WOW Saddle on eBay not as described

LouiseHa58, maybe a little OTT regarding potential legal ramifications, however I totally understand how insanely irritating busybody keyboard warriors get...on here especially. The majority of posters aren't taking the OP's grumble too seriously anyway so I hope it hasn't caused too much in the way of stress.
Anyone interested could quite easily contact you re: the saddle via eBay or mobile, ask questions/request more photos etc so I'd forget the whingers :)
 
talk about a complete overreaction.

I'm starting to think the saddle seller doesn't have much experience of buying/selling saddles on eBay. I wonder if pointing them in the direction of some of the horror story saddle selling threads (does anyone remember the one about the person who sold a saddle, needed to pay a refund as it wasn't as described but had spent the money on another saddle so couldn't and also had no oven or fridge or something?) would help them see why people are very suspicious about adverts especially if they think the saddle doesn't look right.

Imo, neither party have gone about this well. I don't see what's defamatory about saying the saddle is not brand new if it's not brand new. an 8 year old saddle, no matter the condition, is not brand new to me. It can be unused - like brand new, or unused - still in original packaging, or used - like new etc. but if it is 8 years old then sorry, it's not brand new. and if it has been ridden in and put on a horse even once, it is used I'm afraid.
On top of that, the OP did go a bit far to say she felt that the seller was ripping someone off. However, this all would have been solved if the seller had clarified the saddle was infact, 8 years old, and not described as brand new in the original description. Again, this seems like a misunderstanding on 2 parts. And not something worth legal action over as most people would come to that conclusion I think.

I can also understand stupid eBay questions, I got them when selling a Barnsby saddle but I was honest. Stated it was used, had marks, rips, sunfading etc and never had any problem from the buyer as there was no more information I could include. When you have items like this, thats' the information you need to sell successfully, so no one has any questions like this that allows them to jump to conclusions.
 
I am sorry it has got stupid but ultimately brought about by the OP getting carried away with what several people tried to point out was not their problem,they obviously had no intention of buying it but seemed to go out of their way to rubbish the advert which to my mind is wrong ! indeed it was merely inexperienced sellers on Ebay who innocently could have worded the advert better. However anybody prepared to spend that amount of money on a saddle I am sure would have the knowledge to know what they were buying.
I am afraid OP your initial rantings really gave the impression that you were trying to rubbish the article and a sale which ultimately can lead to legal redress as you cannot hide behind a username on here. I know what I would do if I was you to try and take the heat out of the situation and do it on here as unpalatable as that may be.Next time think twice of all the possibilities not everybody are so at home using ebay etc to sell things and I am sure ebay was not the first port of call to sell the saddle. As you know now the horse world is a small world and people get to know and fight back, So maybe important lesson learnt.
 
sarahw123 said:
LouiseHa58, maybe a little OTT regarding potential legal ramifications, however I totally understand how insanely irritating busybody keyboard warriors get...on here especially. The majority of posters aren't taking the OP's grumble too seriously anyway so I hope it hasn't caused too much in the way of stress.
Anyone interested could quite easily contact you re: the saddle via eBay or mobile, ask questions/request more photos etc so I'd forget the whingers :)
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I think most on this thread who have commented would totally agree with this.

Good luck selling the saddle but as you have found out to your cost Ebay can be a nightmare !!!!!!!
 
I never received a reply to my query.

If your husband did a reply in his email rather than using ebay message centre, this is not uncommon, but my message centre shows no reply. (Later correction, it is now in my in box)

I'm sorry you were upset, and I'm even sorrier about your health problems. Good luck with selling your saddle and with your future health.
 
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Good morning Sasquatch

You have made some valid points but from a position of not knowing the back story of ycbm. These are my husbands words:-

1. I use EBay regularly both buying and selling and have a 100% reputation as ycbm could see.
2. After 50 years of riding I have a tack room full of saddles but have neither sold nor bought one on EBay.
3. I find 99% of people on EBay 100% if asked correct questions and when I buy if it is an expensive item I have always rung the vendor and judged the item by asking all the questions necessary.
4. I described the item as NEW (Other - with a full description that it had only been on the horse for a fitting and one outing) which was over describing its use as the outing was simply the day of the fitting and just around our ménage for the purpose of building the saddle to fit the horse.
5. I was contacted through EBay with a question asking the age of the saddle from "ycbm" @ 15:58 on 17th December.
6. I replied to "ycbm" @ 1603 on 17th December just minutes after her asking the question confirming that it was bought years ago.
7. I amended the description on my own volition to avoid doubt adding that the saddle had been bought "approx. 8 years ago".
8. If "ycbm" felt the description was misleading why did she not return via EBay questions and suggest an amendment?
9. The fact that "ycbm" did not ask or suggest to me that the advert could mislead via the proper channel, the EBay questions, which she had already used suggests that she must had had an ulterior motive.
10. The fact she did not start the H & H thread until 16:52 on 17th December nearly an hour after I had answered her and giving her plenty of time to have asked further questions, confirms my view of her intentions above.

The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it. I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
 
Good morning Sasquatch

You have made some valid points but from a position of not knowing the back story of ycbm. These are my husbands words:-

1. I use EBay regularly both buying and selling and have a 100% reputation as ycbm could see.
2. After 50 years of riding I have a tack room full of saddles but have neither sold nor bought one on EBay.
3. I find 99% of people on EBay 100% if asked correct questions and when I buy if it is an expensive item I have always rung the vendor and judged the item by asking all the questions necessary.
4. I described the item as NEW (Other - with a full description that it had only been on the horse for a fitting and one outing) which was over describing its use as the outing was simply the day of the fitting and just around our ménage for the purpose of building the saddle to fit the horse.
5. I was contacted through EBay with a question asking the age of the saddle from "ycbm" @ 15:58 on 17th December.
6. I replied to "ycbm" @ 1603 on 17th December just minutes after her asking the question confirming that it was bought years ago.
7. I amended the description on my own volition to avoid doubt adding that the saddle had been bought "approx. 8 years ago".
8. If "ycbm" felt the description was misleading why did she not return via EBay questions and suggest an amendment?
9. The fact that "ycbm" did not ask or suggest to me that the advert could mislead via the proper channel, the EBay questions, which she had already used suggests that she must had had an ulterior motive.
10. The fact she did not start the H & H thread until 16:52 on 17th December nearly an hour after I had answered her and giving her plenty of time to have asked further questions, confirms my view of her intentions above.

The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it. I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
 
Good morning "ycbm" I have just read your words, "I'm sorry you were upset, and I'm even sorrier about your health problems", but it has to be said I am only upset because of the words you have used. May I suggest in future, before you go to a form and use words such as "Fraudulent" and "Deliberately misleading" that you strike up a conversation with someone on any of the available contact modes. Even more importantly the tone of the points of which you wanted make to everyone else and for some reason not to my husband, the vendor were simply unacceptable. You have indeed for absolutely no reason at all put me through immense distress but I have had some lovely contacts on this forum which has restored my faith in human nature including a delightful person giving me advice on pain management. It is a great shame you cannot be more like her.

Any suggestions you had about the WOW saddle would have been graciously received had you approached the situation in a more measured manner and directly as opposed to involving the whole of this forum and even now WOW on Google search! Perhaps you should think about deleting these comments. Louise.
 
Christ I don't think we really needed the full lowdown on someone's health issues just because of a saddle for sale.

there were clear inaccuracies in the posting (including price paid) and even now given the tree difference etc compared to current saddles I don't think you can say that it would cost £2600 today. I suspect that none of the inaccuracies were to to deliberately mislead but that doesn't stop them being there and I am not sure why ycmb should be expected to head into potentially lengthy discussions over ebay with someone they don't know and whom she has no juristiction over in order for them to be corrected.
 
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ester said:
Christ I don't think we really needed the full lowdown on someone's health issues just because of a saddle for sale.
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Glad you said that, my head was in a spin. I for one was quite interested in the OP (though it's a strange topic to start a post on), as someone who was, until recently, in the market for another Wow. I ended up buying one I could go and look at, as I have previously been stung by exactly the problem that the OP was trying to warn people about with the non-interchangable old style of panels.

Whatever the method, I'm glad there are helpful people about - many of us Wow owners will happily buy a saddle that is 2/3 of what we need, knowing the remaining element can be changed.Not easy at all to swap parts if they are actually not all of the same design.

Sorry to the seller that it has caused them such a headache, but it is a warning to all parties really, about buying and selling from a distance.
 
The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it. I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ay-not-as-described/page4#5dvmTxyMoV30fJV3.99
 
The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it. I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ay-not-as-described/page4#5dvmTxyMoV30fJV3.99
 
sasquatch said:
Imo, neither party have gone about this well. I don't see what's defamatory about saying the saddle is not brand new if it's not brand new. an 8 year old saddle, no matter the condition, is not brand new to me. It can be unused - like brand new, or unused - still in original packaging, or used - like new etc. but if it is 8 years old then sorry, it's not brand new. and if it has been ridden in and put on a horse even once, it is used I'm afraid.
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So where do you draw the line? by your reasoning no clothing bought in shops is brand new as it has all been tried on at least once (probably by you before you purchase it!), by your reasoning thousands of ebay listings are wrong as that top/shoes/toaster that has been sitting in the cupboard for a couple of years still in its pack with its original labels cant be advertised as new with labels, or heck that saddle the saddler bought from the manufacturer and has been sitting in his show room for 3 or 4 years as no one wanted it cant be sold as brand new as it was manufactured several years ago!

Grow up, it has nothing to do with you and if the OP was actualy that bothered it is easy enough to report listings to Ebay!
 
ester said:
Christ I don't think we really needed the full lowdown on someone's health issues just because of a saddle for sale.

there were clear inaccuracies in the posting (including price paid) and even now given the tree difference etc compared to current saddles I don't think you can say that it would cost £2600 today. I suspect that none of the inaccuracies were to to deliberately mislead but that doesn't stop them being there and I am not sure why ycmb should be expected to head into potentially lengthy discussions over ebay with someone they don't know and whom she has no juristiction over in order for them to be corrected.
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With bells on. *yawn*
 
Right, I am only on this thread because of "ycbm", the health history was specifically for "ycbm". I have been advised that I cannot let such defamatory accusations brought into a public forum and even on a Google search go unanswered. How difficult could it have been for her to have asked further questions or make suggestions directly? She issued a warning which is far beyond an opinion and her words have many more ramifications. I should know I have been lectured about them all weekend. My husband took advice from a reputably saddler on pricing. If people are unhappy about the pricing please blame her. I will not disappoint if someone wishes to buy it at the price it is but quite frankly I'm as happy as I was before, running my hand across the saddle and saying in my head, "One day I will ride again and I will beat this", and as for EBay I have never been near it before, I tend to spend money as opposed to recoup it. My husband on the other hand is far more rational. Now I think everyone should stop worrying about it, stop concerning yourselves with it and many thanks for all the positive replies I've had from lovely people. Louise.
 
In legal terms the saddle is (Nearly) unused but at 8 years old it is certainly not new - yet the seller still seems to insist it is. Items depreciate with age, as well as use, especially with the advent of the new technologies found in saddles. It is highly misleading to claim that it would cost £2600 new - it simply wouldn't as the saddle is outdated and cannot be compared to a modern equivalent.

To the seller - your legal friends will tell you that it is never a good idea to sue on a matter of principle. Plus you cannot sue for defamation if what is said is true. At the end of the day you are still claiming an 8yo saddle is new - it isn't. You are also claiming it would cost £2600 to replace on the retail price - it wouldn't. It is easy to get an idea of market value with a little search - old style WOW saddles resell for between £850 and £1200 depending on condition. A used new style seems to resale seems to resell for £1300-£1500.

Sorry to hear about your troubles with your health. I hope you can get past this, place a more realistic ad, and have a lovely Christmas.
 
LouiseHa58 said:
.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
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This is also what happens with selling online, and selling a high value item on a site like ebay where there are horror stories regarding people spending thousands, and receiving a not as described saddle and not being able to get their money back or vice versa.

I have sold a saddle through ebay, however it was £100 and the price matched the condition that I was very open about and said I wasn't aware of the age but knew it had been with my horse for at least 5 years and invited people to ask for more photos.
Now, if I was selling my Albion, I wouldn't do it through ebay as it is a high value saddle and I wouldn't want to risk anything going wrong.
No one has said you and your husband aren't educated horse people, and obviously you are not. However, having not sold a saddle before I can understand why you may not have realised to add some things in to the description. I did a lot of research and asked questions on this forum before I sold mine regarding selling a saddle, what I could do to safegaurd myself incase the buyer said it wasn't as described or damaged, what I needed to put into the description etc and it was definitely much more than when I sell a pair of shoes or an item without as much value (and this was only a £100 saddle!)

I don't see why a criminal psychologist would want to get involved in this, and do think you have overreacted by saying you are involving lawyers. Imo, you were deserved an apology from ycmb who had genuine questions, but also jumped to conclusions. By threatening the use of lawyers for something that is clearly a misunderstanding I feel you have lost any moral high ground you may have had.
Unfortunately, for saddles, especially popular, big name, expensive saddles, there often are fraudulent sellers. When you post anything on the internet, you open it up to criticism and people are allowed to question if the advert is legitimate or not. On top of that, I'm not sure you can try and prosecute someone on just your views of ycbm's intentions, especially when ycmb will be able to argue your view is not correct. Now I am not a lawyer, but have a reasonable understanding of civil cases, and something like this will quite probably end up as a 'he said-she said' type thing and normally they go absolutely nowhere.

It's also good to remember that not all messages send/get through as quickly or as easily as you think. I have only just had a message from a seller on ebay regarding a pair of shoes I sold 3 months ago come through. It happens, and could have been a simple thing of ycbm not receiving a notification of the message until much later, or a problem with messages being sent/received. I am in no means defending ycbm, however think that there is a big misunderstanding and on both parts a private message explaining what you have posted here, in maybe slightly different wording, would have been a much better way to resolve this instead of putting it on a forum. And I do think ycbm should have corresponded with you before making a forum post on assumptions and suspicions.

I'm glad you have found an alternative (and safer!) way to sell your saddle, and hope you can get some relief for your arthritis and will be able to begin riding again. I am under investigation for a knee injury that occurred last year, which could be anything from a torn ACL to arthritis so can understand being in a lot of pain, and how restricting and upsetting it is.

I think this has been a lesson to both seller and OP, I hadn't commented on this thread before now as I thought OP was just overreacting and their query was then answered re. age of the saddle and believed it would be dropped after that. If anything, think of it as a positive that your saddle has had more views and people have examined it to be able to come to their own conclusions and the majority are not in agreement with the OP.

I'd like to thank you for addressing all the questions people on this thread have had regarding your saddle, and hope that you're able to sell it now hassle free and make a good return on it. Hoping you have a good Christmas, and New Year as well, thank you.
 
Looking at the description it is obvious the seller isn't that knowledgeable about the Wow system, i.e. no details about seat size, type of panels, head plate, etc., all things someone wanting one of these saddles would want to know, and the ad says it'll fit around a horse around 15.2-16hh, size of horse is irrelevant for most saddles I'd have thought! However, I do think it was misleading not to say it is 8 years old on the advert initially. The seller waited to be promoted by the OP to do this. the owners health problems, however awful, are irrelevant. I've been looking at Wow's a lot recently. I've been buying and selling a few to get the right parts I need. I've bought 2006/2007 models with the resin seats for £450-£570, 2011/2012 models I've bought for £700-£800. They've all been in decent condition, not unused, but good condition. I definitely wouldn't pay more than £600 for a model of this age with a resin seat, no matter how good its condition was.
 
I'm incredulous that a criminal.psychologist can diagnose a "pathological" mental need from one forum post and one eBay question. With instantaneous distance diagnostic abilities like that I bet they are in huge demand.
 
Llanali said:
I'm incredulous that a criminal.psychologist can diagnose a "pathological" mental need from one forum post and one eBay question. With instantaneous distance diagnostic abilities like that I bet they are in huge demand.
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I read that post out to my house guests and hilarity ensued ;)
 
Llanali said:
Glad to be of service JFTD.
It was the stand out point of the whole thread for me.
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Just for clarity, I meant the saddle owner's post was read out for humorous purposes - with reference to the bit you're referring to. Not your post, which I don't see any cause to mock, although I did chuckle at your comment.
 
conniegirl said:
So where do you draw the line? by your reasoning no clothing bought in shops is brand new as it has all been tried on at least once (probably by you before you purchase it!), by your reasoning thousands of ebay listings are wrong as that top/shoes/toaster that has been sitting in the cupboard for a couple of years still in its pack with its original labels cant be advertised as new with labels, or heck that saddle the saddler bought from the manufacturer and has been sitting in his show room for 3 or 4 years as no one wanted it cant be sold as brand new as it was manufactured several years ago!

Grow up, it has nothing to do with you and if the OP was actualy that bothered it is easy enough to report listings to Ebay!
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Well if it is 3/4 years old it isn't brand new, it's been sat on a shelf for 3/4 years. So it could be advertised as new - unopened/original packaging and that is why sellers notes are there.

Clothes in a shop that have been tried on once in a changing room, taken off and given back to the changing room attendant or clothes that have been bought online, tried on, and sent back when they don't fit with the labels attached and no damage, imo a bit different to a saddle that has been purchased, tried on, fitted to the horse, and used once. Much like if I bought a dress from a shop, took it home, wore it to one fancy do for 2/3 hours, then sold it on. The dress has been used, yes it was used once, and is probably like new, but I can't say it's brand new because it's been worn even if it was only for 2/3 hours to watch someone collect an award. Most places don't let you bring shoes back if they've been worn outside and there's no obvious fault with them, even if they were only worn for 5 minutes to go and put the bins out. That's why there's various options under the 'new' category on ebay, and the chance for sellers to include more details.

I didn't say something unopened couldn't be sold as new, just that it couldn't be sold as brand new. If it's been sat on a shelf in a box for a few years, it hasn't been used but you can't advertise it as being brand new, which I take to mean as being the newest version of the product. For example, I would not sell an unopened iphone 5 that had been sitting around in the box for 2 years as brand new, even though it had never been opened. The serial number would confirm the product was manufactured 2 years ago (and the process may have changed in that time to improve/update parts used in the product) and not be the same as the product being sold under the same brand/make/model as one that was manufactured within the past year.

I'm simply giving my opinion on a situation. This is a public forum, we are allowed to do that. And I've said I feel this could have been dealt better by both parties, in private, instead of it all airing on a public forum where anyone can read or comment.
 
sasquatch said:
Well if it is 3/4 years old it isn't brand new, it's been sat on a shelf for 3/4 years. So it could be advertised as new - unopened/original packaging and that is why sellers notes are there.

Clothes in a shop that have been tried on once in a changing room, taken off and given back to the changing room attendant or clothes that have been bought online, tried on, and sent back when they don't fit with the labels attached and no damage, imo a bit different to a saddle that has been purchased, tried on, fitted to the horse, and used once. Much like if I bought a dress from a shop, took it home, wore it to one fancy do for 2/3 hours, then sold it on. The dress has been used, yes it was used once, and is probably like new, but I can't say it's brand new because it's been worn even if it was only for 2/3 hours to watch someone collect an award. Most places don't let you bring shoes back if they've been worn outside and there's no obvious fault with them, even if they were only worn for 5 minutes to go and put the bins out. That's why there's various options under the 'new' category on ebay, and the chance for sellers to include more details.

I didn't say something unopened couldn't be sold as new, just that it couldn't be sold as brand new. If it's been sat on a shelf in a box for a few years, it hasn't been used but you can't advertise it as being brand new, which I take to mean as being the newest version of the product. For example, I would not sell an unopened iphone 5 that had been sitting around in the box for 2 years as brand new, even though it had never been opened. The serial number would confirm the product was manufactured 2 years ago (and the process may have changed in that time to improve/update parts used in the product) and not be the same as the product being sold under the same brand/make/model as one that was manufactured within the past year.
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That is your view, it is not the majority view and it is not the view of ebay either, you will find plenty of brand new unopened Iphone 5's out there, heck you can even buy them from high street shops!
The saddle has been tried on and fitted, not used, which is exactly the same as trying a dress on and maybe doing up the integral belt a bit tighter than it was on the hanger.
 
I think we are trying to draw similarities where there are none. iphones are boxed, saddles are not adjusted in the same way as belts...

I also thought the lack of the actual specifics on seat size/headplate etc etc for a wow was odd.
 
Would a good analogy to this situation be like selling a 'new, never used' iPhone 1 as 'would cost new today ~ £500' i.e. that is the cost of the current iPhone model (iPhone 6).....or have I had too much mulled wine :D
 
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