Would you buy pssm2?

[angel7]

Thoughts on this ad?

9mth old stunning shire x Hanoverian colt For Sale in York, England | Preloved
Foal looks very nice.

Is this the future of vetting procedures? Would you risk it?

 

[I'm Dun]

No, I wouldnt take one for free. Its an awful disease. Not enough is known about testing and treating it yet either. I dont know a single horse who tested positive for PSSM type 2 who has remained in a consistent level of work. Many sadly end up PTS at young ages.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I can never see the point of knowingly buying trouble

 

[Tiddlypom]

I thought that there are no reliable peer reviewed tests for PSSM2?

Diagnosis is on symptoms, a -ve test for PSSM1 plus a confirmatory muscle biopsy?

Though I would not knowingly take on a PSSM horse.

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't knowingly buy possible trouble but I'm equally sure there are thousands of low grade PSSM horses working fine without their owners ever even realising.

The test the horse has had for type 2 is not peer reviewed and not reliable.
.

 

[SEL]

My friend has one with P8 that shows significantly raised muscle enzymes on blood tests despite not being in work yet. Quirky action and spooky too. P8 is popping up on the German PSSM boards in some very problematic warmbloods.

So I'd avoid irrespective of whether those tests are peer reviewed

 

[angel7]

This is my thoughts too, how many are bimbling along fine without a test?
Without widespread testing we dont know the prevalence if it.

 

[ycbm]

. I dont know a single horse who tested positive for PSSM type 2 who has remained in a consistent level of work. Many sadly end up PTS at young ages.

I believe that 25% of completely asymptomatic horses carry the genes tested for. And few people test for type 2 until they already have serious issues, so it will seem that it always causes serous issues, when it doesn't.
.

 

[katastrophykat]

Good on the seller for her honesty, but yes- I’d avoid, and he’s bang on my stamp!

 

[SEL]

I'm really struggling to post a link off my phone but if you Google warmbloods and PSSM 2 you should come up with an article showing that the big German breed societies are supporting the research with CAG (the lab doing the genetic tests). The more input the better really because then we'll get a view as to what genetics we can help with diet, exercise - or what we need to breed out

 

[cauda equina]

This is my thoughts too, how many are bimbling along fine without a test?
Without widespread testing we dont know the prevalence if it.

Indeed
If only symptomatic horses are tested it's natural to assume that the presence of PSSM genes will inevitably cause problems, when this may not be the case at all

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Knowing what a friend is going through with hers at the minute, not a chance.

 

[rextherobber]

I think the future will involve testing breeding stock. NF breeders have already started ( albeit only type 1) I agree many horses could have it but are not symptomatic and therefore not tested, but I wonder how many switched off or "quirky" horses do have it, but the symptoms are dismissed as character type? I have a PSSM2 horse, no way would I knowingly buy another, but that's the crux of it. Testing takes time, and horses sell quickly, so you have to trust to luck. @catembi can testify how well that can work... I would absolutely support the breeders who do test and go on to remove positive stock from their breeding programmes.

 

[TwyfordM]

If he was free I’d take a punt. But I wouldn’t pay out
any money for him.

It’s a gamble at the end of the day, you could end up with a nice horse for nothing, or no horse and a large vet bill

 

[missmatch]

As the owner with a cob with confirmed myopathy (muscle biopsy). I would never willingly buy a horse with this. He’s a walking vet bill, in fact vets are out again today. He is never in consistent anything especially work and nothing seems to stick. Find something that helps, it triggers something else or it stops working. He is happy as confirmed by his many health professionals but he costs every penny I have plus those I don’t. i Loved him long before the myopathy was diagnosed and will continue to do so. However the vets and I do have an agreed cut off if you will.
Many myopathies are heartbreak with legs.

 

[maya2008]

It’s taking a very big chance - I have a pssm mare (type 2) who was manageable as a younger horse, but is struggling as a late teenager. It is always about the exercise - enough, the right type… yet she took me SJ to success I haven’t ever had on others when she was young, and has been a foot perfect first ridden for my daughter. She is not one for the faint hearted though and could not be sold. I would pts if I could no longer keep her or if she could no longer work (as it is only possible to keep her comfortable if she is in enough work - any less and she turns into a sad, pain-filled skeleton of a horse). We were debating pts this winter as she was not happy, but are giving it a last ditch attempt of much more work with a slightly bigger rider, to see if we can get her more comfortable. She is not ready to give up yet, so it is worth a try.

Our story is probably one of the better ones though…

 

[Widgeon]

Indeed. If only symptomatic horses are tested it's natural to assume that the presence of PSSM genes will inevitably cause problems, when this may not be the case at all

The test the horse has had for type 2 is not peer reviewed and not reliable. .

I feel very sorry for the breeder. We obviously need reliable tests and widespread testing to further understanding. I was under the impression that some breeds like quarter horses are more likely to have it than others - is there no regular testing of breeding stock for these breeds? Are there better tests available in the USA?

 

[ycbm]

There's no approved test for type 2 yet anywhere. The trouble seems to me to be that type 2 is currently pretty much defined as "any muscle myopathy that's type 1 negative", and it's actually very likely to be more than one disease.

It's been around for centuries. In the days of working horses pulling cabs and having Sunday off it was known as Monday Morning Disease.

 

[Ali27]

I would never buy a horse with PSSM! My friend went through hell with her poor mare who had PSSM 2 and eventually was pts. I’m looking at buying a youngster this year and will have it tested for PSSM.

 

[TheMule]

Whilst I admire her honesty, to sell him as a colt is neglecting a basic responsibility and I'm not sure I agree entirely with selling him at all, even with a problem fully disclosed. Most buyers won’t test so he could easily be sold on for a decent profit without disclosure of the issues.

 

[Nudibranch]

I wouldn't take him for free, as someone else has already said.
I had a similar colt and the issues we had were awful. He was pts at 7. And he wasn't even diagnosed - just suspected.

 

[Alibear]

No

 

[Nasicus]

£2.5k for a PSSM2 Positive 9 month old colt? £2500 isn't 'take your chances' money in my opinion :/

 

[I'm Dun]

This is my thoughts too, how many are bimbling along fine without a test?
Without widespread testing we dont know the prevalence if it.

None. Type 2 PSSM suffers dont bimble along. The symptoms would be noticeable. They may well be misdiagnosed, but you would be more than aware you had a big issue. Type 1s do bimble along. I see them alot. I've got 3 friends who had theirs tested after I suggested it and all were positive

 

[I'm Dun]

I believe that 25% of completely asymptomatic horses carry the genes tested for. And few people test for type 2 until they already have serious issues, so it will seem that it always causes serous issues, when it doesn't.
.

Until the research is finished and a reliable test is found no one knows. But the symptoms of type 2 arent something you would miss. Type 1 yes, easily missed by lots of people and some do seem to show very few signs, but not type 2.

 

[ycbm]

None. Type 2 PSSM suffers dont bimble along. The symptoms would be noticeable. They may well be misdiagnosed, but you would be more than aware you had a big issue. Type 1s do bimble along. I see them alot. I've got 3 friends who had theirs tested after I suggested it and all were positive

But the symptoms of type 2 arent something you would miss. Type 1 yes, easily missed by lots of people and some do seem to show very few signs, but not type 2.

If only symptomatic horses are currently being tested - and almost nobody except a researcher tests an asymptomatic horse so to all intents and purposes this is currently ALL tested horses - you can't make these statements correctly.
.

 

[ycbm]

ID, you are reading about a lot of badly affected PSSM2 horses.

But the reason you are reading about them on Facebook is because they are badly affected. If they weren't badly affected, people wouldn't be writing about them.

This makes it seem as though PSSM 2 always affects sufferers badly. I don't belive this is true.

ETA you could do with checking out the genes for, for example schizophrenia. Lots of people carry them, not all are triggered. In identical twins, for example, both twins with schizophrenia genes become schzophrenic in only half the cases, and not everyone who does develop schizophrenia will get it badly enough to end up sectioned for it. Most diseases show a spectrum from "not much" to "horrific" in how badly they affect any one victim. At the moment I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that PSSM 2 is not one of them.
.

 

[Anna Ern]

I thought that there are no reliable peer reviewed tests for PSSM2?

Diagnosis is on symptoms, a -ve test for PSSM1 plus a confirmatory muscle biopsy?

Though I would not knowingly take on a PSSM horse.

Sadly a muscle biopsy will only be positive if the animal is actually
having an episode and it will not tell you the variant to help with management

 

[Anna Ern]

ID, you are reading about a lot of badly affected PSSM2 horses.

But the reason you are reading about them on Facebook is because they are badly affected. If they weren't badly affected, people wouldn't be writing about them.

This makes it seem as though PSSM 2 always affects sufferers badly. I don't belive this is true.

ETA you could do with checking out the genes for, for example schizophrenia. Lots of people carry them, not all are triggered. In identical twins, for example, both twins with schizophrenia genes become schzophrenic in only half the cases, and not everyone who does develop schizophrenia will get it badly enough to end up sectioned for it. Most diseases show a spectrum from "not much" to "horrific" in how badly they affect any one victim. At the moment I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that PSSM 2 is not one of them.
.

Many horses do not become symptomatic until later in life when something triggers symptoms.
My ID was triggered when he was moved to different pasture grazing, was put on a diet of whole oats and Alfa A ( introduced gradually as was the increase in work) , stabled for 8 hours a day and although I had a very fit horse, he became unlevel and struggled to canter in the arena but could outside. Could manage a single jump but not a grid. £10k worth of vet fees, surgery, injections and rehab and vets still flummoxed as became totally unable to manage more than 50 yards of canter. He had been fine for two years prior to this. My other horse became symptomatic after box rest for grade4 wind surgery. Both tested positive via hair dna for PSSM2 variants and now managed. Sadly so many will not acknowledge the condition but it is a different matter when you have an affected horse. Identification of genetic variants definitely help with management. A peer reviewed test is not required to do this as genetic testing is not in question. What is even sadder is vets failing to recognise PSSM1 which is peer reviewed as they think only race horses tie up!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Sadly a muscle biopsy will only be positive if the animal is actually
having an episode and it will not tell you the variant to help with management

I had heard that that there can be false -ves even with the muscle biopsy (which is one of the reasons that I didn't get it done on my mare), but I had thought that it was because the biopsy had inadvertently missed the affected area.