice to have him so my responsibility to keep him and others safe. Really that simple.

I'm actually quite proud of him despite him being most people's idea of a nightmare. Yes, he's hard work, walks aren't a relaxing stroll, my garden is like Fort Knox but he has come so far. He'll always be mortifying at the vets and food will always be a flashpoint but he's so relaxed now and really tries to be a good dog.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I do wonder who is paying to ship it back to Bulgaria if they don't keep him.

Sounds like a guilt trip to me.

 

[dree]

There's also the added problem that most dogs that come from abroad have either been in "kill" rescues, or roaming the streets. If in a rescue, then the only thing they have known is the catcher's noose....the dogs are treated horrifically. Yet they (rescue in uk) pick on one dog.....rescue it....and leave behind the others. I've always said that most of these dogs are highly unpredictable because they have very little contact with humans, and that contact is usually bad. And why pick that one dog? Why not put them all to sleep humanely rather than bring one over here and leave the others to their horrific conditions? The other problem is that most of them are feral.....there are about 100 foreign dogs running about in the uk and no-one can catch them. I rather suspect that this dog, with his strength, would not be contained by a kennel and run.

It's an awful situation. If he were mine, he would be straight to the vets.....sod the rescue. They've already let the dog down.....it has no wish to live in a house, or even in the garden. It wants a job, and if it doesn't find it, someone or something (one of their dogs?) will pay the price. Perhaps you could point out to your friend that her dogs are at a very high risk of being killed.....as is her neighbour. What an awful situation.

 

[dree]

Could you inform your local council re: DDA and this dog? You could do it anonomously? A bit sneaky, I know.