Would you de-nerve in order to ride ?

[ihatework]

Was the former HHO horse who had the PSD op and then went on to compete at higher levels in BD breaking the rules?

Grey area on the rule interpretation. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever been ‘done’ for it so no precedent set. There will be a number of horses competing upper levels across disciplines who had it done.
I sit on the fence about the ethics of that.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Was the former HHO horse who had the PSD op and then went on to compete at higher levels in BD breaking the rules?

Must have Missed that thread

 

[Wishfilly]

No. Absolutely not under any circumstances!

I saw a horse break a leg racing that had been denerved at the knees and it was horrendous. The poor horse had no clue why it couldn't use the leg even though it was trying! The jockey could also have easily been seriously injured or killed if the horsehad been going over a fence at the time. Luckily it broke on the flat between fences far enough away from one that the jockey got it pulled up before it attempted to jump it.

By the way denerving is completely banned in racing! The horse broke it's leg at a track that takes all fatalities to rhe vet school for the students and this is how the denerving was found out. Turns out the trainer had done it to a few and was subsequently banned from training. (Howard Johnson who trained Inglis Dreaver to win 3x World Hurdles along with Tidal Bay etc to name a small few of his illustriois string so he wasn't exactly a small time trainer!)

That sounds absolutely horrific and terrifying for the poor jockey.

Stories like this would put me off doing it even just for retirement in the field, because imagine if the horse did something similar overnight and wasn't found until morning. I'm sure the chance is low, but it just seems so horrible in my head!

 

[Equi]

It’s not something I’ve ever come across in real life. I knew one on the net who did it and the horse died a few months later after breaking the leg (hairline fracture in the leg but as couldn’t feel enough to stop it still being a twat it fully snapped it)

How is a denerve actually achieved?

 

[redredruby]

I had my old horse denerved (foot) in order to carry on riding. He loved his work and I was unsure at that stage whether I could turn him away to be retired (he would have had to be denerved to be retired as well).

At the time it was presented to me by the vet as a sensible and logical solution and to be fair it did mean some more fun rides together and then a 4 year retirement at grass.

I doubt I would do it again though - it felt like the best option at the time.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Never for any reason, even to give a pain free retirement. If denerving is needed to be pain free, at that stage I would be going for PTS.

 

[Baywonder]

No, I wouldn't have it done.

My old boy loved his work - especially jumping. When he became lame in his early 20's, my vet carried out a nerve block as part of his investigations. I was absolutely heartbroken to see my old boy floating across the ground like a 5 year old, completely pain free. My vet offered de-nerving, which I refused, and his condition was managed initially with Bute, followed by Devil's Claw to see him through his final years.

 

[twiggy2]

I wouldn't de nerve for any reason

 

[Polos Mum]

It's a real consideration for mine with a bone cyst in his foot at the moment. The vet has asked 3 maybe 4 times whether I'm sure I don't want it done. I'm reassured to read this that I'm not being old fashioned in my refusal of their suggested treatment.
I would love to ride him again but not at that cost.

 

[scats]

Nope, not for me. I am happy to retire a horse to the field if need be, or put to sleep if that’s the right thing to do.

 

[splashgirl45]

i wouldnt even for retirement to the field.. i wouldnt ride on bute or danilon either , but would give some if retired if i thought it would give them a happy retirement. i have nerve damage in one leg , the result of an operation for my hip, its a horrible feeling and the number of times i have almost fallen because that foot didnt clear the ground as high as i thought it had, i know why so am careful but horses wont be aware so could do more damage IMO

 

[bouncing_ball]

Grey area on the rule interpretation. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever been ‘done’ for it so no precedent set. There will be a number of horses competing upper levels across disciplines who had it done.
I sit on the fence about the ethics of that.

I run the PSD Discussion forum to on Facebook. You can compete BD / BE / BS after PSD nerve is cut as it’s a minor branch nerve but not after any main nerve is cut. Rules changed a number of years back.

Think FEI wording is must not be a detestable loss on sensation anywhere on the horse if poked with pen like instrument. Should flinch. And still do externally after PSD surgery.

One of the issues with PSD is if ligament damaged can stay thickened with scar tissue. The joint junction has small nerve and ligament in confined space which can cause pain. Cutting this small branch nerve may stop pain.

Think it depends, my late PSD old horse came sound to do two BD regionals without surgery. So I guess sometimes ligament can return to normal size, other times scar tissue might not. But I don’t think it’s ethically clear cut.

 

[ihatework]

Yes I have had a long conversation with Andy Bathe about the subject!

 

[bouncing_ball]

Yes I have had a long conversation with Andy Bathe about the subject!

Then you should know you can legally compete BE / BS / BD post PSD surgery when it used to be against rules. Your original post implied it wasn’t black and white.

 

[Buster2020]

Nope not for any reason I heard of to many horror story’s of horse bricking there leg after having it done. The FEI has banned horses from competitions that had that done. It banned in nearly every competitions anyway. People lie about it and compete there horse and hope they don’t get caught. I have a cousin that works in the FEI that’s how I now.

 

[Aperchristmas]

Personally I wouldn't - even ignoring the ethics, riding a horse without sensation in part of a limb would make me quite nervous. I would perhaps consider it on a retired horse, but I'm not sure I'd actually do it.

I say this as someone who did use bute/danilon to lightly hack my arthritic horse. This was encouraged by the vet who felt it would help manage his condition and be good for him mentally. At the time he was showing mostly mild stiffness and not every day - we would only give him pain relief on stiffer days. I completely understand why others wouldn't do this, but we felt it was best for our boy.

 

[ruth83]

PSD I think I would yes.

If I could de-nerve the specific section of the ligament in my ankle which causes me serious issues, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Perhaps it would be available if I went private, but consultant I have seen wanted to go for a procedure which sounded scarily similar in its approach to pin firing. Now that I am NOT allowing near me, nor would I allow near my horse.

 

[ShowJumperBeckii]

Mine has psd so more inflammation rather than tear/injury and was told by de nerving it wouldn’t remove the inflammation and then continuing to work on legs he cant feel the inflammation will just get worse and end up causing so much more damage!
Our vet wouldn’t recommend the surgery anyway only a very small amount of cases would they use it for!

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Ethics aside, I'm not sure I'd ever feel completely safe riding a horse with any part of it's anatomy denerved.
From an ethical standpoint I can't imagine I would ever be able to put a horse through it to be honest. It doesn't seem right to me.

 

[SEL]

I've only known 1 horse with a de nerved foot and it died after an abscess wasn't spotted and the infection travelled up her leg. She was in foal so both were lost. Really horrible and the owner was obviously devastated. Back then I didn't even know it was a "thing" & the ethics didn't sit right with me even before the mare got her infection.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would not denerve anything for any reason.
.

I don't think I would either

 

[Goldenstar]

Feet are unethical imo .
PSD surgery is more of a grey area but I would be unlikely to do these on uneconomic grounds and it puts the horse through a lot and rarely I ever does it have a good outcome .

 

[Laurac13]

My vet was keen to do the neurectomy surgery on merlin when he acutely tore his proximal suspensory ligament 3 years ago, he was insured at the time but it didn’t sit well with me ethically so I declined. As well as the tear his swelling was plus 70%, after 9 months rehab with box rest, hand walking, laser therapy, homeopathy tablets (which I’m sure made a huge difference) he recovered 100% and vet said on an ultra sound scan you’d never know he had had the injury. From what I remember my vet said the neurectomy operation was really routine and he does them weekly, so there are a lot of horses out there who have had the operation and I don’t think it leaves a scar so you’d never know in many cases that a horse had been through this. I hear there are a lot of horses competing at high level who have had suspensories de-nerved. I understand everyone and every horse is different but for me it didn’t sit well as a quicker fix.

 

[AandK]

PSD possibly. But the foot, nope, not even to retire to the field.

 

[DiNozzo]

I read some of this yesterday and was talking to my daughter who had surgery a little while ago on her ankle.

They cut through the nerve to insert a metal plate and as a result, she couldn't feel the front half of her foot. She said she wouldn't dare sit on a horse that had had similar because of the effects it had on her proprioception. There weren't enough sensors to tell her brain where he foot was, so stairs, uneven ground, slippy ground areas, were all really tricky for her.

Luckily some of the damage has re-grown?/healed and there is now only a small patch she can't feel so it did improve, but not enough for her to trust a horse that had it done.

 

[Laafet]

It also says that it achieves its effect by atrophy of the muscular part of the suspensory ligament. That muscle must be there for a reason, and that's why I won't do it. I also won't do it because of the number which I have heard of either not working or later, and often not much later, breaking down again.

The ligament cutting kissing spines operation is also believed to work largely by denerving. I won't ever have that done again either, unless they start to publish some decent studies of long term results.
.

Mine has done 9 years of competing from Prelim to Med post PSD N & F. It saved his life. It wasn't his fault he'd been thrashed as a hunt hireling and was broken by the age of 8, we gave him a chance and he is incredibly happy. I know it isn't like that for all but for him it made a huge difference. And it is not against BD rules

 

[Courbette]

I think my old share horse was de-nerved. It made me very uncomfortable to not know what had been done to him and he still didn't seem sound so I gave up the loan as I didn't have all the facts to be sure I wasn't hurting him

 

[tiga71]

I couldn't do it for either ridden work or retirement.