Would YOU pay £10,000 for a horse that weaves

Pale Rider said:
If you only go by published study you will find that contradictory studies are about equal.

Don't get too Hung up on weaving, there are plenty of others.

You could try to improve the situation for the horse rather than put up with it, before the illness becomes permanent damage.

Buy and sell all you want, compete till your blue in the face, but respect the horse, at least.
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So you can't direct me to any studies that show it is caused by or causes brain damage then?
If you don't go by published study what on earth do you go by when you are claiming a horse is brain damaged?
Unless you do brain scans and post mortems yourself which I presume you don't? Perhaps I am wrong and you have done your own research and study?

I'm not hung up on weaving, I am talking about weaving as that is what the thread is about :)

Who has said they don't try to improve the situation?

Nobody sets out to make a horse weave or to buy a horse specifically because it weaves- people on this thread are actually saying they would try and change the living arrangements to see if it helps the horse and that weaving wouldn't put them off buying a horse- I think that is a positive thing :)

Just because people accept that horses some weave, it doesn't mean they like it or condone it.

And where have people shown they don't respect the horse?
Is competing a horse that weaves disrespectful in your opinion then?
 
Pale Rider said:
Personally I hate the idea that people will put up with 'quirks' for the sake of competition, or 'doing the job'.

We give undevisive names like stable vices, for brain damage and mental illness, just to make ourselves feel better about it.
Even if the damage is caused through breeding it is still our responsibility, not the horses.
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and....I'm guessing you are a complete novice who's never owned more than a couple of horses.
 
Pale Rider said:
Spyda, what your filly is doing, doesn't sound like weaving.
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Oh, it definitely is swinging heavily from one side to the other; weight from one front leg to the other. She'll sometimes do it in the morning if she's in a stressy mood (usually when in season) when it's morning turnout and she's keen to get lead out. It certainly isn't a persistent issue and happens only a handful of times per month (if that), but I think without careful management and plenty of stimulation and turnout, this horse would soon slip towards doing it more. Maybe to the level of it becoming an irritating and permanent 'vice'.

I truly believe that the inclination to perform 'vices' is, in no small part, innate within individuals; although management has a lot to do with how severely these 'vices' develop and habit form.

I doubt 'brain damage' has much to do with the development of 'vices' in horses. Brain damage is usually demonstrated in other ways. I do agree, though, that management can severely affect the mental health of a horse and, therefore, lead to vice/s.
 
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BEUnderTheInfluence said:
People don't pay 10k for 'a horse that weaves' they pay 10k for a horse that does A,B,C and D and happens to weave. If it weaves then so what? Personally petty stable vices don't put me of a horse, if it moves, jumps and has a good attitude to work then who cares really? Its still worth the asking price if it does what it says on the tin.
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/\ /\ This :)
 
Pale Rider said:
We give undevisive names like stable vices, for brain damage and mental illness, just to make ourselves feel better about it.
Even if the damage is caused through breeding it is still our responsibility, not the horses.
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WTF'ing planet are you on?! :eek:

Stable vices aren't brain damage. There's actually studies that indicate horses who develop stable vices/have a predisposition to them are in fact naturally fast learners. :rolleyes:
 
DragonSlayer said:
If said 'oss was likely to get me round Badminton in one piece, then yes, I'd pay that.

:D
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You'll be lucky for £10k!

Yes, if I was in the market for a £10k horse, which in the league of competition horses isn't actually a lot of money, then you'd probably expect a few quirks.
 
Not unless it was exceptional. I had a mare that weaved constantly and it was a nightmare- even the most simple tasks like plaiting were difficult. The weaving also put so much strain on her front end she was constantly tight and eventually it took effect on her front feet and lower fore limb.
 
I wouldn't pay £10k for ahorse full stop :D

I would buy a nice (cheap) youngser and spend the rest of the money on lessons and keeping it happy so it hopefully doesn't start weaving.

One of my horses (the love of my life) weaved - it never bother me and now he lives out 24/7 he doesn't anymore.
 
If i had £10k to spend, and the horse did everything I wanted it to, then definitely. There is an aweful lot of research that suggests that there is a genetic disposition to weaving, so it is very possible the cause is down to breeding - so the question would be do we breed from top performance horses that weave to continue the line of performance, or stop to loose the disposition to weave - difficult one to weigh up... (same goes for things like crib-biting too)
 
Bears weave in a zoo, big cats pace, its all displaced behaviour, our horses are doing the same stuff. If you really think that a tendency to stable vices indicates a quick intelligent horse, then surely this is a worse indictment of whoever let this happen.
To then reward them by say 10 k is wrong. If the vice ment that the horse was now worth much much less, people would be more careful, if nothing else just the cash.

I believe that stable vices are mental illness, just like a child that rocks obsessively, whether this becomes permanent damage is up to the owner.
 
If I had that amount to spend, then yes, I would. If the horse did his job under saddle as I wanted, I would be entirely unconcerned about him weaving if he so desired.
 
Its Not Magic said:
I recently read a post where someone purchased a horse which was advetised for 10K. She says 'it can be a bit quirky and weaves when stressed,' but well worth the money as he has been placed everytime out showing and bsja.

Am I wrong in thinking No horse is born bad, just bad owners. If a horse develops an issue, it does so for a reason. Personally if I saw an advert asking 10K for a quirky horse that weaves when stressed. I would not even bother going to see it.

I most certainly would think it was not worth anywhere near 10K.

What do you guys think?
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TBH, I think all horses over £10k are likely to be quirky to some degree! Once they get to a certain level, they generally are. I personally wouldn't buy a weaver for £10k but then I wouldnt buy a weaver for £1k! But thats just my choice, I dont do vices. Some people are fine with it, and if it doesnt effect the horses performance then maybe it is worth that. Depends on what level its competing at.
 
Pale Rider said:
Bears weave in a zoo, big cats pace, its all displaced behaviour, our horses are doing the same stuff. If you really think that a tendency to stable vices indicates a quick intelligent horse, then surely this is a worse indictment of whoever let this happen.
To then reward them by say 10 k is wrong. If the vice ment that the horse was now worth much much less, people would be more careful, if nothing else just the cash..
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So horses that weave should be stigmatised, shut away and not seen as successful and valuable horses?

IMO the more behaviour is seen, the more people question WHY and the more people try and fix the cause of the problem and not the symptom.

How will that solve the issue?

And weaving DOES means the horse is worth less than the same horse without the vice- as has been said again and again throughout this thread!

And you are assuming that the person who is selling the horse for £10k is the same person who caused the horse to weave in the first place- big assumption to make.

Pale Rider said:
I believe that stable vices are mental illness, just like a child that rocks obsessively, whether this becomes permanent damage is up to the owner.
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So now we have gone from proven brain damage to you 'believing' it is a mental illness- quite a switch you've made! ;)

When does the damage become permanent in your opinion and what exactly is this damage?

Is a horse who weaves for a few seconds out of 24 hours in a day damaged?
Or a horse who weaves for 5 minutes in a week?

Is it the same damage as kicking the door for attention, pawing when tied up?
 
No at the end of the day weaving is a vice and can cause leg problems, same as cribbing and windsucking, all can cause major health issues and are all caused by boredom in my opinion nothing to do with "quirky" bad horse management comes to mind.
 
Pale Rider said:
Pinkvboots, spot on.
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There should be more horse women with your conpassion! Fancy it not bothering those/some 'as long as it does it's job'! No thought to how the horse feels or why it started weaving, clearly through sheer neglect and it does not matter if it was genectic or not. If people did not drive these horses to such an extent and use them as machines for their own gratiforcation, then these issue's probably would not arise, or at the very lease be worked on.

I for one would NOT support this by buying a horse that clearly is
/has been distressed in the mind and probably too frightened to refuse to perform, as it probably realises it would be beaten/whipped/locked up in the stable for god knows how long and probably out of view of it's kind. Horses are herd animals, they willingly allow us to ride them and in return we should be thankful for the pleasure. Not use them as tools/machines and most certainly not support those who cause these issues, nor reward them by saying, it's okay' as long as it performs, does well, no one will care and most will buy it...so Hey Ho, I can carry on doing this to this poor animal!

Way to go Pale Rider!!

Now lets sit back and read how many of you will be up in arms and disagree. Give it your best shot, I know how I feel and there should be more like me. If you cannot get the best out of your horse with kindness...Give it up!
 
Some People said:
Now lets sit back and read how many of you will be up in arms and disagree. Give it your best shot, I know how I feel and there should be more like me. If you cannot get the best out of your horse with kindness...Give it up!
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What on earth is the point in trying to have a reasoned debate when you have quite clearly stated you won't listen to a word anyone with an opposing view has and you clearly just want a fight?

If you don't buy a horse that weaves as it is rewarding the awful neglect and suffering it must have endured, do you not buy any horse with any issue or vice?

If it bites, it been beaten and forced to defend itself?

Bad to catch = must have been attacked with a headcollar?

Difficult to load = must have been abused in a horsebox?

Bucks when ridden = must have badly fitting tack?

Pulls when ridden = must have poor teeth?

Paws the floor = must have been tied up for weeks on end at some point?

I assume you only ever buy absolutely perfect horses as any bad habit or behaviour you accept would surely be rewarding the previous mismanagement of the horse?
 
Best horse I've had the pleasure to share a yard with has competed to 3*. He had been owned and cared for by one person since he was a yearling, and prior to that he'd been pampered and adored by his breeder. His owner is a brilliant horsewoman and fantastic at keeping her horses in fine style. He weaved from day 1- he just couldn't stand still in a stable or in a box, or standing too long on hacks. Nothing physically or mentally wrong with him- regular vet checks ensured that and his happy and healthy look was lovely. He was a brilliant horse, and now he's in his early 20s he is being kept in the manner he deserves- gentle hacking, being silly with the young horses and pampered beyond belief. Still weaves. If you'd offered his rider £10k at the peak of his career she'd have laughed at you!
 
The vast majority of people who are saying a sterotypie wouldn't put them off aren't saying they "don't care" as in, they wouldn't try to ameliorate the situation, they're only saying they wouldn't necessarily walk away from a horse with a predisposition to such a behaviour if the horse otherwise suited their situation and they felt they could deal with it successfully. Out of curiosity, why would NOT buying the horse help the situation? If we're going to say that no one should ever purchase a horse with an undesirable behaviour then presumably we're saying those horses should be removed from the gene pool entirely . . .;) Otherwise, what is to become of them?

Obviously, stereotypies have a management/situational component. But anyone selling a horse is LEGALLY bound to disclose if they've ever seen the horse display a "vice" (not what they're properly called, but whatever), which is not at all the same thing as saying the horse is locked in a dark box, weaving like a fiend all day. I've seen horses weave at gateways at feeding/coming in time, just a time or two - what would be the solution to that.

The "mental illness" theory is interesting. Define your terms, please. The mechanisms for stereotypies are fairly well known now. It's also fairly well understood that mental illness is a mix of nature and nurture. Perhaps the problem is it's such a loaded term. Using the criteria invoked, a person you twiddles their thumbs or has to arrange their socks in order is mentally ill. TECHNICALLY you may have a point. But the person is also perfectly functional and functionally "healthy". There's even evidence that it may provide a benign stress relief mechanism. As for a life without stress . . . that's a pretty tricky one. We all - horses and people - react to stresses differently. Again, I'm not saying it's "good practice" to let a horse weave until it's in a muck sweat and do nothing about it, but nor am I convinced a horse that sways in the breeze a few times while it's waiting for it's dinner is a short step from the insane asylum.

To be fair though, a steotypie isn't a "quirk", it is a sign the horse is having to displace a significant amount of stress. People can choose to keep the horse as it is and "accept" the behaviour but it doesn't change the origin of it. And that's miles away from a horse that every now and then shows the behaviour under unavoidable stress, such as at feeding time or on box rest.

Btw, I was most intrigued once to see a wild deer weaving. A small herd of them often went through the field next to our school so I saw them often. One, clearly adolescent, was more active than the others, often striding back and forth while the others ambled and nibbled. When they left the field they did so through a small gap along the fence, so had to jump one at a time. The obviously anxious one never went first - I presume that had something to do with herd order or perhaps an inability to organise itself to get their first - but while it waited it weaved like a good 'un. I can guarantee you it had never been "confined" in the way we mean it, but yet there it was, showing a containment displacement.

Which again, does not endorse keeping horses in ways that are more stressful than they need to be but let's face it, almost EVERY way we keep horses is more stressful than ideal. Who lets their horse exclusively choose its terrain and companions?

So totally off topic. :) And obviously people have a perfect right to do as they please, but to imply that one should never consider buying a horse with a stereotypie because it is mentally ill in a non-functional and potentially dangerous way, seems a bit dramatic, give the evidence to the contrary.
 
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