Worsening behaviour?

Cherryblossom

Cherryblossom

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Sorry this is long- I want to give as much info as possible, as I know there's a lot of experienced dog people on here, who may spot the the cause of the problem where I can't!

I own a 2 1/2 yo terrier Milo who we adopted at 1yo- we know he was an abuse case, but the charity signed a confidentiality agreement with the police, so we don't know the extent of it. Initially he was very reactive and would growl and bark at any men coming into the house, and lots of them on the street, as well as being poorly socialised. We went to training classes and used a behaviouralist for some one on one time, and have got him to the point of pretty good for a terrier!

6 months ago we adopted another rescue- a 5 month old bitch. The 2 of them get on really well in general, and she is much more submissive than him. He'll sometimes chase her away from her food, despite not actually wanting it himself, but generally things are very harmonious.

I'm now pregnant and exhausted, so have been going to bed several hours before my husband. M tends to come and join me if we forget to close a door, and then my husband would come fetch him and take him to bed. After a few weeks of this, M started to growl when being taken away, so we stopped him coming up at all, and the few times he did get up, used treats to lure him out rather than manufacture potential conflict.

My problem is that now he has started to growl at other times; particularly if he comes and lies on the sofa with one person and then the other person comes and sits beside him and tries to stroke him. He's always been allowed on the sofa, so it's not like the bed where we were doing something he didn't like. So far we've just backed off as I don't want to train the growl out of him, I'd much rather have a warning. Otherwise he is still the same sweet loving dog, full of energy and happy to play, wrestle, be stroked- so I really don't think it's a pain thing, just a territory one. He's never snapped or bitten, but I absolutely believe that if we pushed it, he would.

The new dog is bigger, sheds lots and isn't 100% toilet trained, so she isn't allowed on sofas or upstairs.... could he have take the fact that he is, to mean this is his kingdom? I don't know if whether he's jealous of the other dog, or his dominance over her has gone to his head, or what it is, but I'm worried that his behaviour is escalating, and just want a happy harmonious household! So what do we do? Do we ignore bad behaviour, or should I send him away if he growls? Should he be put on restricted access to the house like she is? I'm willing to do whatever it takes, but would be very gutted to miss out on doggy cuddles completely!
 
Ill be interested in answers to this from experienced terrier people. Im having similar issues with my now 4 yr old jrt. He has a lovely temperament and character and is a real softy but recently he has become a bit growly if one of the other dogs comes too close to what he sees as his spot on the sofa. Never growls at humans, we can move him, take his food away etc but if one of the other dogs tries it, he gets very huffy. He is the youngest of the 3, others are springers and he has been with us since a pup so no reason for it as far as I can see. I wont stand for it and if I catch him in the act he gets removed to the floor and put back in his place. In fairness, the older springer wont stand for it either and if she growls back at him he backs down and goes into hiding behind the sofa still huffing and puffing, but humiliated. Im a little worried in case it should escalate whilst Im not around but not sure of the best way to tackle it. He is extremely sociable on walks, loves all people and other dogs, it just seems to be a territory thing indoors.
 
I have the same with my sealyham x terrier now 4 , if he's sitting on sofa dozjng or next to my husband and I stroke him he will growl at me , first time it happened I told him off verbally & he did it more I then went to remove him from the sofa & he went for me. Now if in that situation I tend not to approach him in all other situations other than if he has food he is a lovely friendly dog.
 
isnt this resource guarding rather than being territorial (same thing on reflection!)? resource guarding between dog and person is somewhat easier to deal with than resource guarding between dogs. between dogs I would be careful because yes, it could escalate. my two are both allowed on the couch with me but I would not allow it if it was a problem in anyway.
 
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No responsible trainer or behaviour consultant will advise on an aggression case without seeing the dog concerned, it is only too easy to make it worse. Do the charity have a behaviourist you can call on? Alternatively some insurers will pay for an APBC registered behaviourist, on a vet referral (which you should do anyway in case there is an underlying physiological reason).
 
I agree with JillA. I think that it would be best to get a behaviourist out to see your dog and they can assess. There could be a number of reasons he's displaying the behaviour and you can only really advise when you see it!

If he were mine (and I don't pretend to have any great knowledge so please ignore if you want!), I wouldn't let him on the bed/sofa until I'd had some advice from a professional. I would just keep him on the floor as it seems to be the sofa/bed that's causing the problem. That doesn't mean it needs to be forever, just until you've got to the bottom of it.

Hope it works out :)
 
I'd get a trainer in to help you now before it gets worse
I'd also attach a long line and leave it on in the house so you could remove him from the sofa without getting too close to avoid the 'I growl and I get the sofa' reward
 
SusieT said:
I'd get a trainer in to help you now before it gets worse
I'd also attach a long line and leave it on in the house so you could remove him from the sofa without getting too close to avoid the 'I growl and I get the sofa' reward
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Agree with SusieT, don't ignore the growl but a long line would be a good way to get him off. I also wouldn't let him on it at all.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I haven't got a trainer out yet because he does it so intermittently; maybe once a week tops, and has never relaxed enough when we have company to settle down, so I dont think I could recreate it. We do still do behaviour classes, with the aim of starting agility, and the trainer said he's never seen a terrier so good at being handled for the 'health check' practice, so he's not all bad! I'll talk to the trainer at the next session and see what they recommend. Otherwise the long line is a great idea, and I think you're probably all correct about banning sofa time.... at least when there's the two of us home, as he has never done it when there's just one (and I'd probably end up on the floor with him just so I could get cuddles!!)

Arrgghh.... it's so frustrating after working so hard to help him becoming a well rounded individual!
 
When you have the baby he will probably guard it or be jealous of it, so I would try to get this sorted ASAP - as I know you are. good luck.
 
Typical Terrier behaviour IMO, I wouldnt allow him on the sofa at all unless invited, go back to basics, you have to be very black or white, give them an inch and they will take a mile.
 
No sofa and a solid place command to be reinforced with a house line. Definitely before the baby arrives. Every time he growls and you back off, the behaviour is reinforced and there is every chance this will leak into other areas.

Abuse case or not...black and white rules will be much fairer on everyone in the household. It all sounds a bit confused right now.
 
I would stop any getting on the sofa or the bed growling is not acceptable terriers are known for this and you need to stop it now as it will get worse, my jrt is only allowed on the sofa if invited and she only gets on our bed very occasionally she doesn't sleep in our bed every night, unfortunately terriers will try and push their luck if they think they can and the then become dominant you have to put this dog back in the pack which in a household is at the bottom, and I would do it now before your baby comes because he sounds like his quite dominant over you already if his growling at your husband when he tries to go to bed.
 
My terrier x rescue has only growled/barked aggressively at a human twice. On both occasions he was protecting me/child.

Can you think back to when this started? Was it closer to your pregnancy/the new dog? And does he growl at you or just your OH? TBH I'd be surprised if the growling at humans is related to another dog that isn't in the same room or allowed in the same places.

Having said that he does like to be on my lap at the same time as the child. He protects the child but also knows that he is allowed close at similar times (eg not when eating!)
 
Okay, new hardline dog-parenting starting today! We went to our training class yesterday and he was the absolute star- didn't put a paw out of place, and lots of people commenting on how good he is.... if only they knew! I asked the trainer there about it, but he just laughed and said 'that's terriers for you', so I'll not be relying on him. I do know a very good guy so I'm going to email him today to see if he thinks coming and doing a home visit would benefit in these situations.

GirlFriday; it's all started in the last two months.... so co-incides with new dog and pregnancy (just need to start building a house to complete the madness!) I do wonder if having someone to be dominant to has awoken his megalomaniac tendencies! We're not Cesar Milan type people but come from farms, so have a pragmatic view of dogs. Plus when we first got him we gave him very firm boundaries because we had so much to work through- as he's improved, those have been relaxed (although we still expect good behaviour) so I suspect it may be a combination of factors.

He has growled at me once or twice, but mostly my OH- he's very much my dog... cries the whole time I'm on horseback, doesn't like me paying attention to other dogs.... if he was human he'd be a controlling little dictator!
 
I do tend to agree with those that say its fairly typical terrier behaviour. Ive never owned a terrier before and can see a definite distinction between my springers and the jack in their general behaviour. It is knowing the best way to tackle it though, Im sure it would be all too easy to end up with an out of control terrierist so I think firm boundaries are an absolute must, for everyones sanity! The trouble is theyre so darned cute its really easy to let small misdemeanours slip. I shall remind myself of this when ours is having a "small man syndrome" moment :)
 
Cherryblossom said:
Okay, new hardline dog-parenting starting today! We went to our training class yesterday and he was the absolute star- didn't put a paw out of place, and lots of people commenting on how good he is.... if only they knew! I asked the trainer there about it, but he just laughed and said 'that's terriers for you', so I'll not be relying on him. I do know a very good guy so I'm going to email him today to see if he thinks coming and doing a home visit would benefit in these situations.

GirlFriday; it's all started in the last two months.... so co-incides with new dog and pregnancy (just need to start building a house to complete the madness!) I do wonder if having someone to be dominant to has awoken his megalomaniac tendencies! We're not Cesar Milan type people but come from farms, so have a pragmatic view of dogs. Plus when we first got him we gave him very firm boundaries because we had so much to work through- as he's improved, those have been relaxed (although we still expect good behaviour) so I suspect it may be a combination of factors.

He has growled at me once or twice, but mostly my OH- he's very much my dog... cries the whole time I'm on horseback, doesn't like me paying attention to other dogs.... if he was human he'd be a controlling little dictator!
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This problem isnt isolated to terriers. I have had the same thing with a rescue springer spaniel. Rescue likes to be near me but would growl at my other male dog if he came close, also on occasions my other half if he was approaching the bed and the dog was next to it. They pick up on very subtle changes and he probably feels a little insecure so you need to reaffirm the boundaries/discipline.

What we did was every time the rescue started his growling (he has bitten the other dog before in the situation) we told him to get out, not to his bed but to get out of the room we were in, go downstairs if we are upstairs, outside if we are in - you get the jist. He learnt very quickly that it wasnt his job to be like that and there was no need for it. He soon relaxed, because all he wants from us is to be with us. By sending him away on his own really made a huge difference. We found when he was allowed to re enter the room he would do it quietly and settle down alot quicker. We never physically dragged him out I must add, just firm commands and dont get between the dog and the door so they can easily exit without worrying about passing around you.

He is still very much my dog and is protective but he will quietly watch rather than being so reactive and insecure!
 
Its called resource gaurding.
Hes decided its a resource he wants/needs to keep.
Same with the food...its a resource and he isnt willing to let another dog have it...even when not hungry.
Ie hes been a possessive little s**t and its not acceptable behaviour...esp in a house that will soon have a small child and toys etc at dog level in it.

Id advise no more couch for him as this behaviour can escalate and speak to a behaviourist about his issues before they get worse.

Addressed early these things can be fixed reasonably easily...but a good behaviourist will be training you how to react to the dog and your behaviour as much as training the dog himself.
In time he may be able to return to old pattern ie sit on the couch if given permission and will get down immediately if anyone asks but given your about to have a tiny child in the house this behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud now.
 
TBH I'm much more with RupertTB on this. My rehomed one just wants to be near and I don;t want there to be a 'naughty step' where he doesn't want to go. So, for 'really bad' behaviour I send him straight out of the room. Only for a few seconds but it gets the message across that some behaviour (including couch sitting becasue frankly it makes us both happy) is socially acceptable and he gets to be near and some behaviour results in being sent away. I rarely have to do it now and actually he has calmed down about being separated when eg I go to the shower/out to work over the same period.

If you change the couch rules now you'll likely confuse and upset him which might make behaviour worse. He won't associate it with the growling unless you send him out when he growls.

FWIW mine does definitely guard us, you could call us a resource if you wish. He has growled at someone (homeless, probably with mental issues) who started harassing myself and child in the street but was ignoring dog and also barked at some people who helped carry buggy with child in becasue he didn't like strangers 'walking off' (down some difficult stairs) with buggy/child. Sounds a bit like this one is 'guarding' preggers owner against her OH. Am not expert but I'd probably go with an 'it's OK' relaxed pat if he looks nervous (I used to do this about helicopters that set mine off!) and, if that doesn't stop it a sharp 'no', escalating to the 'get out'. Obviously once he knows growling at the OH not acceptable you go straight to the 'out'.

But I listened to my little child (who has a nursery that occasionally use time outs) who said 'but if you send him out he will be angry and sad and he won't learn' which also has some merit in it as a view. Try to praise when terrier is being nice with OH too.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Very few dogs are protecting humans, they're protecting themselves and humans happen to be there.
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I agree. I put that badly, he isnt protecting in this situation far from it. In any situation my dogs are told to not respond, they should trust me because its my job to deal with it. It is not their job to decide what happens, generally they dont stress about alot. But in a previous life I do think the rescue has been in a violent household, not necessarily towards him :-(
 
Some dogs behave like this no matter what their background. I'll repeat that those dogs who will make ground/cover distance/go out of their way to 'protect' a human aren't that common. Resource guarding and reacting to what they perceive as a threat or annoyance, is.
Confusion is much more likely to arise in dogs like this when they are allowed on the sofa 'sometimes' but not other times.
They are not human and we are expecting them to make a pretty big link and giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Some dogs can distinguish but a lot of dogs can't and it is unfair to expect them to do so.
 
GirlFriday said:
TBH I'm much more with RupertTB on this. My rehomed one just wants to be near and I don;t want there to be a 'naughty step' where he doesn't want to go. So, for 'really bad' behaviour I send him straight out of the room. Only for a few seconds but it gets the message across that some behaviour (including couch sitting becasue frankly it makes us both happy) is socially acceptable and he gets to be near and some behaviour results in being sent away. I rarely have to do it now and actually he has calmed down about being separated when eg I go to the shower/out to work over the same period.

If you change the couch rules now you'll likely confuse and upset him which might make behaviour worse. He won't associate it with the growling unless you send him out when he growls.

FWIW mine does definitely guard us, you could call us a resource if you wish. He has growled at someone (homeless, probably with mental issues) who started harassing myself and child in the street but was ignoring dog and also barked at some people who helped carry buggy with child in becasue he didn't like strangers 'walking off' (down some difficult stairs) with buggy/child. Sounds a bit like this one is 'guarding' preggers owner against her OH. Am not expert but I'd probably go with an 'it's OK' relaxed pat if he looks nervous (I used to do this about helicopters that set mine off!) and, if that doesn't stop it a sharp 'no', escalating to the 'get out'. Obviously once he knows growling at the OH not acceptable you go straight to the 'out'.

But I listened to my little child (who has a nursery that occasionally use time outs) who said 'but if you send him out he will be angry and sad and he won't learn' which also has some merit in it as a view. Try to praise when terrier is being nice with OH too.
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:-) he sounds very like mine! I do have to reassure him alot still even after 3 years, they do pick up on things and when things change its easy for the dog to misunderstand the intentions and react in a way you dont want. You just have to go back and say this is not acceptable but this is, and its OK - you dont need to worry becasue its my job (human) to look after you!
 
CorvusCorax said:
Confusion is much more likely to arise in dogs like this when they are allowed on the sofa 'sometimes' but not other times.
They are not human and we are expecting them to make a pretty big link and giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Some dogs can distinguish but a lot of dogs can't and it is unfair to expect them to do so.
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Agree to a large extent. Hence suggesting that everyone suggesting OP's terrier suddenly has a change of rules might not be completely helpful. Terrier won't know why he suddenly isn't allowed up.

Fortunately mine turns out to have some terrier smarts so there are some things he knows are allowed to happen at certain times. But to start with consistency (both of the rules, and of their enforcement) is helpful I think.
 
Rupertthebear said:
:-) he sounds very like mine! I do have to reassure him alot still even after 3 years, they do pick up on things and when things change its easy for the dog to misunderstand the intentions and react in a way you dont want. You just have to go back and say this is not acceptable but this is, and its OK - you dont need to worry becasue its my job (human) to look after you!
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:-) Yes. I was playing a pretend game with family and kids the other day and my poor dog got quite upset at one of the adults 'crying' and required a lot of reassurance!
 
GirlFriday said:
Agree to a large extent. Hence suggesting that everyone suggesting OP's terrier suddenly has a change of rules might not be completely helpful. Terrier won't know why he suddenly isn't allowed up.

Fortunately mine turns out to have some terrier smarts so there are some things he knows are allowed to happen at certain times. But to start with consistency (both of the rules, and of their enforcement) is helpful I think.
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I think consistency is much fairer where dogs are concerned. JMO :)

Dogs learn new things all the time, they cope.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I think consistency is much fairer where dogs are concerned. JMO :)

Dogs learn new things all the time, they cope.
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I agree with this, dogs need bounderies, they need a routine, they are not humans and dogs dont lie in their beds thinking how hard done by they are, reward good behaviour, but dogs need to know what is acceptable and unacceptable.

If any of my foster or my own dogs come to that started to growl when another human came close or another dog they would be sent out of the room and only invited back on my say so, I dont get any problems with mine following these rules, it works.
 
To be clear my dog understands that he isn't allowed on laps at meal times (nor does he get treats then) but he /is/ allowed on laps on the sofa or if I'm just sitting in the dining room. It is entirely consistent and he is smart enough to understand that (he never asks to come up at meal times, he does ask at other times).

But to anyone who thinks dogs can't feel hard done by on occasion: you've obviously never lived with a dachshund!

I was actually making the point that for a dog who is used to coming up onto sofas suddenly changing the rule so they can't is inconsistent!

I think we just have different ideas of what consistency looks like but the same preference for it.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Some dogs behave like this no matter what their background. I'll repeat that those dogs who will make ground/cover distance/go out of their way to 'protect' a human aren't that common. Resource guarding and reacting to what they perceive as a threat or annoyance, is.
Confusion is much more likely to arise in dogs like this when they are allowed on the sofa 'sometimes' but not other times.
They are not human and we are expecting them to make a pretty big link and giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Some dogs can distinguish but a lot of dogs can't and it is unfair to expect them to do so.
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Totally agree with this.

I would not allow on sofa, bed etc (a light house line for removal if necessary without getting into conflict is a good idea). I would also seek the help of your trainer or a good behaviourist and in the meantime employ the NILIF (nothing in life is free) approach. These links give you info on how to implement it ...

http://www.humanesociety.org/animal..._free.html?referrer=https://www.google.co.uk/

http://pawsnmotiondogtraining.com/nilif-can-work/
 
JillA said:
No responsible trainer or behaviour consultant will advise on an aggression case without seeing the dog concerned, it is only too easy to make it worse. Do the charity have a behaviourist you can call on? Alternatively some insurers will pay for an APBC registered behaviourist, on a vet referral (which you should do anyway in case there is an underlying physiological reason).
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No responsible trainer or behaviour consultant with recommend anything that is likely to increase conflict.
I am both and would recommend the person the dog is sitting with gets up and removes themselves so there is nothing left to growl about.
 
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