Would you do this to your dog?

Michen said:
Hmmm ok, everything I'm reading about the training says its just one shock. No warning or vibrations or anything, so they associate it with something unpleasant I guess.

I guess I have to put my faith in the people that do this day in day out on how they do it.

Yes it's Pepper. She only wears a collar occasionally (her HHO collar actually, with her name plate on it :) )
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We used an electric collar which emitted warning vibrations, getting stronger before the actual shock, approaching a mains-connected wire buried along the yard perimeter / gateways at the roadside.
This was with a keen young collie bitch, until she got her roadsense and realised never to dart towards any traffic. Worked brilliantly for c2 months ( talking about a collie here, far too clever), by which time she’d sussed how to circumvent, but also learned to avoid vehicles, so probably preserved her for the next fifteen, lovable years. It was a Godsend at the time because she was too lightening quick to prevent.
However that system wasn’t the PAC type collar where an owner can remote- control shocks, or use in other training. As a worker, her training was all voice, whistle and hand signals, and so sharp!
But if you can protect your dog from harm, or prevent it harming something else, with a basic electric shock - why wouldn’t you? Any equipment can be abused, even a leash.
 
Michen said:
My English springer spaniel has been living in Colorado with me for the last couple of years, where I've kept her away from rattlesnakes by walking/hiking at elevation- easy to do because of my horses location being up there too. In addition the rattlesnake "season" is reasonably short.

Now we are in Arizona and only a month or so away from them coming out. Everyone here does rattlesnake training for their dog at a special school, which at the same time teach them to avoid Sonoran toads, and it uses an electric collar to have them associate the smell, sound etc. Apparently very effective and you can do the shock as lightly as required for a sensitive dog. And she is a sensitive dog. Apparently the shock is usually just done once.

I am sure this would be considered horrific in the UK, and I instantly dismissed it as such, but I don't know whether I should consider it from the point of view that it could save her life. The other option is that she stays on a short lead for all her walks, not a great way of life for a buzzy spaniel that loves scampering around.

My issue is to have access to snakes to train her even if I wanted to do it myself a diferent way, I have to go to one of these schools, and they only do it their way as above. She is a very high drive dog and gets in all sorts of vegetation etc, the chances of her coming across a snake are high. And even if she sticks to a trail, last year one was casually sunning itself on a rock right on it. Her first instinct would no doubt be to investigate. In speaking with the locals, a few of them did try to train with positive reinforcement but they said it was absolutely not as successful as the "usual" method.

Before I'm accused of being a terrible owner for even considering this, please bear in mind that I'm trying to figure out the best way to keep my dog safe and also not restrict her quality of life (aka her spending it on a short lead). I am trying to weigh up the idea of her being shocked once, vs a potential bite which would likely kill her at her size.
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Good grief, the alternatives don’t bear thinking about - just enrol in snake school ASAP, before the blighters de-hibernate!
 
CorvusCorax said:
Very common in the USA. But use the time to condition it properly, don't just whack it on and stim her.

See relevant parts of a reponse from a former world champion after she was pilloried for being pictured with her dog wearing one. I know her and she's an incredibly compassionate trainer.
She quit our sport and started her own!!

"In the United States, the e-collar is not only legal, but endorsed by the American Kennel Club. I share 40 acres with deer, fox, coyotes, skunks, Fischer and an occasional boar. My dogs run freely alongside my ATV, all wear E-collars for their protection. I submit, my dogs are happy and healthy, much more so than if they were tethered to a line.
Extremists would contend otherwise.
I own a board and train business for problem dogs. This is my livelihood. We have saved countless dogs slated for euthanasia with the use of an e-collar.
Any tool can be used to abuse an animal.
Absent these tools, hands and feet can be used to inflict pain and suffering. The person on the other end of the leash owns the responsibility for the humane treatment of their dog. Nothing can take the place of a great relationship
with your dog. Clickers do not make for a relationship, nor do leashes, prong collars, e-collars or hot dogs!"
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Thank God, someone finally understands the benefit of these things! get her over here, please, to tackle livestock worrying and the rest.
 
Clodagh said:
Yes I have, and very badly used they were too.
But a trained person who knows what they are doing preventing death by snakebite is not the same thing, surely?
What would you recommend to use to train snake safety?
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Sorry CC it wasn't a criticism.

I've no problem using them for dogs straying and similar other reasons where it puts their life in danger. I don't think electric fencing for livestock is cruel either, rather have electric fencing than barbed wire.

I just remember all the flack I got on here before when I agree with their use in such situations.
 
Michen said:
Hmmm ok, everything I'm reading about the training says its just one shock. No warning or vibrations or anything, so they associate it with something unpleasant I guess.

I guess I have to put my faith in the people that do this day in day out on how they do it.

Yes it's Pepper. She only wears a collar occasionally (her HHO collar actually, with her name plate on it :) )
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Interesting. I’m only familiar with shock collar training in general. My experience (have friends who have hunting dogs and others with wolf hybrids that needed it) has been they wear the collar to get used to having a brick on their neck, then you do recall/command training introducing the vibration first so they equate ignoring you with a shock but also have a “oh crap! I better listen!” moment from the vibration.

If I put hot wire on my fence I’m not going to make my horse touch it.

But again, I’m not the professional with training for snakes. That’s just my experience with training with a shock collar.

If Pepper is 100% reliable at healing without a leash I would ask about the gradual introduction when you go. Especially if she’s sensitive. You know her best, but even as an outsider who never had to train my dog for that (he had 50/50 recall no matter how much work I did with him he was always leashed on hikes) I would be skeptical about “here’s a collar and a remote. Now hit the shock button the first time she doesn’t listen.”
 
Right but the training isn't a punishment type thing, as in- the aim is for her to think the snake did it (I appreciate previous comments about her perhaps not associating shock with snake, I'm just saying that seems to be what they do).

It's not a case of you've ignored me asking you not to approach this snake, you've had some vibrations and you haven't listened so now it's been upped.

She would never ignore me, if I saw her approaching a snake I would be able to immediately call her off. The point is that I may not see her seeing the snake/I want her to smell it and avoid straight away.

I'm maybe not making much sense. With a gradual introduction- how/when am I supposed to do that? Because she's not going to ignore any command I ever give her, so I'm just going to be sending vibrations or whatnot down a collar for what reason? To get her used to it? Sorry if I sound dumb I just don't really get how that works in a fully trained dog that is so responsive and obedient. I don't even need to say the word "bed" I just mouth or whisper it.
 
Michen said:
Right but the training isn't a punishment type thing, as in- the aim is for her to think the snake did it (I appreciate previous comments about her perhaps not associating shock with snake, I'm just saying that seems to be what they do).

It's not a case of you've ignored me asking you not to approach this snake, you've had some vibrations and you haven't listened so now it's been upped.

She would never ignore me, if I saw her approaching a snake I would be able to immediately call her off. The point is that I may not see her seeing the snake/I want her to smell it and avoid straight away.

I'm maybe not making much sense. With a gradual introduction- how/when am I supposed to do that? Because she's not going to ignore any command I ever give her, so I'm just going to be sending vibrations or whatnot down a collar for what reason? To get her used to it? Sorry if I sound dumb I just don't really get how that works in a fully trained dog that is so responsive and obedient. I don't even need to say the word "bed" I just mouth or whisper it.
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Oh okay! Yeah sorry again I never trained my dog for this because he was 50/50 in general.

That makes total sense. Better a shock than an actual snake bite. And yes I have missed many a snake on hikes that were mentioned later thank god 😂
 
I'm totally open to hearing ideas on how to get her used to the collar though, but my understanding is you have to do it when the dog is doing something you don't want it to do. Well, she's not going to do that.

Or rather if I tell her not to do something or to do something she's going to immediately follow the command. So do I just randomly give her some vibrations to get her used to the idea that a collar could make things feel a bit weird? Like when, she's just trotting a long and I vibrate it?

Realising as I type this what a b***** good dog she is and how dating a gundog trainer when she was a puppy was SO effective :D
 
Is the idea that you buy a collar and famililarise the dog with it or do you just go there and they do it all/own the collar? If the latter and they've worked with lots of dogs I'd like to think if you explain that she's sensitive, they'll know what level of stim to use. That's assuming it's a modern collar with good contacts and levels rather than an on and an off button ....
 
CorvusCorax said:
Is the idea that you buy a collar and famililarise the dog with it or do you just go there and they do it all/own the collar? If the latter and they've worked with lots of dogs I'd like to think if you explain that she's sensitive, they'll know what level of stim to use. That's assuming it's a modern collar with good contacts and levels rather than an on and an off button ....
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They do it all and own the collar. You don’t arrive with one. I’m told!
 
Michen said:
I'm totally open to hearing ideas on how to get her used to the collar though, but my understanding is you have to do it when the dog is doing something you don't want it to do. Well, she's not going to do that.

Or rather if I tell her not to do something or to do something she's going to immediately follow the command. So do I just randomly give her some vibrations to get her used to the idea that a collar could make things feel a bit weird? Like when, she's just trotting a long and I vibrate it?

Realising as I type this what a b***** good dog she is and how dating a gundog trainer when she was a puppy was SO effective :D
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She sounds amazing and wonderful! And she’s adorable.

My pup, I was told, was a chow chow/GSD mix but I think he was a chow chow/shiba mix. Hard headed, opinionated and really the best dog. Just not one to be let off leash when off my property.

Definitely do the course. Worst case, it’s not for you or your dog and you stop.
 
Michen said:
They do it all and own the collar. You don’t arrive with one. I’m told!
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I'd ask if you could go along to look at the training and to meet/talk to/see the dogs of graduates and see if it's for you. If they've got nothing to hide then this shouldn't be a problem.
If it's not what you want, come back to me, I know some trainers in AZ.
 
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Agree with the other posters that this sounds like a necessary use of the collar and very sensible in the circumstances. Personally I would want to observe a trainer before letting them shock my own dog, just to check that their timing is impeccable. I think you'll be a good judge of this having trained sharp horses and young horses too.

ETA the timing issue is why I'm ok with shock collars not being widespread in the UK because let's be honest, most people don't have perfect timing with these things. When used well, I think shock collars can be a super effective and even humane training tool, but I would wager that only 5% of people use them well. I imagine these snake schools are ran by pros with lots of experience so I think Pepper will be fine.
 
I'd do it.

The problem, as stated above, is that snakes hide! Even if your dog has the best recall/out in the world, they will uncover/scare the snake before you see it. So I don't see how you vibrating a collar to 'warn' the dog would ever work. I imagine the point of the training is to teach the dog that if they smell or see a snake, to back the hell off looooooong before the owner even knows it's there and not think, 'hey, let's try to chase or sniff this cool animal.'
 
Caol Ila said:
I'd do it.

The problem, as stated above, is that snakes hide! Even if your dog has the best recall/out in the world, they will uncover/scare the snake before you see it. So I don't see how you vibrating a collar to 'warn' the dog would ever work. I imagine the point of the training is to teach the dog that if they smell or see a snake, to back the hell off looooooong before the owner even knows it's there and not think, 'hey, let's try to chase or sniff this cool animal.'
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Right, this lol.
 
Michen said:
My English springer spaniel has been living in Colorado with me for the last couple of years, where I've kept her away from rattlesnakes by walking/hiking at elevation- easy to do because of my horses location being up there too. In addition the rattlesnake "season" is reasonably short.

Now we are in Arizona and only a month or so away from them coming out. Everyone here does rattlesnake training for their dog at a special school, which at the same time teach them to avoid Sonoran toads, and it uses an electric collar to have them associate the smell, sound etc. Apparently very effective and you can do the shock as lightly as required for a sensitive dog. And she is a sensitive dog. Apparently the shock is usually just done once.

I am sure this would be considered horrific in the UK, and I instantly dismissed it as such, but I don't know whether I should consider it from the point of view that it could save her life. The other option is that she stays on a short lead for all her walks, not a great way of life for a buzzy spaniel that loves scampering around.

My issue is to have access to snakes to train her even if I wanted to do it myself a diferent way, I have to go to one of these schools, and they only do it their way as above. She is a very high drive dog and gets in all sorts of vegetation etc, the chances of her coming across a snake are high. And even if she sticks to a trail, last year one was casually sunning itself on a rock right on it. Her first instinct would no doubt be to investigate. In speaking with the locals, a few of them did try to train with positive reinforcement but they said it was absolutely not as successful as the "usual" method.

Before I'm accused of being a terrible owner for even considering this, please bear in mind that I'm trying to figure out the best way to keep my dog safe and also not restrict her quality of life (aka her spending it on a short lead). I am trying to weigh up the idea of her being shocked once, vs a potential bite which would likely kill her at her size.
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I absolutely would. We do this in Australia too. All the snakes here in Victoria are venomous, we have the two most venomous snakes in the world.

I’d rather some short term pain than a horrible death. It’s so, so important.
 
We all know if an animal gets a zap on the fence they avoid the fence. We don’t gradually turn the fence up gradually and get them used to it, the shock is the deterrent.

Listen to the advice of the trainers, it’s probably better to associate the sudden shock with snake than collar.
 
Equi said:
We all know if an animal gets a zap on the fence they avoid the fence. We don’t gradually turn the fence up gradually and get them used to it, the shock is the deterrent.

Listen to the advice of the trainers, it’s probably better to associate the sudden shock with snake than collar.
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Admittedly my learning is based on tools as 'help' based on pressure and release, not traditional aversion training but like I said, the OP should be able to go along and like what they see/hear and decide if it's for them or not :)
 
Equi said:
We all know if an animal gets a zap on the fence they avoid the fence. We don’t gradually turn the fence up gradually and get them used to it, the shock is the deterrent.

Listen to the advice of the trainers, it’s probably better to associate the sudden shock with snake than collar.
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That. My JRT got shocked by the (battery, not mains) fence once. Bolted about half a mile in sheer terror before we could call her back! Never went anywhere near an electric fence again. One shock did it.

I would listen to the actual trainers who are experienced in this specific thing. So phone up and have a chat/go along. If they tell you to get her to wear a collar more on the run up to the course, then of course do so.
 
Michen said:
My English springer spaniel has been living in Colorado with me for the last couple of years, where I've kept her away from rattlesnakes by walking/hiking at elevation- easy to do because of my horses location being up there too. In addition the rattlesnake "season" is reasonably short.

Now we are in Arizona and only a month or so away from them coming out. Everyone here does rattlesnake training for their dog at a special school, which at the same time teach them to avoid Sonoran toads, and it uses an electric collar to have them associate the smell, sound etc. Apparently very effective and you can do the shock as lightly as required for a sensitive dog. And she is a sensitive dog. Apparently the shock is usually just done once.

I am sure this would be considered horrific in the UK, and I instantly dismissed it as such, but I don't know whether I should consider it from the point of view that it could save her life. The other option is that she stays on a short lead for all her walks, not a great way of life for a buzzy spaniel that loves scampering around.

My issue is to have access to snakes to train her even if I wanted to do it myself a diferent way, I have to go to one of these schools, and they only do it their way as above. She is a very high drive dog and gets in all sorts of vegetation etc, the chances of her coming across a snake are high. And even if she sticks to a trail, last year one was casually sunning itself on a rock right on it. Her first instinct would no doubt be to investigate. In speaking with the locals, a few of them did try to train with positive reinforcement but they said it was absolutely not as successful as the "usual" method.

Before I'm accused of being a terrible owner for even considering this, please bear in mind that I'm trying to figure out the best way to keep my dog safe and also not restrict her quality of life (aka her spending it on a short lead). I am trying to weigh up the idea of her being shocked once, vs a potential bite which would likely kill her at her size.
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I'd do it - it could save her life.
 
If I lived in rattlesnake country I would do it in a heart beat. With the snake breaking I believe it is one shock and out. Conditioning to the collar for training is a different sort of use.
Good luck with the more "positive" methods. They are time consuming and aren't known to work as well. YMMV.
Also, make sure that there aren't any snakes hanging around your place before you go outside. My aunt in southern California had a 4 foot rattler in her backyard once.
Gila monsters do tend to be sluggish but don't risk it.
Remember, one good shock beats dying a horrible death. And, if you're lucky enough to find a vet with anti-venom, that stuff is $$$$.
 
I'd do it; I'm not in the USA and neither am I an e-collar user but all my dogs have been fascinated by snakes and one got very poorly after an adder bite (he was fine in the end but it was scary!).

This isn't 'training' with an e-collar as such, where you would accustom the dog to the collar, train it in recall, etc.; this is more like aversion therapy where you want an instant avoidance reaction to the object associated with the shock.

You can't control the variable when it comes to meeting snakes in the wild, so it's not even the same situation as stock-training where there's a flock of sheep in your field to work with gradually. You've no idea when/where snakes will turn up; I'm assuming snake school has some safely available.

Timing of the shock is the other aspect that has to be right and I'm betting the snake school people have that down pat. A jumpy owner and miss-timed button press could lead to all sorts of problems so I can see why they don't want you to bring your own.

It's literally a short, sharp shock and then it's done and the dog can then lead a safer, more fulfilling life.
 
Splinters said:
I'd do it; I'm not in the USA and neither am I an e-collar user but all my dogs have been fascinated by snakes and one got very poorly after an adder bite (he was fine in the end but it was scary!).

This isn't 'training' with an e-collar as such, where you would accustom the dog to the collar, train it in recall, etc.; this is more like aversion therapy where you want an instant avoidance reaction to the object associated with the shock.

You can't control the variable when it comes to meeting snakes in the wild, so it's not even the same situation as stock-training where there's a flock of sheep in your field to work with gradually. You've no idea when/where snakes will turn up; I'm assuming snake school has some safely available.

Timing of the shock is the other aspect that has to be right and I'm betting the snake school people have that down pat. A jumpy owner and miss-timed button press could lead to all sorts of problems so I can see why they don't want you to bring your own.

It's literally a short, sharp shock and then it's done and the dog can then lead a safer, more fulfilling life.
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Yeh this is what I thought but comments above say this is cruel so now IDK.
 
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