Would you report someone not declaring their earnings?

[AshTay]

It was wrong of the OP to make that assumption but she opened an interesting can of worms....

Surely it depends on the situation?

If someone was taking in a fair amount of cash each week (i.e. more than a tenner) and was also claiming benefits then they should be reported (and I acknowledge that this too isn't black and white as I have known people doing this and haven't reported them because I know they werent trying to exploit the system).

Someone earning minimum wage should pay tax on their regular earnings - it's not a huge amount and we all have to do it and if they don't also pay NI they are the ones that ultimately lose out. But I wouldn't begrudge them the odd tenner for giving a lesson or an extra couple of hours work.

When I was younger I really wanted to work with horses. My mum discouraged me saying that if I worked as a groom that I'd never afford my own horses as there were so many young girls wanting to go into it that wages were so low. So I did something else, now earn a good wage and have 3 horses!

I don't see why grooms in particular should be felt sorry for because it's not like working with horses is a last resort job - you don't "end up" as a groom - it's a vocation that people actively go into (as someone above said it's also a lifestyle choice). No one goes into being a groom thinking they're going to be well-off! I feel more sorry for people in telesales and going door-to-door on minimum wage.

 

[xspiralx]

SusieT - whilst I agree with your principles, your calculations seem pretty out to me!

A 2 bed house for £350 a month? Maybe in some areas I guess, but anywhere in the South East you're really looking at a minimum of £500 pcm for a really grotty studio flat, and more like £6/700 for a decent 1 bed.

So assuming about £9500 for the year take home pay...

You can rent a room in a shared house for around £400 pcm - so £4800 p/a.

Running a car - assuming doing 11k a year which would be a moderate commute and local driving, on a basic car, you can be looking at £1200 alone on petrol, plus £130 tax, £150 MOT and servicing and on average maybe £500 ish in repair and maintenance - so £2000 in total.

Another £1200 per year for food and groceries, if you're careful.

Council tax - maybe £600 for the year your share.

Electricity/gas/water - lets say £600.

Line rental, phone and internet - £300 if you get a decent deal.

Mobile phone - £120 if you're on PAYG and careful with your useage.

TV license - £120.

So that adds up to £9740... that's already £170 MORE than take home pay, and doesn't account for any type of luxury - drinks with friends, nights out, people's birthdays, Christmas, holiday, visiting friends or family, buying new clothes, emergencies etc. And even if you make gifts by hand, there's still the costs of buying the materials, travel costs to see people, a round of drinks in the pub for someone's birthday - unless you're a hermit and have no family or friends its not possible to completely avoid these expenses.

The costs above are for somebody living a pretty spartan life as it is - yes those could be squeezed - you could live in a hovel, you could do without phone or internet or tv, you could potentially do without a car (but then public transport is hardly cheap!), you could live on beans on toast - but even then you'd be very close to the bread line and your life wouldn't be much fun.

I'm not trying to make an argument that benefit fraud is ever acceptable (in fact I am categorically against it!) - but merely that the cost of living even a basic lifestyle is much more than you'd think.

 

[catkin]

As the wife of a freelance instructor & groom I find some of these posts really annoying & offensive, just because somebody is paid in cash (how many people can be bothered to pay for a tenner by cheque?) & doesn't charge a silly amount for their services, please don't assume that they aren't paying their way.

My husband works 7 days a week (including christmas & all bank holidays) teaching & caring for other people's horses, he's busy because he charges reasonable rates & is good at what he does, he's fully insured & everything he does goes through the books so he pays all the tax & national insurance he's expected to.

I'm sure a lot of other freelance people & their relatives have found this thread just as insulting.

Well said!!

Freelancers are self-employed. We have to keep our books and pay NI and tax. What the customer is charged and how they wish to pay (any legal tender will do- and that includes cash) is up to the business.

 

[benson21]

I think if its the odd tenner being earnt here and there, then ok, but if these people are earning a regular wage, albeit small, then why shouldnt they pay their taxes? Ok, a grooms wage is not the highest paid, but neither is my job! I dont have a choice, I have to pay!

 

[maresmaid]

Lets not confuse "insurance" with "National Insurance" (NI) Both Tax and NI are collected either through the PAYE scheme where the employer deducts the appropriate amount and pays HMRC, or if the person is self employed, then tax is payable at the end of the year after completion of a Tax Return and Self employed NI is paid weekly or monthly throughout the year. Self Employed people who's earnings are below a certain threshold can apply for exemption from paying Self Employed NI on the ground of their low earnings. Non of this has anything to do with Insurance. Insurance is something you take out to cover accidents / injury's etc etc - you do not pay the government for this type of cover, and the cost of this type of cover is a business expense which can be deducted from your income before your final earnings are calculated for tax purposes. Therefore just because some one has no "Insurance" it does not mean that they are not paying Tax or NI and it does not mean that they may be claiming benefits whilst working.

Having said that I am not impressed with people who claim benefits whilst working and if I had CONCRETE EVIDENCE that someone was doing that I would be tempted to report them, but I would judge the case in individual circumstances, there are for example certain circumstances where people can claim benefits, but are still allowed to work and earn money on a Sunday without it affecting their claim, if we are only talking about an odd £10 or £15 here and there it seems petty and unnecessary to stir up trouble for someone. If I thought someone was "fiddling" the system I just wouldn't employ them, but I would never assume that every freelance groom or instructor was not conducting their affairs in an honest way.

 

[maresmaid]

Its not about tax. its about benefits usually, did anyone point out that the employer will be liable for the tax and the national insurance as they are employing people and avoiding payment., to be self employed one has to use one s own tools and not charge per hour.
How may grooms do that? None!

^^ This is wrong! Self employed people can charge by the hour, and can use the clients tools, although if the tools are not available the onus would be on the self employed person to provide them, rather than insist the the client provide them.

 

[BBH]

For me its need not greed.

If someone earns a few quid on the side it doesn't bother me at all.

TBH an awful lot of horse business is done by way of a ' gentlemans agreement'. I wouldn't say anything.

What I didn't realise though as I was told by a builder was that if you pay someone cash in hand you are apparently complicit in the frauding of the tax dept as you knowingly gave someone cash thats not going through the books. How this would be proved I don't know.

However I can't stand benefit cheats and would happily dobb one of them in.

 

[FionaM12]

My partners father pays 50% tax (yes big bucks)

So does my brother. But can we be clear here, it's NOT 50% of what they earn as stated in an earlier post?!! The 50% kicks in on any amount earned over £150,000.

So, if you earn £155,000 you pay the 50% of £5,000. On top of what you pay for the £499,000 of course.

Even my brother, who endlessly complains about his tax bil, doesn't try to tell me he pays 50% of his earnings!

 

[jsr]

In this situation no I wouldn't report them but I have reported people who are claiming 'diability' benefits then blatantly working. I don't begrudge anyone a few quid cash in hand for a job well done but I certainly do begrudge scrounging greedy bar stewards who are laughing in the face of those of us who've worked full time all their lives and never taken anything.

 

[Spyda]

Nope.

 

[ester]

ditto spiral, £350 for a 2 bed house! somerset you can get a studio for that just, a 1 bed for £400 ish. I currently have a very good deal on current place due to the landlord not wanting to earn too much money.

Car running costs, I basically have this car though the total is now out of date as petrol and tax are somewhat higher (my insurance is also a little more).

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/car/car-costs.html

£2.5k

back to the thread, I think the initial assumption is likely wrong!

 

[xspiralx]

Gosh I totally forgot about car insurance!

So you can add another £350 or so onto your car running costs for that!

 

[Damnation]

I have reported someone in the past.
She was a great *****stirrer and was claiming disability benefits, whilst working over the legal hours and earing over the legal wage that was attached to the benefit.
(She could work a certain amount of hours and earn a certain amount on the benefit.. but she was earning way more!), and I knew full well she wasn't on the books.

 

[bananas_22]

This all started with the OP assuming that because someone wasn't insured then they wouldn't be paying tax. In my professional life if I ever hear the words "I assumed" then I pull the person up short and take them to task. Assumption gets a lot of people into trouble ....... So my advice is to stop assuming and get on with your life.

This ^^

 

[The_snoopster]

Personally no I am in the cannot be arsed gang, however they should pay NI and tax no matter how big or small the wages are. I clean for a living and trust me the wages are very low but that does not make it ok to not pay my way in life. And as for the NI contributions of course if you pay nothing you supposed to not get a pension, well if that was the case there would be 1000,s of starving homeless people sleeping in doorways, of course the state will give them enough to live on.
Wether someone is a proffessional scrounger off the state (and believe me these people do make it a career) or wether its someone making the odd few quid to supplement a low wage or if its a top earner they should all pay their way in life via tax and NI.

 

[Hippona]

I think if its the odd tenner being earnt here and there, then ok, but if these people are earning a regular wage, albeit small, then why shouldnt they pay their taxes? Ok, a grooms wage is not the highest paid, but neither is my job! I dont have a choice, I have to pay!

^^^

Lots of people earn minimum wage...taxes and NI contributions allow for this....we are all supposed to pay proportionately aren't we? To make it fair? Why should some pay and not others?

The main argument on here seems to be that if grooms were forced to pay the correct amount of tax they might have to put their rates up......and those using the service would have to pay more

 

[honetpot]

You can employ someone for 16 hours a week if the wage is under a certain amount and not pay tax and NI. You have to take their details and they should not have any other income or benifits. That why Tesco employ loads of students on part-time hours.
To register as self employed is not difficult and yes you do pay a stamp but you can claim valid expenses, mileage, 40p a mile, equipment etc, against any tax you would pay.
I think so many people are scared of our tax system and if you are claiming any sort of benifit you have to earn very little before it is cut that it it forces people to take the easy way out.
They have to makes rule but I do not really see how someone making a few extra pounds a week can be compared to the ones who fiddle thousands.

 

[Black_Horse_White]

They still end up paying tax in the long run. Fuel food clothes, everything is taxed.

 

[Jerroboam]

I am a groom and whilst being self-employed (which I know longer am) my national insurance took a HUGE chunk out of my already pittiful wages. Grooms and men/women who ride out for people are only just getting by... I speak from experience, I am a groom for a very famous lady, I am treated with the upmost respect and it is only now that I am earning above minimum age, at 27 years old with all of the correct qualifications and experience. I am not moaning because its a way of life and you have to be slightly barking to do it but I have been one of the girls who, for a full time job, was paid little over £100 a week and feeding my family (I have a daughter and a husband) comes very hard. Think about WHY people work for cash in hand rather than in offices and maybe consider, the next time you sell something on ebay and make a tidy profit, will you declare that to the taxman?

 

[BBH]

I think the thing of this post on a horse forum is that most people on here would / will have either paid someone cash in hand or earnt cash in hand as cash transactions in the horse world are prolific. Its easy to hide and therefore very easily abused.

The only thing is you have to be very sure not to fall out with someone and trust them enough not to dob you in.

 

[SusieT]

SusieT - whilst I agree with your principles, your calculations seem pretty out to me!

A 2 bed house for £350 a month? Maybe in some areas I guess, but anywhere in the South East you're really looking at a minimum of £500 pcm for a really grotty studio flat, and more like £6/700 for a decent 1 bed. - Look on right move, that's what I based my calculations on. 700 would get a 3 bed house in a lot of places-so not wha tI would call essential!

So assuming about £9500 for the year take home pay...

You can rent a room in a shared house for around £400 pcm - so £4800 p/a.

Running a car - assuming doing 11k a year which would be a moderate commute and local driving, on a basic car, you can be looking at £1200 alone on petrol, plus £130 tax, £150 MOT and servicing and on average maybe £500 ish in repair and maintenance - so £2000 in total.-hence why I said bus..A car is a luxury item. If you need it for work your work fees need to be built into that. Get on the bus, get a bike and cycle to save a lot of money.

Another £1200 per year for food and groceries, if you're careful.-How do you calculate that as opposed to the 20 a week-which I assure you is very liveable on and allows for a bit of chooclate, cheap wine etc. so definitely got room to maneouever

Council tax - maybe £600 for the year your share. Fair enough, forgot about that.

Electricity/gas/water - lets say £600.

Line rental, phone and internet - £300 if you get a decent deal.-300 is extortionate. Without internet (a luxury-we are talking about people who supposedly need to scam the rest of us in order to afford electricity-NOT internet)180 is more like a reasonable rate.

Mobile phone - £120 if you're on PAYG and careful with your useage.You don't need line rental and a mobile phone if you are truely so hard off you cannot afford to pay your taxes.

TV license - £120.-tv is not an essential-you do not need a tv licence if you are skint.

See how you are talking a 'comfortable' life here and I am talking essentials-so yours adds say the council tax and line rental, I appreciate you need a phone to do basics so about 780 onto my calculation-still leaving about 2K for new clothes, presents, etc.
Still not allowing for the idea that you are so hard up that you need to steal from everyone else. Yes, it would be nice if everyone could afford a tv, internet etc. and we are very used to them these days but it is not an essential.

 

[SusieT]

'it is only now that I am earning above minimum age, at 27 years old with all of the correct qualifications and experience'
Whats wrong with that? you are still very young so have plenty of time to continue to earn mroe as your experience level grows.

 

[SusieT]

re:50% - if you earn 300K you pay about 150K tax and NI -to me that reads as a ridiculous amount of money that you earn and do not get. Maybe salaries wouldn't be so massive if you got to take home more of what you made..

 

[Honey08]

SusieT - whilst I agree with your principles, your calculations seem pretty out to me!

A 2 bed house for £350 a month? Maybe in some areas I guess, but anywhere in the South East you're really looking at a minimum of £500 pcm for a really grotty studio flat, and more like £6/700 for a decent 1 bed. - Look on right move, that's what I based my calculations on. 700 would get a 3 bed house in a lot of places-so not wha tI would call essential!

So assuming about £9500 for the year take home pay...

You can rent a room in a shared house for around £400 pcm - so £4800 p/a.

Running a car - assuming doing 11k a year which would be a moderate commute and local driving, on a basic car, you can be looking at £1200 alone on petrol, plus £130 tax, £150 MOT and servicing and on average maybe £500 ish in repair and maintenance - so £2000 in total.-hence why I said bus..A car is a luxury item. If you need it for work your work fees need to be built into that. Get on the bus, get a bike and cycle to save a lot of money.

Another £1200 per year for food and groceries, if you're careful.-How do you calculate that as opposed to the 20 a week-which I assure you is very liveable on and allows for a bit of chooclate, cheap wine etc. so definitely got room to maneouever

Council tax - maybe £600 for the year your share. Fair enough, forgot about that.

Electricity/gas/water - lets say £600.

Line rental, phone and internet - £300 if you get a decent deal.-300 is extortionate. Without internet (a luxury-we are talking about people who supposedly need to scam the rest of us in order to afford electricity-NOT internet)180 is more like a reasonable rate.

Mobile phone - £120 if you're on PAYG and careful with your useage.You don't need line rental and a mobile phone if you are truely so hard off you cannot afford to pay your taxes.

TV license - £120.-tv is not an essential-you do not need a tv licence if you are skint.

See how you are talking a 'comfortable' life here and I am talking essentials-so yours adds say the council tax and line rental, I appreciate you need a phone to do basics so about 780 onto my calculation-still leaving about 2K for new clothes, presents, etc.
Still not allowing for the idea that you are so hard up that you need to steal from everyone else. Yes, it would be nice if everyone could afford a tv, internet etc. and we are very used to them these days but it is not an essential.

Oh for goodness sake! Your calculations were very low. I've not seen a house, or flat for rent for your amount for over ten years! You can just about get a room for that much - especially in areas where the horsey jobs are, and I'm up North. You also forgot to add in paying back student loans etc, as a lot of grooms have equine degrees.

Many grooms end up living in horrible mobile homes and caravans their pay is so low. When I was a groom I certainly didn't have the equivalent of £2k to spend on myself (which is only £166 a month/40 odd a week, so not that much anyway. I was in a lucky position when I was a groom in that a grandparent died and left me enough for a deposit to buy a one room studio flat, so I didn't have to live in a caravan. I literally lived on baked beans etc. At the same time, a friend deliberately got pregnant and had a baby, and her parents declared that she had been thrown out (she hadn't). She was given a lovely two bedroomed house, all paid for, and dole money. Her income was way better than mine when I was struggling to pay my mortgage. I often wondered why I bothered!

I don't think many of us were saying that grooms shouldn't pay tax. We were saying that they do pay tax, on really low salaries, and we don't begrudge them earning the odd tenner on top for teaching/clipping. TBH I doubt that many do anymore because everyone is much more concious of being sued.

I bet that theres not one single person on here who couldn't be proven to have done something not quite legal to sell something or get a cheaper price at some point in time. However smug they come across.

I have a much bigger problem with people at the other end of the scale - millionaires who live out of the country so many months a year to avoid tax etc.

 

[FionaM12]

Oh for goodness sake! Your calculations were very low. I've not seen a house, or flat for rent for your amount for over ten years! You can just about get a room for that much - especially in areas where the horsey jobs are, and I'm up North. You also forgot to add in paying back student loans etc, as a lot of grooms have equine degrees.

Many grooms end up living in horrible mobile homes and caravans their pay is so low. When I was a groom I certainly didn't have the equivalent of £2k to spend on myself (which is only £166 a month/40 odd a week, so not that much anyway. I was in a lucky position when I was a groom in that a grandparent died and left me enough for a deposit to buy a one room studio flat, so I didn't have to live in a caravan. I literally lived on baked beans etc. At the same time, a friend deliberately got pregnant and had a baby, and her parents declared that she had been thrown out (she hadn't). She was given a lovely two bedroomed house, all paid for, and dole money. Her income was way better than mine when I was struggling to pay my mortgage. I often wondered why I bothered!

I don't think many of us were saying that grooms shouldn't pay tax. We were saying that they do pay tax, on really low salaries, and we don't begrudge them earning the odd tenner on top for teaching/clipping. TBH I doubt that many do anymore because everyone is much more concious of being sued.

I bet that theres not one single person on here who couldn't be proven to have done something not quite legal to sell something or get a cheaper price at some point in time. However smug they come across.

I have a much bigger problem with people at the other end of the scale - millionaires who live out of the country so many months a year to avoid tax etc.

Round of applause for above.

 

[FionaM12]

re:50% - if you earn 300K you pay about 150K tax and NI -to me that reads as a ridiculous amount of money that you earn and do not get. Maybe salaries wouldn't be so massive if you got to take home more of what you made..

No-one pays half what they earn! You pay 50% ONLY ON THE AMOUNT OVER £150,00 NOT the whole amount!!

If you earn £300,000 you have nothing to complain about and damn well should be paying massive tax IMO

 

[ester]

public transport would cost me more than it would save. It is possible (have done it when the car is broke) for me to combine train and cycling to get to work but the costs would be £1782 (yes I am sad and just worked it out!) for a years travel just to get to and from work. It very much depends on your location

I live and work on the A38 just 15 miles apart... buses for that route are non existant

I do agree that in general internet is not essential (I only acquired it when I needed it for working and made do with just a mobile). £20 per week is also doable grub wise .

 

[SVMel]

to be self employed one has to use one s own tools and not charge per hour.
How may grooms do that? None!

I'm not entirely sure this is right. I'm self employed and I charge by the hour.

On the original post subject:
I'm a groom, and I have no insurance, this has no bearing on whether I pay tax and NI.

My husband is the main wage earner, and is on a very low wage. I also earn a very small amount. I could claim working families tax credit, but I don't. I could also claim some housing benefit and council tax benefit, but I don't.

I also think there are worse financial cheats who need sorting maybe before small earners who are struggling to make ends meet.

 

[Jenni_]

I work 3 jobs. 2 of which I pay tax for, but I don't declare my earnings for teaching 3 lessons a week to a local girl.

My money goes on junkies, teenage mums and lay abouts, a lot of which I know around here seem to be able to afford horses quite easily - where as I can't despite the 3 jobs, and am struggling to find rides in my area at the minute.

The money I make from teaching gets pumped back into lessons / competitions when I have a horse to ride.

I would perhaps tell if it was their only job - they will only pay tax on anything over 7475 quid a year usually- but for someone who works there arse off to make a good living, And still struggles - i think it would be unfair. At least they are not on the dole scrounging Off tax payers - they are just not paying tax!

 

[Jenni_]

Also - I could take on a 3rd legal job, but take away that opportunity to work for maybe someone else who doesn't have a job and really wants one. I have different skills so i will use them.

I'd be pissed off if someone grudged me the wee bit extra cash I earn on the side, the result of working for years for nothing / below minimum wage to gain the experience!!