WWYD 3YO kicked handler

[FfionWinnie]

Good luck. One thing to consider is if you wait until spring when he is getting more turnout and is less fresh, he is less likely to misbehave and then you are less likely to have problems and can work in a positive way. I do agree he needs a short sharp shock if he tries this again and you are right to be wearing hat and gloves and always to be ready for him.

 

[gunnergundog]

Good luck. One thing to consider is if you wait until spring when he is getting more turnout and is less fresh, he is less likely to misbehave and then you are less likely to have problems and can work in a positive way. I do agree he needs a short sharp shock if he tries this again and you are right to be wearing hat and gloves and always to be ready for him.

Am going to be getting a bad reputation by typing this, but here goes.....you can make excuses for a horses behavior all its life. Yes, you can wait until the spring when it gets more turnout, but hey, then we have the spring grass! Next excuse? Do you get my drift?

 

[FfionWinnie]

Am going to be getting a bad reputation by typing this, but here goes.....you can make excuses for a horses behavior all its life. Yes, you can wait until the spring when it gets more turnout, but hey, then we have the spring grass! Next excuse? Do you get my drift?

You will not find me making excuses for bad behaviour. My horses are all impeccably behaved and that's a fact that's often remarked on by complete strangers and friends alike. However the op has a dodgy knee and a big strong horse that's not getting much turn out. There's no excuse in my comment, it was a suggestion.

 

[conniegirl]

Stop faffing with leading him out. Turn him out and let him be a baby or bring him into proper work as he is now 4.
My lad wasn't handled at all untill I bought him at 4 yrs old. He was herded into the lorry in Ireland and herded into a stable at mine. 10 weeks later he was at his first ridden show! I've been very strict with him and lifting a leg at me has resulted in me coming down on him like a ton of bricks, instant and harsh. He only ever lifted a leg twice in those first initial weeks and now His manners are impeccable and it wouldn't even cross his mind to lift a leg at me

 

[Goldenstar]

He needs to be no ones friend for a while .
Minimal handling as much turnout as possible .
I agree with all those who say that they deal firmly with any lack of respect of handlers and riders space from birth it's should never be an issue .
I have lead all my three year olds however it's difficult this time of year when you can get them as much movement as perhaps is ideal.
I would not be letting this horse have time to be a baby I am not sure really what people mean by this a bad mannered horse is bad mannered and dangerous whatever it's age .
He needs to learn to respect humans when I had young ones I had a lovely and very dominant mare I think she was the reason I had respectful youngsters .
Is he dominant in the field by any chance .
It's best of course if they get instant correction when they behave as badly as this but as the groom would have been dealing with her horse the youngster and the fact your friend was hurt and might have been in public and it's a very confident groom indeed who dispenses harsh correction to a employers youngster I would totally understand why the groom did not .
WWID I would be looking for total obedience from him towards everybody at all times , in every interaction all the time he must learn to stay out of peoples space at all times
If at this time of year youngsters are difficult because you can't work consistently I often just stop work till the weather is better .
You might look at turning him away away from home till spring and group of kick ass barren mares would be ideal .
You could put him into more work if you feel he's physically up to it or
You could spend him to a pro with an indoor who could do more with him , this would be my least favourite choice .
It's very hard where a horses behaviour and it's physical development have conflicting demands .
It's very very unfortunate I am so glad your friend is not too badly damaged you have all been lucky .
Be honest with your self , is he everyone's little prince the one all the future hopes are pinned on if you think there's even a tiny bit of truth in that deal with it pronto.

 

[Tobiano]

Thank you GS! That is also immensely helpful. I honestly don't think he is a 'little prince' - he is a young horse and I think that he probably has missed the alpha mare giving him what for. I will see what I can do to rectify that.

 

[JFTDWS]

This won't be popular, but give him enough rope to hang himself, figuratively speaking, and when he kicks HAMMER HIM AND HAMMER HIM HARD, such that it is a lesson he won't forget. The response to kicking needs to be swift/timely and hard. It is not acceptable to kick - whether it be hounds, horses or humans. Just my old fashioned view, but no doubt someone will come along and tell you how to cure it with a sugar lump and carrot stick.

PS. Do agree though with maximising turnout and minimising intake of hard food!

I like you. That's all. Second time today you've said what I'm thinking

 

[baymareb]

This won't be popular, but give him enough rope to hang himself, figuratively speaking, and when he kicks HAMMER HIM AND HAMMER HIM HARD, such that it is a lesson he won't forget. The response to kicking needs to be swift/timely and hard. It is not acceptable to kick - whether it be hounds, horses or humans. Just my old fashioned view, but no doubt someone will come along and tell you how to cure it with a sugar lump and carrot stick.

PS. Do agree though with maximising turnout and minimising intake of hard food!

Popular with me. My OTTB used to rear and strike, and she'd charge me when I tried to longe her. Beast. I tried patience and time and wound up with my face broken in 6 places.

Horses are big animals and they can kill you. They learn proper behavior in a herd by having other horses pound them when they don't behave.

What I actually did, on the advice of a trainer friend, was tie a plastic grocery bag to the stiff end of my dressage whip and turn her loose in the round pen. And EVERY single time, she didn't do exactly what I asked, I shook that bag at her like the dickens. I was completely skeptical but you would have thought the thing was a horse-eating monster. I got her attention and respect. I also hand walked her with one on a riding crop. I used it sparingly - only for very bad behavior - because they catch on. But it worked.

Three years on, she will not lift a front hoof off the ground no matter what (she'll stand on tip-toes but a growl will get them flat). She's very affectionate and happy and is a dream to work with.

I won't tolerate dangerous behavior.

 

[noodle_]

this is literally my horse 2 years ago

she booted me and someone else.... so the last time she did it - she got PASTED. and i mean pasted.

she never did it again unless there was food around [was severely food aggresive] - now i can do anything with her with high value feed - including take the bucket and move it/rug up etc

I dont condone hitting but kicking isnt something to be messed about with


fwiw - the horse is now backed and turned away [full 12 months...] till spring...and being re-backed - different horse - shes LOVELY.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

This won't be popular, but give him enough rope to hang himself, figuratively speaking, and when he kicks HAMMER HIM AND HAMMER HIM HARD, such that it is a lesson he won't forget. The response to kicking needs to be swift/timely and hard. It is not acceptable to kick - whether it be hounds, horses or humans. Just my old fashioned view, but no doubt someone will come along and tell you how to cure it with a sugar lump and carrot stick.

PS. Do agree though with maximising turnout and minimising intake of hard food!

This.
No excuses for kicking...I have a 3yo stallion plodding up the field in the dark at 6.30am every morning come hell high water or gale force winds so there is no excuse for this.

Mine isn't in work (only 3 this year) and is stabled 3pm-6.30am so shoot me.....he is handled in a be nice halter and if he ever entertained the idea of kicking he would think his world was ending for the following 10 secs.

Turn away and ignore the problem or nip it in the bud, I know which will lead to a nicer equine citizen....

 

[nikkimariet]

If it were mine they'd get smeared into next year. Kicking is NEVER acceptable.

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

This thread is restoring my faith in the sanity of the posters on this forum. I completely echo the advice of consistent boundaries and discipline with physical punishment when horses are potentially dangerous. Horses understand the lessons because it's in their language, and a safe, sensible horse will find a good home far more easily than an undisciplined lunatic, so you are also improving your horse's future chances if you have to pass them on.

 

[popsdosh]

Just want to reassure the OP that the issue can be sorted but horses the same as my gundogs need to know the boundaries and will respect you for it. However some people find this difficult because it is not in their nature or are not confident enough to deal with it . %00kg of disrespectful horse is a danger to you as the owner and anybody else who has to deal with him down the line. It is only something you can sort out so I would advise you to get some help if you feel unable at this stage . Rather than send him away though I would suggest getting somebody to come to you so you are involved. The reasoning being if you sent him away ,he still may not respect you when he came back and I strongly feel you need to be involved, The other piece of advice would be never start an argument unless you know you will win if you get my drift.. When they play up the sanction has to be immediate and substantial enough to get the message home. I am sure several on here will say the same with experience you get to sesnse when the issue is going to arise so you are straight on the case!

 

[Tobiano]

Thanks Popsdosh. I get the respect thing. I will organise things so as to minimise the opportunity for confrontation but make sure I am equipped to deal with it if there is any.

 

[Spring Feather]

I can't say where my friend was when kicked but she said he rushed past her, hence why she was in the kick zone at the relevant time.

I'm sure none of you were expecting this to happen but it just shows how quickly things can happen, especially if it's a non-horse or novice handler. I bet you won't after this, but I wouldn't let your friend handle the horse again. A competent handler would never have let the horse away from them like that so they wouldn't have been in the danger zone. Is there someone at the yard who would be firm but fair with the horse and could maybe put in some handling time with him?

We had a young horse arrive from the States back in the summer; she's 2 but 17hh and boy when I unloaded her from the artic she was a bouncy girl having travelled a thousand miles. I left her for a couple of days and then started handling her. It was clear her previous handler was a pushover as this young filly believed she could just barge wherever she wanted. Hmm that didn't work for me so a little bit of tough love for her and now 6/7 months on she's a total doll I did not lay a hand on her but I was incredibly clear about what I wanted and what was unacceptable. I don't believe you have to smack horses to get the point across and this mare did not need it, she zoned in to me and got what I wanted without it, however I also don't think there's anything wrong with giving a swift smack to nip something in the bud.

 

[Tobiano]

Thank you Spring Feather Its great to see that you can get results without acting in a way I wouldn't be comfortable with. I will use your comments as inspiration!

 

[AmyMay]

...... so a little bit of tough love for her and now 6/7 months on she's a total doll I did not lay a hand on her but I was incredibly clear about what I wanted and what was unacceptable. I don't believe you have to smack horses to get the point across and this mare did not need it, she zoned in to me and got what I wanted without it, however I also don't think there's anything wrong with giving a swift smack to nip something in the bud.

Thank God - a sensible and positive response.

 

[Suechoccy]

Turning my 3 y-o away into a herd of 14 geldings (aged 3-26) and 10 cattle in a 30 acre field for 3 months Jan-March one year was one of the best things I have done with him so far. In April-May, he and 2 of the other youngsters in the herd were then backed by 2 of us working together, helping each other, he remained in the herd until July and then came home.
He learnt good manners from the other horses and also had good teenage time playing with the other colts.

 

[highlandponygirl]

I used to work at a yard years ago and we had a foal bred on the yard for the first time in a few years. He turned into a lovely yearling but liked to have a nip at you, some of the teenagers that used to be on the yard thought it was cute and spoilt him a little "he's just a baby, he'll grow out of it" :/ he had a few goes at me and shooo'd him but he'd keep having a go and he actually got me a good one (nice set of teeth marks on my backside) gave him a good smack followed by me raising the ends of my coat above my head and flapping about and cursing like an idiot, the look on his face was priceless. Was called a crazy horse abuser buy some of the teens but the yearling never showed his teeth to me again.

Sometimes you do have to be tough on them if they are doing something that can escalate without proper boundaries.

 

[Andalucian]

I'd imagine this young horse has not lived and been brought up in a proper herd situation. If he had he would most likely have learned very early on that this high-jinx behaviour is not acceptable within personal space of human or horse. I rarely have the odd newborn foal who will try to do this with me when they are a week or so old and they are always promptly reprimanded with a hard thump with the rubber feed skip across the bottom. I only have to do it once normally and they learn.

I don't really understand where you friend was at the time of the kick?

Yep, my foal double barrelled me at 6 days old, my response made her quickly decide NEVER to do it again, that's the age for the lesson to be learnt, before they're bigger than you!

 

[fawaz]

More than a whack. Sorry if it sounds harsh to some, but I don't mess around with kicking or biting. The one time my three year old cowkicked at me and caught me in the elbow, he was very very sorry indeed, and believe me, he came to the conclusion that kicking at humans was the worst idea in the world and he never did it again.

And yes, I had put myself in a position where the horse could do that so it was my fault, but I don't regret going ballistic at him and making it plain that one should never, ever raise their heels at a human. I want a horse who understands that no matter what, you should not kick, and who is easy and straightforward to handle. If you let them off with, "He's only three and he's not been turned out and I was standing in the wrong place," then it is too much grey for their equine minds, and I don't want to deal with a horse who thinks it is ok to throw its hindlegs around whenever because they feel spunky, or the human did something they didn't like.

If your horse kicked out at the herd leader I'm positive they wouldn't just let it slide! The offender would very aggressively and swiftly be kicked/chased/attacked with bared teeth to let it know this behaviour isn't on! There is no pondering accidental/excitable bucking or kicking the leader would just let loose.

I'm also of the school that a swift kick in the guts/crack with a Schooling whip up the side and being aggressively sent backwards is not over the top.

Agreed that your horse needs to be roughing it over winter and not be getting over handled.

 

[Dry Rot]

I still smile when I think of the discussion I had with the WHW inspector who occasionally pops in for a chat. He is ex-mounted police and explained to me that if any officer was kicked or bitten by a horse they were immediately put on a charge "for not reading the horse's body language".

This thread is quite revealing about human psychology, too, because when I've suggested an owner should immediately react with sudden violence to a dog biting or threatening to bite an owner, I have been told I'm wrong! A whack with a rolled up newspaper has put more than one cocky young dog back where it belongs and put an immediate stop on the problem escalating.

But I stil maintain that it is not a good idea to make any animal, let alone one the size of a horse, nervous of sudden movements. Either stick it in with it's own kind to sort the problem or think up some other subtle method of correction that does not involve waving a stick around. Some of the posts on here could be taken to be recommending punishment after the event and even a few seconds delay could be too late.

 

[teabiscuit]

If I were in a fit state immediately after the kick, and felt the situation wouldn't escalate (split second decision based on gut instinct, , after all the horse is always going to win a blow for blow encounter) the horse would feel the full force of my rage, but I certainly try hard to consider what can go wrong and minimize risk, for my own benefit, before embarking on and during a session .

 

[Ladyinred]

This thread has made me sadder than any other I have read for a long long time.

Have some of you never heard the expression 'violence breeds violence'? It is very true in so many cases.

I don't actually trust myself to say much more, I think I will go and hug my EX- kicker of a mare who has never been hit or 'smacked' in her life and she is now 10 and completely trustworthy.

 

[teabiscuit]

It would depend very much on the horse lady in red. I have had some I'd never dream of hitting but by heck I've had some rum ******* too who wouldn't think twice of double barrelling you easily stopped with 30 seconds of raging human.

 

[avthechav]

This thread has made me sadder than any other I have read for a long long time.

Have some of you never heard the expression 'violence breeds violence'? It is very true in so many cases.

I don't actually trust myself to say much more, I think I will go and hug my EX- kicker of a mare who has never been hit or 'smacked' in her life and she is now 10 and completely trustworthy.

I don't think anyone is saying go out cold and leather the horse now, it's about speaking horse language and like many posters have said, horses are big strong animals who don't wait for discussion, they react. In an ideal world all behaviour would have been dealt with before it gets to the kicking out phase but in reality the damage that can be done in an instant by these big strong animals is too big, and sometimes speaking back to them in horse language is necessary. I am as soft as butter and need to be firmer but my 5 year old, who normally is a sensible type will sometimes have a moment in the stable. I think that he has prob been leathered in the stable in an inappropriate response and as a result something (raising arm to quickly when he's not looking etc) will cause him to rush to the back and turn him bum on you.....I think this is fear. I have been using the clicker to help with this to great success and he is getting much more trustful and this response is becoming much less frequent. But one day he turned his bum and he did cow kick out....he just can't do this- he is too big and strong. So he did get a swift kick in the belly and shouted at as well as a few sharp yanks on the lead rope. Since then his improvement in behaviour has continued in the same way but he does not raise a leg...it simply cannot be a response that he thinks is acceptable!

(IMO I think that if I hadn't responded in this way, this would have added to his rush to the back behaviour- I would have reinforced it by giving him what he wanted ie moving away from him)

 

[AmyMay]

Kick it in the belly. Wow.

 

[avthechav]

Kick it in the belly. Wow.

Yes amymay, I hardly think that this would have caused him any undue stress

 

[Nudibranch]

A cow kick is a lash forwards. If he had turned his back to kick out with both heels I would not be convinced the time taken to position a kick in the belly would be helpful. The belly is also a vulnerable area.
Just saying.

 

[Goldenstar]

This thread has made me sadder than any other I have read for a long long time.

Have some of you never heard the expression 'violence breeds violence'? It is very true in so many cases.

I don't actually trust myself to say much more, I think I will go and hug my EX- kicker of a mare who has never been hit or 'smacked' in her life and she is now 10 and completely trustworthy.

Have you ever watched mares with foals at foot ?
That's how I really learned to handle horses .
I am somewhat concerned by some of the comments here but I am no fluffy bunny with my own horses they know they don't step out do line or there will be consequences .
I don't know OP and it's difficult to judge without seeing the horse but I do think most horses who behave as OP describes have not been taught to respect humans space and that they can't just express them selves exactly how they like when humans are around .
Mares don't hang back disciplining foals ,they go for them . My field boss has any horse who comes into his space without permission and you can watch him 'invite 'another horse to come and groom and socialise a bit , he remains however always slightly detached .
That's being the leader , horses need to learn that humans are always the leader.
Their lives are much happier and simpler if they learn this very young .