Would you use a stallion like this?

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jcwh

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non graded stallion with no competition history as he isn't even broken in / backed due to injury sustained as colt.
gentle and very pretty, and homozygous tobiano.
nice bloodlines though, well bred
stud fee relatively high up in the 300-500 pound range.

would you use something like this?

a lot of you here are pro-responsible breeding for a successful foal, lessening chances of an "ugly" foal or something destined for meats.
but it looks to me that apart from the bloodlines that this stallion has, as he has no "proof" of competition or even ridden, people use him for his color only?

opinions please.
 
Personally no, even if not backed could have been shown in hand.
If he has such nice bloodlines, why not graded?

You can use Something like Sambertino for £600 so i would go with something more proven if i were looking.
 
Far too many bred for colour only and that led to a whole lot of sub-standard stock flooding the market. There are lots of graded stallions out there. If I was you, I'd keep looking.
 
ah! i'm not looking at all! i was just wondering, why so many people have used said stallion.
people say "we dont breed for color, this one's got great lineage!" but i mean, he's not graded for ***'s sake.
and he's booked quite a lot if i may add.
he's not graded because of injury sustained as colt.
 
There is no justification in the stud fee especially with the market the way it is so a no from me as well. TBH even if his stud fee was £200 I would still be put off using him, not worth the gamble until you can see what his stock are like.
 
jcwh said:
non graded stallion with no competition history as he isn't even broken in / backed due to injury sustained as colt.
gentle and very pretty, and homozygous tobiano.
nice bloodlines though, well bred
stud fee relatively high up in the 300-500 pound range.

would you use something like this?

a lot of you here are pro-responsible breeding for a successful foal, lessening chances of an "ugly" foal or something destined for meats.
but it looks to me that apart from the bloodlines that this stallion has, as he has no "proof" of competition or even ridden, people use him for his color only?

opinions please.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to Buenno???
 
Oh for pity sake jcwh, why do it if it is directed at someone one here? May I remind you that people got all shirty when anything was said about (at the time) another ungraded stallion. It is a personal preference not to use an ungraded stallion but I have seen graded coloureds that are far worse then this one if this is in fact the one you are referring to. Sorry but there are far worse out there graded or otherwise, but no I would not use him.
 
This is a very political question BUT regardless of who it is aimed at, one thing you need to ask is....were some of the best Irish sires graded or competed? Master Imp, etc...not to mention TB sires who are not required to be graded.....whether raced or not. The likes of Primitive Proposal proved themselves to be superb sires and the likes of PP were only graded last year and only ridden lightly...but the proof is in the progeny. There are many top stallions that have not been graded or ridden...for whatever reasons...and gone on to be good sires...I think it comes down to mare owner choice...if they want to use them so be it. If you are in fact referring to Buenno then I would have to agree with Magic that there is far far worse out there and far less proven as the stock he has on the ground so far that I have seen have been super!
 
magic104 said:
There is no justification in the stud fee especially with the market the way it is so a no from me as well. TBH even if his stud fee was £200 I would still be put off using him, not worth the gamble until you can see what his stock are like.
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Catch 22 isn't it?

I can see both sides and appreciate why people are leery of using an unproven stallion.

He has to be bred from to produce stock so that you know what he produces but to produce stock you have to risk producing something dreadful.

But then...it does takes two to tango.
Mares have to be considered equally as responsible for her contribution to the gene pool, one mare may throw a cracking foal, another may not, the poor old stallion can't be blamed for it all.
 
Opie said:
Are you referring to Buenno???
Click to expand...

magic104 said:
Oh for pity sake jcwh, why do it if it is directed at someone one here? May I remind you that people got all shirty when anything was said about (at the time) another ungraded stallion. It is a personal preference not to use an ungraded stallion but I have seen graded coloureds that are far worse then this one if this is in fact the one you are referring to. Sorry but there are far worse out there graded or otherwise, but no I would not use him.
Click to expand...

this was not directed at anyone.
this stallion is hypothetical, in order to know whether people would use a stallion just for his color and pedigree..

magic104, i would appreciate it if you didn't just assume i was directing this at anyone, much less anyone on here. although i can understand why, this really isn't directed at anyone, and opie was just asking a question.
maybe next time you could use a nicer tone? i really don't think i deserved that "for pity's sake" ... :(
 
I do think that people are now very quick to jump to conclusion due to previous "trolls"

I didnt see anyway that this could have been a dig or a finger pointing exercise.

Stand by what i orginally posted!
 
jcwh said:
ah! i'm not looking at all! i was just wondering, why so many people have used said stallion.
people say "we dont breed for color, this one's got great lineage!" but i mean, he's not graded for ***'s sake.
and he's booked quite a lot if i may add.
he's not graded because of injury sustained as colt.
Click to expand...

dianchi you commented before the above was posted - jcwh if you are now saying it is a "hypothetical" stallion you seem to get a bit worked up by people using him - ie by saying "he's not graded for ***'s sake" ???

I don't know the one whose name has been mentioned here or his offspring but your original post was non confrontational - the second, above, did seem quite personal

In answer to your question though, I would not use an ungraded stallion. Foal sales can be tricky enough today without the added problem of using an ungraded stallion. I also think I am right in saying that at some point offspring from ungraded stallions will not be allowed at the Futurity series.
 
oh, it wasn't the hypothetical stallion that made me say "why use an ungraded stallion for ***'s sake". it was a friend of mine, who's got this conformationally poor pony mare and puts her in foal with her neighbor's stallion, who's got NO breed history at all, and isn't even an excuse of a stallion.
 
i think all stallions should be graded, and those grading marks should be available for mare owners to see, so that they can make their decisions more informed. we can see competition results from affiliated sports, so why not grading scores?

so to answer the original question, i would not use this stallion because he is not graded - however i do not have a problem in using a homozygous stallion if i want a coloured foal, i just have to accept that the stallion will probably not be as good as some others.

similarly, if i were to buy a coloured foal, i would not expect one from a homozygous mare to be as good as one from a heterozygous mare. colour should be a bonus, not a goal.
 
No, I would not use an unapproved stallion. There are so many stallions out there to choose from who have records.
Just the same as I would not use an unapproved mare either. The mare would cause less risk to the horse population than a stallion though.
 
jcwh said:
non graded stallion with no competition history as he isn't even broken in / backed due to injury sustained as colt.
gentle and very pretty, and homozygous tobiano.
nice bloodlines though, well bred
stud fee relatively high up in the 300-500 pound range.
Click to expand...

This is a lot of information for a "hypothetical" stallion ;) I think this is why people jumped to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that you were referring to a particular stallion.
 
I would use an unapproved stallion and have some lovely horses from non-graded stallions.

Many horses currently at the top level of eventing are by sires who were not graded and had no competition results to back them up.

regarding your 'hypothetical' stallion in the OP, impossible to comment without seeing him/ knowing the bloodlines etc.
 
millitiger said:
I would use an unapproved stallion and have some lovely horses from non-graded stallions.

Many horses currently at the top level of eventing are by sires who were not graded and had no competition results to back them up.

regarding your 'hypothetical' stallion in the OP, impossible to comment without seeing him/ knowing the bloodlines etc.
Click to expand...

so you would use an ungraded sire as long as he's good enough looking (conformationally of course) and well tempered?
i'm really just using the information here to get insight if i were ever to breed, would i even look at an ungraded stallion? are some of them worth looking at?
you know what i mean? or are all ungraded stallions just...well...ungraded for a reason.
 
To me there is though a big difference bewteen ungraded, into which category a lot of UK stallions will fall, and failed grading.

I wouldn't use a failed stallion, and would be very interested to know if he was then accepted by another society. Probably due to starting my breeding career when the HIS-as-was was the place for a TB I would, and have, used 'ungraded' stallions. The gamble is that in the meantime they are not presented, and fail.
 
As Chrissie I says I would not use one that had FAILED a grading (especially for something major) however using an ungraded one is different as it does depend on WHY...I used my young colt last year who I was set to present for grading this spring....wanted to get a head start myself and get some foals on the ground....however he tragically died late last year due to colic.....however would I use a young stallion like him again....yes.
 
This is a subject that opens a can of worms!!!
I have used an ungraded stallion and may do so again?? He was young had the bloodlines and i had every intention of trying to graded him, but it didnt happen and he was gelded but the foal i had was super and was sold to an eventing home, with a full pedigree passport. My Trakehner stallion isnt fully graded only pre assessed?? im hopeing to grade him fully but my time constraints and the fact im so busy, means he may not go, but i will still use him rightly or wrongly, his bloodlines suggest he is good enough and the main zfdp man is keen to see him again, i can also register foals as part breds.
A few well known stallions failed there gradings but have now past on there performance, would you not use them??? Hickstead did now look how popular he is!!!
 
chrissie makes an interesting point.

what about stallions who have failed with one studbook (not on "maturity" issues), but are then presented to another and pass.

would you use them?
 
jcwh said:
so you would use an ungraded sire as long as he's good enough looking (conformationally of course) and well tempered?
i'm really just using the information here to get insight if i were ever to breed, would i even look at an ungraded stallion? are some of them worth looking at?
you know what i mean? or are all ungraded stallions just...well...ungraded for a reason.
Click to expand...

good conformation, good bloodlines, good temperament, good movement/scope to do what I want- yes, I would use it and I wouldn't be too concerned about whether it was graded or not.

As i said, plenty of horses out there performing at the very top of eventing are by ungraded stallions or stallions who were graded after themselves/stock were proving themselves (Fleetwater Opposition anyone??? ;))
 
prosoup said:
chrissie makes an interesting point.

what about stallions who have failed with one studbook (not on "maturity" issues), but are then presented to another and pass.

would you use them?
Click to expand...

I think that comes down to what it was failed on (and this is why gradings need to be much more transparent).

For example, I would still be interested in a stallion like Mister Maccondy even though he has failed his grading but it depends so much on what he was failed for.
 
There is a very exciting young stallion here in germany who failed his grading with his birth studbook, but was purchased and then presented, and graded with a different one. His birth studbook has now accepted him too, but there was plenty of interest in him here even after he failed his initial grading.

I have used an ungraded stallion in the past and possibly would do again, if I knew why he had never been presented and the reason sat comfortably with me. But he would have to tick all the criteria I had set and to be fair there are plenty of graded stallions to choose from.
 
jcwh said:
non graded stallion with no competition history as he isn't even broken in / backed due to injury sustained as colt.
gentle and very pretty, and homozygous tobiano.
nice bloodlines though, well bred
stud fee relatively high up in the 300-500 pound range.

would you use something like this?

a lot of you here are pro-responsible breeding for a successful foal, lessening chances of an "ugly" foal or something destined for meats.
but it looks to me that apart from the bloodlines that this stallion has, as he has no "proof" of competition or even ridden, people use him for his color only?

opinions please.
Click to expand...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ah! i'm not looking at all! i was just wondering, why so many people have used said stallion.
people say "we dont breed for color, this one's got great lineage!" but i mean, he's not graded for ***'s sake.
and he's booked quite a lot if i may add.
he's not graded because of injury sustained as colt.

this was not directed at anyone.
this stallion is hypothetical, in order to know whether people would use a stallion just for his color and pedigree..

Sorry have I missed something here, read again what you put & then tell me I was mistaken in assuming this was about a real stallion rather then an hypothetical one.
magic104, i would appreciate it if you didn't just assume i was directing this at anyone,

What would you like us to assume then when it matches almost exactly Buenno. And do you see the question mark on the end "Oh for pity sake jcwh, why do it if it is directed at someone one here?" That is what it is a question not a statement or an assumption. Perhaps you should just name the horse you are referring to save us all making an ass of u and me.
 
Just to turn it around in the original post, Would you breed from a mare that:
is not graded with no competition history as she isn't even broken in / backed due to injury sustained as filly.
gentle and very pretty, and homozygous tobiano.
nice bloodlines though, well bred??

There always seems to be a big debate regarding using unproven stallions, so why use an unproven mare??!!

(sorry if hijacking )
 
Would very much depend on the injury, if a genuine field type injury, everything else being equal, probably. The colour wouldn't come into it.

Plenty of racehorses are retired and bred from that are average at best, but have fabulous bloodlines. Doesn't make it a good idea, but is the same thing.
 
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