Would you de-nerve in order to ride ?

[Gingerwitch]

There is a very thought provoking thread running in club house at the mo, which is about the ethics of riding a horse (light work) on bute or danilion.
I just wish it was running in tack room as i am finding this really interesting.
So moving this to the next level and not wanting to take anything from the current thread, whom would consider de-nerving an ethical thing to do, now we are not talking de-nerve to keep in a pain free retirement, we are talking about a de-nerve in order to ride.
All i know is that if you de-never you have to double/triple check that limb to make sure nothing is wrong as the horse cannot feel it and on occasion the nerves can re-attach.

 

[Beachbabe]

Personally I wouldn't do it. Not for riding. There are a million ways the horse can lead a happy and fulfilled life without being ridden. I heard a tale recently that a horse was lame with arthritis for a year, his feet were falling apart and he was on continual bute and still ridden. When it reached the stage the pony couldn't be ridden, that was it, pts. No arguments, no alternative offered, no retirement. I am still reeling tbh

 

[Silver Clouds]

It used to be *relatively* common, but that was mainly because a) horses were expected to do a 'job' to earn their keep, and b) there weren't other treatments available. It is far more common to keep a retired horse (of whatever age) nowadays, and there are also many more analgesics and anti inflammatory agents available. As the o/p stated, there are risks of serious injury if a horse cannot feel part of it's body, So I would feel de-nerving purely to be able to keep a horse in work (so if it would be able to live a comfortable retirement without de-nerving) to be unacceptable ethically.

 

[Michen]

No I don't THINK I would but I still think you never know until you are in that situation. I always said I'd never do a colic surgery, and in that moment chose to have it done over PTS.

I sort of think as well if a horse has to be retired completely (aka can't even hack quietly a few times a week), is it really even sound enough to be in the field long term... so perhaps in that situation I would.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I was always told never to ride a de-nerved horse. I think I'll stick with that.

 

[Wishfilly]

If it was just to keep a horse in work, then I think it's unethical. I'm not sure I'd want to do it to keep a horse sound in retirement either. AFIAK, there are risks associated with the operation and I think it has a reasonably high failure rate, too. Beyond that, I'd be so worried about the horse sustaining another injury that it wouldn't be able to feel, that I don't think I'd feel able to ride a de-nerved horse.

 

[milliepops]

not denerve a foot, no.
The neurectomy done for PSD I probably wouldn't be too bothered by provided the overall prognosis was decent.

 

[ihatework]

Foot no
PSD yes

 

[Silver Clouds]

not denerve a foot, no.
The neurectomy done for PSD I probably wouldn't be too bothered by provided the overall prognosis was decent.

Good point MP, for some reason I'd stupidly assumed the OP was just referring to de-nerving feet (having reread the post I can see it wasn't specified!).

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

NO!

 

[Wheels]

Foot no
PSD yes

Not something I have thought much about but interested to know why people would denerve in relation to PSD but not something in the foot

 

[milliepops]

because its a very specific area affected for the PSD op, and tbf you can see and feel the structures well enough to see if they are deteriorating after treatment. A denerved foot is a very different thing in my mind, I would not want to have a horse that didn't know if it trot on a nail or something etc.

 

[milliepops]

this article sums up the differences well I think
https://dressagetoday.com/horse-health-/neurectomy-29122

 

[Wheels]

Does the whole foot become numb then?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Foot no
PSD yes

This.

Denerving the feet is an old practice. My parents had agreed to buy me a competition pony, subject to vet, this would be in about 1970. The vet rang us up in a bit of a huff after the PPE as he had discovered that the pony had been denerved. He thought we should have asked the owners beforehand whether the pony had been denerved, but we didn’t even know that was a procedure that could be done, let alone ask about it ?‍.

Presumably the owners hoped that the vet wouldn’t notice...

Vet told us to steer clear.

 

[ycbm]

I would not denerve anything for any reason.
.

 

[Wheels]

this article sums up the differences well I think
https://dressagetoday.com/horse-health-/neurectomy-29122

Interesting. I wonder how many horses are out there competing after being denerved!!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

No. Absolutely not under any circumstances!

I saw a horse break a leg racing that had been denerved at the knees and it was horrendous. The poor horse had no clue why it couldn't use the leg even though it was trying! The jockey could also have easily been seriously injured or killed if the horsehad been going over a fence at the time. Luckily it broke on the flat between fences far enough away from one that the jockey got it pulled up before it attempted to jump it.

By the way denerving is completely banned in racing! The horse broke it's leg at a track that takes all fatalities to rhe vet school for the students and this is how the denerving was found out. Turns out the trainer had done it to a few and was subsequently banned from training. (Howard Johnson who trained Inglis Dreaver to win 3x World Hurdles along with Tidal Bay etc to name a small few of his illustriois string so he wasn't exactly a small time trainer!)

 

[milliepops]

Interesting. I wonder how many horses are out there competing after being denerved!!

i think the PSD version - quite a few. probably (hopefully!!) less denerved feet. i think the PSD one is less problematic for me because as that article mentioned it has a therapeutic effect as well as just taking away the feeling.

IIRC it's the back half of the foot that loses sensation, frog and heels sort of area. including the insertion of the DDFT I think so that's a higher risk of injury without the horse showing pain from the injury.

 

[ycbm]

i think the PSD one is less problematic for me because as that article mentioned it has a therapeutic effect as well as just taking away the feeling.

It also says that it achieves its effect by atrophy of the muscular part of the suspensory ligament. That muscle must be there for a reason, and that's why I won't do it. I also won't do it because of the number which I have heard of either not working or later, and often not much later, breaking down again.

The ligament cutting kissing spines operation is also believed to work largely by denerving. I won't ever have that done again either, unless they start to publish some decent studies of long term results.
.

 

[milliepops]

It also says that it achieves its effect by atrophy of the muscular part of the suspensory ligament. That muscle must be there for a reason, and that's why I won't do it. I also won't do it because of the number which I have heard of either not working or later, and often not much later, breaking down again.

.

yeah I used to think I absolutely never would - I think the reality for me would depend on the overall prognosis from the vet and the individual horse & circumstances. like most things I don't think there's a one size fits all solution.

 

[TPO]

Feet no and I said no when a vet offered it as a "solution".

PSD I'm not sure. I don't know enough about it to make an informed decision. If I was faced with it then I'd have to research as best as I could and make a decision factoring that information along with the horse in question.

I do feel very uneasy with the concept of denerving anything and even medicating to keep in work*.

*excluding situations where low level regular work is beneficial to the horse. I know people who have medicated and increased workload and what is asked of the horses and I really don't think that is ethical.

 

[DabDab]

Interesting. I wonder how many horses are out there competing after being denerved!!

I've known of a couple that were competed in affiliated competition after having a psd type denerve. But they both broke down in another way relatively soon after the op (one was youngster at the start of its BE career and had already had other niggles beforehand, so was no great surprise)

ETA: for me personally no I wouldn't for a riding horse, but might consider a psd denerve for a more comfortable retirement.

 

[milliepops]

I do feel very uneasy with the concept of denerving anything and even medicating to keep in work*.

*excluding situations where low level regular work is beneficial to the horse. I know people who have medicated and increased workload and what is asked of the horses and I really don't think that is ethical.

it's so personal and so dependent on the individual and their set up, isn't it. Cos I personally would feel less happy about buting a horse to ride it (cos I'd be thinking that horse is sort of towards the end of its working days and I probably could provide the movement in a different way, e.g. retirement turnout, which I have available for almost zero cost)
than I would medicating or operating on a younger horse showing good promise, at the peak of its ridden career. but both are iffy ethically to me, i guess it's a complicated mix of selfish and selfless thoughts there!

(that's not a judgement on the people who do bute and ride their horses to keep them mobile, I know it works for many. it's just not what I would choose).

 

[TPO]

it's so personal and so dependent on the individual and their set up, isn't it. Cos I personally would feel less happy about buting a horse to ride it (cos I'd be thinking that horse is sort of towards the end of its working days and I probably could provide the movement in a different way, e.g. retirement turnout, which I have available for almost zero cost)
than I would medicating or operating on a younger horse showing good promise, at the peak of its ridden career. but both are iffy ethically to me, i guess it's a complicated mix of selfish and selfless thoughts there!

(that's not a judgement on the people who do bute and ride their horses to keep them mobile, I know it works for many. it's just not what I would choose).

100% agree

I now question why to everything and dont take vet advice at face value having been seriously burnt before. Personally I'd rather give more bute and retire something out that needs movement then pts when the time was right than low dose and keep riding for my enjoyment. Different if it was a rehab situ with a good prognosis but I dont think I personally would ride a horse sore with arthritis (or anything degenerative and not able to be reversed) just because I could.

I'm a lot more pragmatic these days and while I've never been one to keep a horse going just because I "loved" it I'm now a lot more likely to consider pts sooner. Unfortunately some horses have a lot wrong for one reason or another and it doesnt seem fair to keep going just because you can. Sorry, bit of a detour OP

 

[AUB]

It’s not allowed to compete on a denerved horse where I’m at.
I would probably pts.

 

[MrsMozartleto]

No, I wouldn't.

Thought it was going to be an option with my first horse and I wouldn't have gone for it. I don't remember all the papers etc. at the time that I came across, but the outcome was, for me, a big fat no.

 

[ester]

as IHW PSD yes, foot no, even if it were just for a 'comfortable' retirement.

Albeit I'm denerved, can't bloody tell

 

[ester]

It’s not allowed to compete on a denerved horse where I’m at.
I would probably pts.

It's not 'allowed' here either, but the wording is woolly as it says it's ok if they have normal sensation again and when talking PSD no one is ever really going to know.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Was the former HHO horse who had the PSD op and then went on to compete at higher levels in BD breaking the rules?