Would you find a different trainer?

[Rlister89]

I've recently been taking my 4 yr old tb to some lessons with a well respected dressage trainer within the area. This has mainly been to get him in the lorry and used to going out and about,but also as we don't have an arena at the yard so it's his only schooling apart from what we do out hacking. This year has been a bit stop/start for other non horse reasons and I'm aware that as he is officially 5 tomorrow he isn't quite as far along with things as a lot of other horses his age. I'm fully happy with this as this year we will do a bit more and I'm in no rush to 'produce' him so to speak. He happily hacks, canter is unbalanced but all the aids are in place and he's a really happy easy going horse. Plan this year is to get him out on some fun rides/clinics and a few small comps with no pressure on him at all.

However the trainer I've been going to is very much of the opinion I am miles behind and 'she wouldn't dream of taking him to a dressage test, even intro, for fear of embarrasment'. Now this did upset me,I thought we were doing quite well but I know she makes a living producing horses so she wants results. I've been to 5 lessons and we have focused more on getting him to submit and go on the bit as she thinks it is easier to win this battle now rather than later on. This hasn't sat easy with my as I don't feel that is how I want to train him however she is very successful, trains with olympians - so must know what she's talking about?She has discussed draw reins and forcing his head down a few times as things in the long run it will be easier and more productive - now I don't want to go back, however some people have said maybe I'm being too soft and slow in his progress and maybe they have a point?

I didn't mean this to be that long but I guess I just want some reason assurance that either I am being too soft and get on with it, or run a mile,never go back and find someone a bit more sympathetic?

 

[Drzoidberg2]

My view is you train your horse how you want to in order to achieve what you want to achieve. If you feel this trainer is pushing you to force issues too fast and bring your horse on quicker than you think is right then it doesn't matter how well respected she is.


Personally I think you are more likely to cause a major issue that will stay with a horse for life using things like draw reins to force a result than being a bit too soft on a horse on occasion.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Trainer sounds awful, find another. If she used the term "battle" then if that is her attitude to training then I'd be very worried. If you turn training into a battle you'll end up with a very unhappy sour horse. You want your horse to enjoy as far as possible his training not fear and loathe it.

For what it's worth the dressage trainer who I used before my horse semi-retired is a successful list 1 judge and Grand Prix rider and she never advocated anything like that.

 

[SallyBatty]

I would definitely change trainer as I wouldn't want to go to one who suggested draw reins to force a horse to hold it's head in the right position as that is not creating a correct outline.

 

[scats]

If you are having doubts, they are not the trainer for you.

I would also question anyone who doesn't encourage you to get the horse out to some intro tests (it is for beginners, after all), suggests draw reins and is too concerned about the front end and not what's happening at the back.

 

[monkeymad]

Its your horse and your cash - if you are not happy with this way of teaching find another instructor! I would want to be taught by someone whose methods I felt happy with.

 

[Lulup]

Training a young horse is about progressive steps to educate him not having a 'battle'. I would hesitate in following the advice of anyone who advocated force as a perfectly acceptable method of training. Your horse has had a far better and less pressured start than many and this will likely stand you in good stead for his future soundness of body and mind so go with your instincts. For what it's worth my two 4 (about to be 5) year olds are also miles behind as they are purely hacking and will continue to do so until they are confident, forward and mature enough to cope with more. Little steps are fine as long as they're in the right direction so enjoy the luxury of being able to produce your youngster slowly and carefully xx

 

[Vodkagirly]

Personally yes. You don't need someone who is negative and dismissive of what you have achieved so far. You need someone who is going to improve you in the future. The road is often far from smooth for us amateurs and you want someone who can coach you through the rough patches not make you feel bad because she "could" of done better

 

[Red-1]

I would not have lessons with someone who wants to battle to make a horse submit, and force a horse onto the bit with draw reins. That type of "on the bit" refers to placement of the head, and often involves tension and going behind the bit to evade.

On the bit is more about relaxing and reaching, yielding and understanding. It is achieved by timing, not force.

Could you have misunderstood?

The other thing is, anyone can have lessons with an Olympic trainer. Just book and pay the fee. It does not make your trainer necessarily better.


ETA, if your horse is happy hacking then this is a huge achievement.

Also to add, it does not take ages to have a horse understand the contact. I rode one this month that has only been backed 5 weeks, and was on the bit in walk, trot and canter, as the basics had all been put in place on long reins, and the rider was excellent in their timing and training.

I would go to a trainer who can explain this to you, and it need not take ages. BUT as long as your horse is happy and in control I would feel great to hack, go to clinics, and do small dressage outings, and hold my head high.

 

[Tyssandi]

I've recently been taking my 4 yr old tb to some lessons with a well respected dressage trainer within the area. This has mainly been to get him in the lorry and used to going out and about,but also as we don't have an arena at the yard so it's his only schooling apart from what we do out hacking. This year has been a bit stop/start for other non horse reasons and I'm aware that as he is officially 5 tomorrow he isn't quite as far along with things as a lot of other horses his age. I'm fully happy with this as this year we will do a bit more and I'm in no rush to 'produce' him so to speak. He happily hacks, canter is unbalanced but all the aids are in place and he's a really happy easy going horse. Plan this year is to get him out on some fun rides/clinics and a few small comps with no pressure on him at all.

However the trainer I've been going to is very much of the opinion I am miles behind and 'she wouldn't dream of taking him to a dressage test, even intro, for fear of embarrasment'. Now this did upset me,I thought we were doing quite well but I know she makes a living producing horses so she wants results. I've been to 5 lessons and we have focused more on getting him to submit and go on the bit as she thinks it is easier to win this battle now rather than later on. This hasn't sat easy with my as I don't feel that is how I want to train him however she is very successful, trains with olympians - so must know what she's talking about?She has discussed draw reins and forcing his head down a few times as things in the long run it will be easier and more productive - now I don't want to go back, however some people have said maybe I'm being too soft and slow in his progress and maybe they have a point?

I didn't mean this to be that long but I guess I just want some reason assurance that either I am being too soft and get on with it, or run a mile,never go back and find someone a bit more sympathetic?

Wow she does not have much faith in you does she??? You cannot force or push a person or horse faster than they are able to work/improve. She should know that as a qualified instructor, every client and horse is different and her job is to help/guide/push you both to improve your riding/schooling and not force you beyond this because she wants results.


I had a trainer in the past who had no sympathy in me and chose to tell me to go up the other end and work on my own while she taught the other two. Why did she do this you ask??? because I am a slow learner and she did not want to spend time working at my speed.


Yes we all need a little shove or push at times but within our limit, not pushing us beyond it. So what if you don't do well in the test!! it is not the end of the world and most first test are a learning curve for you and your horse and that is how you improve.


Being on the receiving end of * I cannot be bothered with you* I would seriously look for another instructor, one who will help you and you have a par with and will let you travel at your speeds.

This one seems to care more about her reputation of bringing out the next world class dressage rider and anyone slow learner or not showing her at her best (instructors) is not worth the time.

Get rid!!!



My mare ID is 6 1/2 and is at least a year behind in schooling due to previous owners not doing it properly, we are not rushing but working at her pace

 

[Rlister89]

Thanks, that's made me feel loads better! I think I have thought of going back as a few people on the yard use her and think she is great. However I think of where I've got with my now retired horse and am happy with the progress he made with me, and where we got to competition wise. I haven't had lessons in years so thought I was just completely out of touch

It certainly wasn't a misunderstanding, she outlined where she wanted his head and said in the next lesson we would get it there whatever it took, at the point he was completely backwards thinking after trying some exercises she had us doing. He works well hacking and although won't win tests at the moment I'm not expecting him too, he's babyish still but is learning about contact and I feel like overall is making the progress I want, maybe just not as fast as others!

Having ridden him tonight and had a great time after him having 2 weeks off has really made me think I dont enjoy taking him there. Guess it's time to find someone else!

 

[cundlegreen]

Anybody who suggests draw reins to get the required head carriage is not a horse trainer, IMO.

 

[twiggy2]

Forcing and battles have no place in horse riding, if you have an unspoilt horse you should be teaching willingness and relaxation. I would not return to an instructor (a trainer to my mind teaches you to improve the horses way of going-not what this person is teaching) who teaches in the way you describe and draw reins belong in the bin.
Edited to add mymare was not fully backed till rising 6 and dud not go in a manege till a year later, I feel she has been much better for being more mature when asked to work.

 

[wills_91]

Didn't finish reading your op I wouldn't continue to have lessons with this person. You have a lovely young horse and are in no rush to produce him so why spoil the work you've already done. Just don't go back and look for someone else. He's your horse it's your money do it the way you want. I have a nine year old mare whoa massively behind due to my health issues, she's got a home for life with me so it's not really a problem

 

[rachk89]

Draw reins to force the head down? Guess you could do that if you want future back problems.

Get rid of her. No point staying with someone who doesn't believe in your plan or abilities.

 

[Cowpony]

Regardless of whether you agree with her methods or not, I would not pay someone who made me feel inadequate or tried to push my horse beyond what I felt was reasonable.

 

[Rlister89]

Thanks for the replies, it makes it much more obvious when written down!!

 

[blitznbobs]

I d get shut - sounds like a crap dressage rider to me ... If you line up everything the head will go in the right place . If you start with the head it will all go wrong... And draw reins ? Really?

 

[LadySam]

Another one saying find a new trainer. Apart from echoing the sentiments of everyone on her training ideas re "battles" and draw reins, you're just not on the same page. It's good to be challenged and pushed out of your comfort zone a bit, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to go slowly, especially at the age of 4 for heaven's sake. You need a trainer who is more simpatico with what you want. It's your horse and your money.

The thing that really stood out to me was the quote "she wouldn't dream of taking him to a dressage test, even intro, for fear of embarrasment". She's making things about her, not you and your horse as it should be.

FWIW, I think you're exactly on the right track wanting to spend this year taking a young horse out to clinics, fun rides and small no-pressure comps.

 

[Micky]

If your questioning this trainer now, move on...I have been through a few trainers until I found the lovely one I'm with now...get searching...

 

[laura_nash]

It certainly wasn't a misunderstanding, she outlined where she wanted his head and said in the next lesson we would get it there whatever it took

Definitely change! I don't understand this obsession with where a horse holds it head, worry about the rest of the horse first FFS. I was lucky enough to have a lot of early lessons as a teenager with a really good dressage teacher (Barbara Ripman), I don't remember any discussion about where exactly the horse should be holding its head - it certainly wasn't a thing we focussed on and most certainly not something you should be worrying about with a young horse IMO.

 

[Cortez]

Without seeing how your horse is carrying himself it is impossible to comment on whether you should take your instructor's advice or not. Perhaps he is going around like a giraffe? Or with a really hollow back? Or completely disengaged? We don't know. This is why eyes-on-the-ground are so useful, especially for people who habitually ride alone and have schooled their horses without help.

I'm not a fan of extraneous equipment and wouldn't have draw reins anywhere near my tackroom (or horses), but horses (and their riders) do need to understand the bit and the connection to it, it is not an unimportant aside as so many people seem to insist. On balance I would say that a different instructor might suit you better, but I wouldn't dismiss what has been said to you out of hand just because you don't like what she says (apart from the draw reins; don't use those).

 

[Charlie007]

Yes I would find a different trainer. I have been bringing on a young tb and have been encouraged all the way by my trainer. He wasn't ready to do an intro test but I needed to get him out and about so was encouraged to go and try. First outing was horrendous, he wasn't naughty just tense, it was his first time in the white boards. He has just won a prelim on over 70%. We have done a couple of novices, again not established at novice level, but I have been encouraged to give it a go and surprisingly gained good scores!! IMO you need someone who wants you to progress at your own speed but pushes just enough that your inproving, and encourages you every step of the way, it's not easy bringing on a youngster x

 

[laura_nash]

Without seeing how your horse is carrying himself it is impossible to comment on whether you should take your instructor's advice or not. Perhaps he is going around like a giraffe? Or with a really hollow back? Or completely disengaged? We don't know. This is why eyes-on-the-ground are so useful, especially for people who habitually ride alone and have schooled their horses without help.

I'm not a fan of extraneous equipment and wouldn't have draw reins anywhere near my tackroom (or horses), but horses (and their riders) do need to understand the bit and the connection to it, it is not an unimportant aside as so many people seem to insist. On balance I would say that a different instructor might suit you better, but I wouldn't dismiss what has been said to you out of hand just because you don't like what she says (apart from the draw reins; don't use those).

I agree that horses and riders need to understand the bit and the connection to it, I certainly didn't mean to imply that its unimportant. Its also true that OP's horse may be going around like a giraffe, we don't know. I still don't think the trainer should be saying the horse should have its head "there" and we are going to put its head "there" next session, its just completely the wrong focus.

 

[Sukistokes2]

Move on quickly I say!!! Who needs that in their lives. You have a plan for your horse, you are not in a hurry and you should have an instructor/ trainer who understands this. A lot of people think or are worried about being embarrassed at shows or that you should be competitive, you see it on here at times. Unless you are a wonderful, professional rider, who can slot into the high levels on a young horse, without blinking , then trips out to develop confidence and ring craft are vital. They can also be fun and educational. Once you find the right instructor or even instructors it will better for you. My instructor builds my confidence, builds my skills but also uses what I know and builds it in to the lessons , so that I feel part of the process and it's a two way thing. We are working together and have the same goals.

 

[Sukistokes2]

Move on quickly I say!!! Who needs that in their lives. You have a plan for your horse, you are not in a hurry and you should have an instructor/ trainer who understands this. A lot of people think or are worried about being embarrassed at shows or that you should be competitive, you see it on here at times. Unless you are a wonderful, professional rider, who can slot into the high levels on a young horse, without blinking , then trips out to develop confidence and ring craft are vital. They can also be fun and educational. Once you find the right instructor or even instructors it will better for you. My instructor builds my confidence, builds my skills but also uses what I know and builds it in to the lessons , so that I feel part of the process and it's a two way thing. We are working together and have the same goals.

Just to add, I wouldn't even stay in a lesson with a trainer who wanted to "fix" my horses head. If a horse is going around with it's head up, until it has the strength and muscle to support a correct outline it will not soften and comedown. Pulling its head down would be frankly a disaster, block the front end and give a false outline. I see so much of this at the silly unaffliated shows I do, my Clydesdale beats them every time at W+T because I have not a touched his head, he is forward , rhythmic. That's all you need at the start. That and a correct circle helps

 

[scats]

When I'm teaching, I spend a great deal of times telling new clients to leave the head alone. There seems to be this national obsession with fiddling with reins, see-sawing... a total desperation to have a head in a certain place.

Some people just physically (or mentally, perhaps) seem to struggle to ride a horse without messing with the front end.

 

[Cortez]

When I'm teaching, I spend a great deal of times telling new clients to leave the head alone. There seems to be this national obsession with fiddling with reins, see-sawing... a total desperation to have a head in a certain place.

Some people just physically (or mentally, perhaps) seem to struggle to ride a horse without messing with the front end.

Oh yes, completely agree with this ^^^ But the opposite also occurs; people who are terrified to touch the reins and just leave the horse bobbling along with either no contact at all, or low, fixed hands that offer no elastic give. The latter in particular causes the horse to hollow which destroys all possibility of balance, suppleness, engagement or progress. The horse can only learn to do what we ask him to do if there is connection. BIG difference between that and "putting his head in its place".........

 

[milliepops]

Oh yes, completely agree with this ^^^ But the opposite also occurs; people who are terrified to touch the reins and just leave the horse bobbling along with either no contact at all, or low, fixed hands that offer no elastic give. The latter in particular causes the horse to hollow which destroys all possibility of balance, suppleness, engagement or progress. The horse can only learn to do what we ask him to do if there is connection. BIG difference between that and "putting his head in its place".........

Agree. I see this a lot... horses tootling around with their ears up the riders nose, with someone standing in the middle banging on about leg, leg, leg... all that happens is the horse runs along out of balance and is NEVER magically going to find the connection by itself - at some point the rider has to guide the horse in a helpful way

That said, this trainer does not sound like a great fit - I wouldn't want someone putting me off 'for fear of embarrassment', its my problem whether i am embarrassed or not

 

[Goldenstar]

You can't train a horse with out influencing its neck .
You could ride round with the horse poking its nose with its back inverted for ever and it it won't learn by magic what it wanted .
There's a difference between influencing the horse and holding its head down and masses of riders who have no idea what this means .
What they are being taught I have no idea.