Would you buy ... Talent vs behaviour

[Sauerkraut]

Hi all,

as the title says. Would you buy a horse because of the talent he has but lacks in other areas?

We are looking at getting the well sought after 148s for BSJuniors. We have found a very talented pony which has just been competing at unaffiliated shows with no BS records yet. 12 years old, so plenty to be achieved with competing wise. Very well schooled in the arena and a dream to jump BUT ...

now the negative points are: He is a grumpy git ! Doesn't like to be touched on his ears, belly etc. He doesn't kick but throws a tantrum. He apparently can only be clipped under sedation. He jogs out hacking, no matter if it's on the way out or home. So any fun rides, hunting etc. might be not the most enjoyable thing to do.

All this means the price tag is mid 4 figures rather than the 10k+ you see advertised.

So. Long story short. Would you ... ?

 

[ihatework]

If I were a confident, competent kid - focussed on showjumping, with help at hand and on a budget then yes.

 

[Cortez]

Depends what you want from a horse. I rode horses for a living until very recently, so it was my job to ride them, not to marry them. Now, and probably for the majority of leisure riders, personality is probably the most important thing. Note I say personality, not temperament: temperament is always important.

 

[shortstuff99]

If he will be a successful BS pony and that is what your children want to do then yes. If they are wanting a nice 'best friend' to just have fun with then probably no.

 

[milliepops]

I'd also consider the potential issues for resale. If you're confident that he can be produced then great, but those tricky personalities need someone else who can overlook the issues if/when outgrown or generally you need to sell on. Would it bother you to look after one like that or might your child prefer a pony that is nice on the ground too?

I have one who is a nightmare to manage at home in different ways and I doubt anyone else would really want her, she's kind of unsellable really. But worth it for me because she's doing the job at a higher level than any of my other horses have reached. We're stuck with each other now (I don't really mind but it is endless faff sorting her out and she's also no fun for other things so I have just accepted we won't do them).

 

[TPO]

Have the negative points been addressed at any point by the current owners?

If they have, for example, investigated/treated for ulcers, have fitting tack, regular dentist, good farrier, use a physical therapist of some description, have spent time training/handling the horse to improve the situation etc all to no avail of be cautious.

If however they just accept the horse as is and work around them then there may be scope for you to improve on the less desirable aspects.

Would the horse be vetted prior to purchase?

 

[Wheels]

As a kid who just wanted to jump then it did not and would not have bothered me, I would have got on anything and loved it

As an adult then temperament, trainability and personality are top of my list!

 

[VRIN]

If the pony has not done BS - only unaffiliated - and is as difficult as you say is he really worth what they are asking? He may have done well at unaffiliated but BS is a different ball game. He will be a difficult sell for them. Even if your child wants to jump they will be missing out on a lot of fun that they could be having with a pony.

 

[oldie48]

For a child, no unless I was confident that the child wouldn't mind having a grumpy git but what would you do with him if his jumping career ended? Would you be happy to keep him?

 

[Am1]

As an adult, I’d want the temperament.

As a child, I would have over looked all that.

How old is your child? Have you discussed with them at all?

 

[tda]

I don't know much about jumping ponies, but for my two pennies worth I'd wonder how he is 12, and expensive with no BS record.
I know everyone expects these ponies to be quirky, but for me (or a child) I wouldn't bother unless said child was uber good and unlikely to be put off by a pony that sounds like hard work

 

[DressageCob]

I'm surprised a talented 12year old pony has no affiliated record. Affiliated jumping is a completely different ball game. The courses are up to height, the spreads are meatier and the courses can be more technical. I say this as someone who competed unaffiliated but was unable to take the step up to affiliated successfully, with my little horse. It was the spreads in particular which caused problems.

Handling issues would be a problem for me. Not so much clipping, but general handling. Any horse of mine has to be safe to be handled by the yard staff because I can only keep horses if they are on full livery because of my work. I think I would miss being able to groom, massage, stroke and interact with my horses if I had ones which were grumpy and didn't like to be touched.

 

[Ambers Echo]

We never affiliated Jenny. Too much faff and I didn't like the atmosphere at BS events. But she had no problem at all with fully to height NSEA qualifying courses and some unaff venues also build to height. So it is possible. Have you been able to see some unaff results?
In answer to your question - it depends on how important competing is to you/your kids.

 

[honetpot]

I would always go for temperament but I bought a pony from a friend as a schoolmaster, which he was ridden, but ....
He didn’t like people
He would bite, the first time I met him he bit me in the field, unprovoked.
He was a devil to load and would try and wipe you off on the loading gates
He would bully the children and step on them until they got older.
It was just a matter of the only time the children had anything to do with him was when they were on board, when he was perfect in just about any situation.
If the child can cope with it ridden and that what they really want to do and it’s the right money it could be OK but be aware you will have to do everything else.
I would ring the localPC DC and see if it’s known locally.

 

[Nari]

Even if I was competitive to a high level (I'm not) then a horse would have to be truly exceptional before I'd willingly put up with a bad temperament. That said the negatives you describe actually wouldn't bother me that much, particularly if the jogging could be improved with some work on manners - none of it sounds dangerous or even particularly nasty. Would I buy him? It would depend on how I felt about him when I saw him, and in your case it would also depend on whether or not I felt he truly would affiliate successfully. But as a general rule I would say all the talent in the world is no use if the temperament is too difficult to train, and there's no fun in a horse that you're scared of handling even if it can perform once you're on it.

 

[Sauerkraut]

Thank you all for your replies. Lots to think about.

I have followed this horse for a while now and know him and the family. He is healthy, gets all the regular checks and is well looked after. He is grumpy but not at all dangerous. All flat ears, no teeth. If my daughter would be scared of him there is no way I’d buy him. She rode him 3 times and is in love. She has a naughty and strong welsh mare currently and schooling wise this one is a dream for her. I’m the one who is looking at outside of the arena really.

He hasn’t got any records because they were more into pony club, local shows and eventing.

He definitely would have no problem with full height BS fences. That’s why we are so tempted.

A good argument is the re selling though. We might ignore the negatives and look purely on talent but the next family might not.

In an ideal world I’d have a huge budget spare to buy a superstar schoolmaster which cruises around the big tracks and takes granny at home for a jolly good hack. We can only dream

 

[Leandy]

If your daughter is really in love with him and not just with the idea of a new pony. If they are otherwise well suited and he is proven to be able to do what you want and your daughter isn't going to be too limited in other fun she can have with him or is truly most focussed on the competition arena, and you can't otherwise afford a similarly performing pony without the quirks, yes I would! I don't think he sounds too bad either so long as he is not actually dangerous in the stable or do handle (which would be an absolute no in a child's pony for me). When I was young I used to encourage my pony to jog and be excitable on hacks because I liked it that way! Maybe your daughter is the same? Have she seen other ponies she hasn't liked? If she is pretty level headed, I'd let her decide this one. Can she put up with the grumps in exchange for the talent? If my child could then I could too.

 

[itroteverywhere]

It's obviously a very personal decision but if it were me I would be thinking that it sounds like a typical ulcery horse and I would want to know why - if it's diet/ management related, it's probably manageable, but if there's an underlying physical issue that is causing it pain or if it's simply a bit of a sensitive soul that gets easily stressed, I would think twice given that it's intended use would be as a competition pony.

If it's the former, you could have a lovely little bargain on your hands I suppose! And you never know, it might even settle out hacking.

The other thing to think about though is whether it's had ulcers before, in case there are insurance exclusions.

 

[Nicnac]

If you get a successful BS record on him, won't matter what he's like to handle, he'll be worth a lot of money. He sounds quite fun!

 

[P.forpony]

Complete opposite to my childhood pony who was a saint on the ground but hellb***h to ride.
Could jump like a stag but such a dirty stopper you never got round a course, broke my nose and had both my front teeth.
Id have bitten your hand off for what you’re describing at that age.

Sensible grownup in me thinks as above it would be interesting to see if quirks improve with a change of management, I’d give it a shot.

 

[SpotsandBays]

If it’s a family friend could you suggest loaning him for a period? Lwvtb? Seeing a new pony and going to ride it is always exciting for children, but actually having It at home and handling it could be a different story.

 

[VRIN]

Have you spoken to the pony club DC?

 

[Shay]

When DD was under 16 we had a tolerably successful run in BS juniors. I have to say pretty much every really good competition pony was a grump of one sort or another. They are top athletes, ultra fit and they do get qwirky. I have to say once she turned 16 and preferred to look to her education rather than the competition circuit we have had horses and ponies who are really very much nicer to deal with and much better all rounders.

I would echo the concerns that at 12 he has no affilliated record at all. You may have found that utterly priceless jewel -an older experienced pony with no points. But you may also have found a grumpy, hard to re sell pony who isn't going to cut it. It really depends on your experience. We had a few like this - including one who was an absolute gem that we took from JD to an international JA. But he was a horror if you didn't know how to manage him and nearly ended up for meat - and that was before we got him! For some years I used to keep the sleeve from a chain store pack of ready meal lasagne pinned over his door as a reminder of where he was going. But we've also had some fails. If you have a 5 or 6 string and can afford to speculate - and a rider with some serious brave pants - go for it. If this is to be your one single go at a BS pony I would say stick to somehting more proven. Kids confidence is easily knocked and BS Juniors can be a very difficult competiton environment.

 

[claret09]

i would say go for it as long as you think he is safe. i have had many tricky ponies and horses over the years. many of mine have only wanted a relationship with one person they trust. once you have that they have all been amazing and very loyal. they have all had great trust in me. my boy - who i have had for almost fourteen years still puts his ears back at people walking past his door and will move his bum towards them as they walk past. but my god he is so much better than he was, he used to lunge over the door from across the stable. he never does that now. out of the stable and at shows he is the sweetest boy everyone loves him and anyone can hold him. he is perfect for vet, farrier etc. he gets cross when people walk away from him. his breeder's father was an old fashioned farmer and he always carried a stick. if they didn't back up they were backed up. that memory still lives with him. he has the memory of an elephant. quiet, consistent, sympathetic handling does work. i generally ignore the bad bits and reward the good. trust is a hugely important factor. if the pony trusts your daughter his behaviour will improve

 

[Britestar]

Whilst I cannot comment on temperament, it does happen.
This pony, 18 months later, won at Olympia, and was sold with an asking price of 50k (and prob got that price!).

 

[HayleyUK]

If you get a successful BS record on him, won't matter what he's like to handle, he'll be worth a lot of money. He sounds quite fun!

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