Worrying.. what could this have been?

[Ellietotz]

Sorry, another question!

I recently posted about my saddle issues for a saddle that my fitter said fit my horse and a different saddle fitter who recently pointed out how it didn't fit at all so I have potentially got 3 years of damage from it being on her shoulder with a pressure point of a couple of cms caused by overflocking of the front teardrop type gusset which she didn't need.

I've sold the saddle, she had physio who did find the shoulder pain and she was very short and stiff on the front.

I've had a new saddle which is due to be fitted properly next week and I've only ridden in it 4 times for only half an hour a time over the space of 2 weeks. It seems to fit well to me but needs flocking in front but obviously I'm not qualified to know for sure if it's right so I've been keeping it limited until it's sorted.

All in all, she has had about 7 weeks in very light work, only a short free school once a week after having the first two weeks off.

The last few days I've been unable to get her to do her front leg stretches as she didn't want to straighten her knee and allow the stretch to go through the leg/shoulder etc but yesterday I tried it again holding her pastern instead as I was holding the fetlock which I'm sure I used to do and she stretched both legs really well.

Today, about half an hour into the ride, we were just walking along on a semi stoney track and she just buckled down on her front knees. No injury thankfully and she got back up and carried on as quickly as she went down, she didn't panic or anything. I looked back to see if there was anything obvious, the part of the track did slope down very slightly just on that spot but this sort of thing has never happened in the 4 years I've had her and she can usually go over any ground without tripping at all and at any pace.

She is 15 years old now and I'm worrying there could be more going on.

Would you say this was a one off? The still recovering saddle injury? Something else?

I feel like it's one thing after the other with this mare.

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Sorry I can't help on the buckling issue, but I'd say don't ride in that saddle until the fitter has been.

It's possible that a combination of vet and saddle fitter will be needed.

 

[Ellietotz]

Sorry I can't help on the buckling issue, but I'd say don't ride in that saddle until the fitter has been.

It's possible that a combination of vet and saddle fitter will be needed.

Thank you.
I won't use it again until he has been on Wednesday. Vet is due tomorrow to do their vaccs so I will ask him about it too.
I'm just so worried that it isn't just a one off as it's so unlike her.

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Thank you.
I won't use it again until he has been on Wednesday. Vet is due tomorrow to do their vaccs so I will ask him about it too.
I'm just so worried that it isn't just a one off as it's so unlike her.

I'm hoping that it'll be down to muscle wastage, etc.

Will keep all bits tightly crossed.

 

[Ellietotz]

I'm hoping that it'll be down to muscle wastage, etc.

Will keep all bits tightly crossed.

Thank you. I hope it is just due to that and it possibly feeling odd now that the saddle isn't on her shoulder. Perhaps she was used to compensating for 3 years and now its messed up her balance slightly. I just hope I'm not making excuses for something worse.

 

[Wheels]

If the previous saddle had never fitted and you've been using it for 3 years then surely your physio would have noticed issues along the way?

Your current issue may be entirely unrelated to saddle fit

Horses can change shape massively over 3 years

Horses in pain for whatever reason can lose and change topline very quickly.

What I'm saying is that saddle fit can be blamed for many issues and indeed, the saddle may be causing issues or exacerbating other issues but may not be the sole cause so you are right to involve your vet.

In the mean time I wouldn't right until your had a lameness check and the saddle has been fitted

Good luck

 

[chocolategirl]

Sorry, another question!

I recently posted about my saddle issues for a saddle that my fitter said fit my horse and a different saddle fitter who recently pointed out how it didn't fit at all so I have potentially got 3 years of damage from it being on her shoulder with a pressure point of a couple of cms caused by overflocking of the front teardrop type gusset which she didn't need.

I've sold the saddle, she had physio who did find the shoulder pain and she was very short and stiff on the front.

I've had a new saddle which is due to be fitted properly next week and I've only ridden in it 4 times for only half an hour a time over the space of 2 weeks. It seems to fit well to me but needs flocking in front but obviously I'm not qualified to know for sure if it's right so I've been keeping it limited until it's sorted.

All in all, she has had about 7 weeks in very light work, only a short free school once a week after having the first two weeks off.

The last few days I've been unable to get her to do her front leg stretches as she didn't want to straighten her knee and allow the stretch to go through the leg/shoulder etc but yesterday I tried it again holding her pastern instead as I was holding the fetlock which I'm sure I used to do and she stretched both legs really well.

Today, about half an hour into the ride, we were just walking along on a semi stoney track and she just buckled down on her front knees. No injury thankfully and she got back up and carried on as quickly as she went down, she didn't panic or anything. I looked back to see if there was anything obvious, the part of the track did slope down very slightly just on that spot but this sort of thing has never happened in the 4 years I've had her and she can usually go over any ground without tripping at all and at any pace.

She is 15 years old now and I'm worrying there could be more going on.

Would you say this was a one off? The still recovering saddle injury? Something else?

I feel like it's one thing after the other with this mare.

Thank you in advance for your help.

When my mare started doing this at around 12, I started investigations, and after all the usual, I took her to a specialist orthopaedic vet, she was diagnosed with facet joint degeneration of the neck. Probably isn’t that, but the neck is something people rarely consider, and yet it’s thought that up to 50% of horses have some degree of degeneration of it?‍

 

[Ellietotz]

If the previous saddle had never fitted and you've been using it for 3 years then surely your physio would have noticed issues along the way?

Your current issue may be entirely unrelated to saddle fit

Horses can change shape massively over 3 years

Horses in pain for whatever reason can lose and change topline very quickly.

What I'm saying is that saddle fit can be blamed for many issues and indeed, the saddle may be causing issues or exacerbating other issues but may not be the sole cause so you are right to involve your vet.

In the mean time I wouldn't right until your had a lameness check and the saddle has been fitted

Good luck

Thank you.

The physios had initially found some discomfort around the saddle area but this was at the time before she was treated as a PSSM type and she had discomfort basically all over. The physios weren't really sure why at the time and knew the saddle was regularly checked so ruled it out.
Since I started using a sheepskin half pad about 10 months a go, I haven't had physio and she was seemingly going well. She had built up a lot of muscle and a really good topline which must have made the saddle fit worse as it is shaped more for horses with dips behind their shoulder which she doesn't have. That's when it started noticeably slipping forwards and she did have the dips behind initially at the start due to muscle wastage, again before being treated as a PSSM type but her shape has changed loads since all the protein etc. The only reason why this was picked up now was because I had a second opinion saddle fitter out who said it wasn't the right shape at all for her and I noticed, before I stopped riding 7 weeks a go, that she was not wanting the saddle to go on and she had started tripping occasionally which is unlike her again.
Sorry, I've rambled! ? But that is the main gist of it. I'm just not sure where to turn next, if it's still potentially muscular or if she needs xrays, it literally could be anything from her knees to her back and I'm not sure my insurance covers it all anymore.

 

[Ellietotz]

When my mare started doing this at around 12, I started investigations, and after all the usual, I took her to a specialist orthopaedic vet, she was diagnosed with facet joint degeneration of the neck. Probably isn’t that, but the neck is something people rarely consider, and yet it’s thought that up to 50% of horses have some degree of degeneration of it?‍

Thank you. That's interesting, did she have any symptoms?

 

[Goldenstar]

You need to get the vet .
There is something wrong with your horse and only a vet can diagnose what that is .

 

[chocolategirl]

Thank you. That's interesting, did she have any symptoms?

She'd felt a little heavier in my hand than normal, but as she'd been jumping clear round BE100's, I didn't give it too much concern. It was only after she had a 2 month break at the end of the season, and I started hacking her before Xmas, that started tripping a bit, then she stumbled a couple of times which was a red flag for me. I was convinced it was a problem behind the saddle, but no, it was in the neck. Horses are very good at compensating for pain and discomfort, so unfortunately, they often create further problems by changing their way of going to help them tolerate what they're feeling ?

 

[Nudibranch]

How is foot balance? Is she shod? What are her soles like? Is it possible she could have stepped on a big/sharp stone?
Not saying it isn't something else but it's always sensible to start in the hoof and work up.

 

[Wheels]

Thank you.

The physios had initially found some discomfort around the saddle area but this was at the time before she was treated as a PSSM type and she had discomfort basically all over. The physios weren't really sure why at the time and knew the saddle was regularly checked so ruled it out.
Since I started using a sheepskin half pad about 10 months a go, I haven't had physio and she was seemingly going well. She had built up a lot of muscle and a really good topline which must have made the saddle fit worse as it is shaped more for horses with dips behind their shoulder which she doesn't have. That's when it started noticeably slipping forwards and she did have the dips behind initially at the start due to muscle wastage, again before being treated as a PSSM type but her shape has changed loads since all the protein etc. The only reason why this was picked up now was because I had a second opinion saddle fitter out who said it wasn't the right shape at all for her and I noticed, before I stopped riding 7 weeks a go, that she was not wanting the saddle to go on and she had started tripping occasionally which is unlike her again.
Sorry, I've rambled! ? But that is the main gist of it. I'm just not sure where to turn next, if it's still potentially muscular or if she needs xrays, it literally could be anything from her knees to her back and I'm not sure my insurance covers it all anymore.

I totally sympathise, I have one under investigations at the minute, sorting feet first which may or may not solve the problem.

I think that if your horses muscling improved with saddle 1 then it must have been at least a good fit. It sounds like she has changed shape over the 3 years and so dont be too hard on saddle fitter no. 1. There is no way that saddle fitter no 2 can say that your original saddle never fitted given the length of time and your horses various health issues along the way.

Where to now?

Vet before you do anything else, lameness workup, then physio if required then saddle fit.

I hope your new saddle fits after all of that because she could change shape again if you resolve pain issues

 

[Ellietotz]

How is foot balance? Is she shod? What are her soles like? Is it possible she could have stepped on a big/sharp stone?
Not saying it isn't something else but it's always sensible to start in the hoof and work up.

Yes, she is shod and the path we were on did have some small stones on but there might have been a bigger one I missed. She is "flat footed" the farrier says but she is usually very good on her feet so I feel like it would be odd for her to go right down with something like this. Saying that, sometimes when I've done trotting poles on the lunge, she quite often nearly stacks it the first couple of times but would never knock a jump down.

 

[Ellietotz]

I totally sympathise, I have one under investigations at the minute, sorting feet first which may or may not solve the problem.

I think that if your horses muscling improved with saddle 1 then it must have been at least a good fit. It sounds like she has changed shape over the 3 years and so dont be too hard on saddle fitter no. 1. There is no way that saddle fitter no 2 can say that your original saddle never fitted given the length of time and your horses various health issues along the way.

Where to now?

Vet before you do anything else, lameness workup, then physio if required then saddle fit.

I hope your new saddle fits after all of that because she could change shape again if you resolve pain issues

Thank you.

Unfortunately, I have pictures of the saddle on her of the front, back etc that I took a few times over the years as I was always unsure about it and I can now see in the pictures from even two years a go that it never fit. The thick sheepskin half pad I feel gave her the chance to build up the muscle. It wasn't the tree shape that was the issue as such but the extra teardrop gusset that was overflocked and constantly pressing and it was the only part of the front panel that touched her. She is quite a standard shape in terms of front panel so hopefully this saddle will work.

I've got the vet coming to do vaccs today so I will see if they have some extra time to look at her.

She doesn't seem to have any unusual muscle wastage and has built up evenly.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Ellietotz]

The vet found heat in her knees, mostly on the right one which was the one she had been mostly lame on after the physio a couple of weeks back. He said her knees do look abnormal and he noticed it first out of everything. He also said she was uncomfortable in the SI joint again but this was treated November 2018 with no difference but the xrays did show very slight osteoarthritis in her fetlocks if I remember correctly and he says this could now be what is making her SI hurt. So he thinks it's likely arthritis in her knees as well. I just feel beyond devastated and I don't know what to do now. We can do xrays and confirm it and have them medicated but do I risk even continuing to ride? She is long and croup high anyway so there will always be more pressure on the front than normal. I'm not sure my insurance will even cover it and I can't afford it. I can get her on a recommended joint supplement to alleviate any pain and retire her if this is the only option too.
I can't stop crying.

 

[Wheels]

I am really sorry to hear that

What treatment did the vet suggest? Did you discuss exercising? A lot of horses with arthritis seem to benefit from something.

Sorry it wasn't better news

 

[Ellietotz]

I am really sorry to hear that

What treatment did the vet suggest? Did you discuss exercising? A lot of horses with arthritis seem to benefit from something.

Sorry it wasn't better news

He said keep her ticking over with light free schooling or lunging at the moment. He suggested boswellia, glucosamine and chondroitin if I wanted to go down that route too but I'm not sure how I'll even know if she can be ridden again. I don't want to cause her any more pain. ?

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Oh bugger. I'm sorry lass.

 

[ihatework]

I’m sorry for the news, part and parcel of managing teenage horses I’m afraid.

I’d X-ray to assess the damage, give a course of Cartrophen and consider some bute to help. They are generally best ticking over in some light hacking work once they start to get arthritic

 

[Ellietotz]

I’m sorry for the news, part and parcel of managing teenage horses I’m afraid.

I’d X-ray to assess the damage, give a course of Cartrophen and consider some bute to help. They are generally best ticking over in some light hacking work once they start to get arthritic

Thank you.

I've looked at my insurance and it looks like she won't be covered but I will ask anyway to make sure. The vet is going to email me in a couple days with a plan i.e a couple of hours doing an examination, xrays if required and treatment. I just don't know how I'll pay for it all and if we go down that route, what if she goes down again while riding? My head is all over the place.

 

[Ellietotz]

Oh bugger. I'm sorry lass.

Thank you.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Ellietotz, I'm so sorry to read your update. I was hoping it was just one of those freak things. I guess see what your vet says on further examination. If you have to pay yourself ask the same question about every bit of investigation or treatment; does this investigation drastically alter the treatment? Does this treatment drastically alter the prognosis?

Hugs and tea for you mostly though. X

 

[Tiddlypom]

I just don't know how I'll pay for it all and if we go down that route, what if she goes down again while riding? My head is all over the place.

I’m really sorry to hear about your mare.

Don’t take on more expense than you can afford, but if you can run to a basic workup and some x rays to find out what‘s what, you may find that the vet suggests popping her on bute to allow you to keep her in light work.

If that’s what you want.

My neds are not insured, and my vet is very helpful at designing treatment strategies that are not silly expensive.

 

[Ellietotz]

Ellietotz, I'm so sorry to read your update. I was hoping it was just one of those freak things. I guess see what your vet says on further examination. If you have to pay yourself ask the same question about every bit of investigation or treatment; does this investigation drastically alter the treatment? Does this treatment drastically alter the prognosis?

Hugs and tea for you mostly though. X

Thank you.
I did too but it could have been worse I guess.
That's a good idea, thank you. I'm just debating if it's worth asking him to medicate the knees straight away but without the xrays we don't know for sure or if it will change the outcome much or if retirement or semi-retirement will still be the only options. It makes sense why she didn't want to walk or trot on the road the other day. Poor girly.
I just don't know where to go from here, she's meant to be having her saddle fitted on Wednesday. I just don't know what to do with that or her shoes or anything now. I think hoof boots will help lessen the impact going forwards but if I'm not riding anymore then is it worth getting those now? I just don't know.

 

[Ellietotz]

I’m really sorry to hear about your mare.

Don’t take on more expense than you can afford, but if you can run to a basic workup and some x rays to find out what‘s what, you may find that the vet suggests popping her on bute to allow you to keep her in light work.

If that’s what you want.

My neds are not insured, and my vet is very helpful at designing treatment strategies that are not silly expensive.

Thank you.

I would love to keep her going in ridden work as she loves going out for a gallop but if that all has to stop, I don't know how much she would enjoy it, she isn't the ploddy type. She only gets ridden 3 or 4 times a week in summer really so maybe 3-4 hours a week total and winter once or twice for an hour to an hour and a half per ride so not much I don't think. It's hard to know what is the best thing for her.

My vet has said boswellia may be worth trying too in the meantime to help alleviate some of the pain so I will try that too. He recommended Nutraquin which has boswellia in but I've opted for the Natural Horse Supplies Mobility GBM one to try as it's slightly lower in cost so will help establish if it works or not at least, I hope.

 

[Ellietotz]

Should I take her shoes off and get boots instead? Anything that will make her more comfortable.

 

[PeterNatt]

As horses get older they are more likely to stumble so get her some Knee Boots just in case. I use Jeffries Knee Boots. Also as above get the vet, saddler and farrier to check her out. She may be better off shod with rolled front shoes.

 

[ponyparty]

So sorry to hear this Ellietotz. Sending a virtual hug.

I second (or third?) boswellia, I used it on Bruce quite successfully. I just ordered it off Amazon, think the Equicure powder usually came in most cost effective.

I would definitely have a frank discussion with the vet, explaining you don't have unlimited funds (if you're sure insurance definitely won't pay out - may be worth a phone call just to check though?). Maybe give them a budget of what you could spend on workup and treatment, and devise a plan from there. Lots of horses have arthritis and benefit from being in light work, so don't lose hope yet.

Re: shoes, I'd probably wait until you've have the lameness work up before making any decisions on that. See what the vet says (although I know many are against taking shoes off). It would probably be best for the vet to see her moving in shoes, so as to rule out any red herring being thrown up by her having them taken off and feeling her feet a bit. If you do take them off, I'd definitely boot her at first unless on a very soft surface, as any pain from her feet will alter her way of going and may cause further problems as she compensates for this. But there are MUCH more knowledgeable people on here than I, on this topic

Keep us posted; hoping for the best possible outcome for you.

 

[Ellietotz]

So sorry to hear this Ellietotz. Sending a virtual hug.

I second (or third?) boswellia, I used it on Bruce quite successfully. I just ordered it off Amazon, think the Equicure powder usually came in most cost effective.

I would definitely have a frank discussion with the vet, explaining you don't have unlimited funds (if you're sure insurance definitely won't pay out - may be worth a phone call just to check though?). Maybe give them a budget of what you could spend on workup and treatment, and devise a plan from there. Lots of horses have arthritis and benefit from being in light work, so don't lose hope yet.

Re: shoes, I'd probably wait until you've have the lameness work up before making any decisions on that. See what the vet says (although I know many are against taking shoes off). It would probably be best for the vet to see her moving in shoes, so as to rule out any red herring being thrown up by her having them taken off and feeling her feet a bit. If you do take them off, I'd definitely boot her at first unless on a very soft surface, as any pain from her feet will alter her way of going and may cause further problems as she compensates for this. But there are MUCH more knowledgeable people on here than I, on this topic

Keep us posted; hoping for the best possible outcome for you.

Thank you.

I have sent an email to the insurance company as I'd like it in writing if it is covered but I feel it wont be as they have already excluded osteoarthritis in her hind legs due to the slight sign of it on previous xrays and I'm not sure if they'd consider it as an illness which isn't covered for horses 15 or over. They've also excluded anything that could be caused by her conformation so this essentially now could be anything.

Technically, I have no budget, it all just adds onto my debt that accrued from her investigations last year. So at this rate, it's never going down.

The farrier is due in two weeks time too and I feel like this is all happening so quickly and I'm not sure what decisions to make regarding removing them or not.

Should I just get the xrays done or shall I try supplementing and transitioning to hoofboots to start with? I know money shouldn't be a factor but it is and it makes it harder not knowing if it's worth it or not if the outcome is essentially the same.