WWYD 3YO kicked handler

[avthechav]

A cow kick is a lash forwards. If he had turned his back to kick out with both heels I would not be convinced the time taken to position a kick in the belly would be helpful. The belly is also a vulnerable area.
Just saying.

Fair enough, wrong term used, rather than cow kick- maybe lashed out would be better. And response was instant with a nice slappy noise rather than some sort of power ninja kick (I am not a ninja and as said earlier soft as butter). I am happy that no harm was done and the response that I got has prevented further escalation of this behaviour, without affecting the build up of positive behaviour reinforced by the clicker.

 

[AengusOg]

Hmmm............the friend has cracked ribs....you MAY call that a buck, but I would call that a KICK! To be honest, WHATEVER you call it the horse would get disciplined HARD and yes, it DOES work.

To advocate hammering a young horse for being a young horse is unfair, unless you are assuming that all the people involved are competent and are without blame in this incident.

It really pisses me off when people say a young horse is dangerous, yet give no information on whether the persons involved know what they are doing. This young horse is just being spirited and doing what comes naturally. If he has not been properly prepared for what is expected of him, and if his handlers are incompetent to some degree, then accidents will happen. A hiding won't sort anything.

It just needs a person to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Apercrumbie]

This thread has made me sadder than any other I have read for a long long time.

Have some of you never heard the expression 'violence breeds violence'? It is very true in so many cases.

I don't actually trust myself to say much more, I think I will go and hug my EX- kicker of a mare who has never been hit or 'smacked' in her life and she is now 10 and completely trustworthy.

I understand being so wary of this kind of violence (although I don't think most people are advocating being truly violent towards their horses.....certainly nothing that would cause any damage) but the one thing I have taken from their responses is that they didn't need to do it again. Personally, I would far rather have one twenty second period of being very scary towards a horse as a result of them kicking me (think lots of noise, not just a wallop) that meant they didn't kick me again than having a more softly softly approach that could result in extremely bad and dangerous manners.

I've just remembered that my mini kicked me once when he was a bit younger. He was being naughty when being turned out, charged ahead and fly bucked and caught me on the knee. He was so so shocked that he had got me, as was I! I gave him two or three wallops with the end of the leadrope while growling (definitely wouldn't have hurt him, but obviously he doesn't like it at all) and then led him back to his field and let him go. Because I was so shocked by being hit I felt very angry so I had to be quite careful in my response but I don't think I overdid it at all. He definitely realised he was wrong but I didn't hurt him. The situation could almost certainly have been avoided by better handling, although I was handling him quite strongly as he was being such an idiot. I think he meant to just miss me as he was trying to be quite dominating in his behaviour. I can see the argument for not reprimanding him in this situation but a) he already was not listening to me and being very rude and b) I didn't want him to even consider that kicking me was an option. He hasn't raised a hoof to me since and has been a little lamb to lead out. I admit that I should have handled him better, but equally we all have moments where we slightly lose the leadrope and I don't want the horse's response to that situation to be to kick out.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Some of the posts on here could be taken to be recommending punishment after the event and even a few seconds delay could be too late.

This point of DR's is exactly one of my concerns. I have seen a few different people really belt their horses for undesirable behaviour and the one thing that they all had in common was having far too big a time gap between the horse's undesirable behaviour and the punishment. There is no way that the horse could connect their actions with the punishment.

 

[JFTDWS]

This point of DR's is exactly one of my concerns. I have seen a few different people really belt their horses for undesirable behaviour and the one thing that they all had in common was having far too big a time gap between the horse's undesirable behaviour and the punishment. There is no way that the horse could connect their actions with the punishment.

And it's a very valid point. If you're going to "act the vengeful horse" in response to something like this, it has to be instant, without any hesitation or second thought...

 

[Goldenstar]

To advocate hammering a young horse for being a young horse is unfair, unless you are assuming that all the people involved are competent and are without blame in this incident.

It really pisses me off when people say a young horse is dangerous, yet give no information on whether the persons involved know what they are doing. This young horse is just being spirited and doing what comes naturally. If he has not been properly prepared for what is expected of him, and if his handlers are incompetent to some degree, then accidents will happen. A hiding won't sort anything.

It just needs a person to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It is not acceptable any horse behaviour .
Saying accidents happen makes my blood run cold horses have to be trained and just doing what comes naturally is not acceptable .

 

[Goldenstar]

And it's a very valid point. If you're going to "act the vengeful horse" in response to something like this, it has to be instant, without any hesitation or second thought...

This is spot on .
The horse was being handled by a groom who had a hurt human and the horse to deal with , a spot of acting the vengeful horse was probably not top of her priority list.

 

[AmyMay]

Yes amymay, I hardly think that this would have caused him any undue stress

I disagree. It's almost the worst thing you can do to a horse (punishment via the belly), or any animal.

 

[JFTDWS]

This is spot on .
The horse was being handled by a groom who had a hurt human and the horse to deal with , a spot of acting the vengeful horse was probably not top of her priority list.

To be fair, I reckon the response would have to be so rapid that the groom wouldn't even be aware of an injured human - i.e. the moment it went forwards, kicking... But since we don't know the details of the event, it would be wrong to assume the groom was in a position to do that.

 

[Britestar]

A couple of years go, my rather large youngster thought it might be a good idea to rear whilst the farier had a hind foot up to trim it. He got a swift thump in the ribs by the farrier, and as I hung onto the front end the farrier came to grab his headcollar. In that split second the horse was on the way back down and he got a thumb poked in his eye - freak timing. You know what? Has NEVER been naughty again with the farrier. The timing was immaculate by sheer chance, but he learnt his lesson.

 

[avthechav]

I disagree. It's almost the worst thing you can do to a horse (punishment via the belly), or any animal.

I don't want to overtake this post with this, but there are defiantly worse things that can happen to a horse than an INSTANT (I think this is key) slap to anywhere with the side of a welly from a small female, the noise factor was more I think. Personally I feel that seeing someone belt a horse several minutes after the event repeatedly is much worse (often observed at comps) ...or hearing of a youngster that had lost it's bottle jumping oxers being lashed by a lunge whip by a reputable showjump trainer that were still weaping the next day much more galling. It's certainly not something I would do often, or if I wasn't close enough in that instant to give a response but I think that horses are big and dangerous and by giving them black and white rules reduces the risk. (Having said that I am very aware that I still need to be much more black and white in lots of ways including riding to even further reduce the risk of behaviour escalating to this stage).

 

[Tiddlypom]

And it's a very valid point. If you're going to "act the vengeful horse" in response to something like this, it has to be instant, without any hesitation or second thought...

I disagree. It's almost the worst thing you can do to a horse (punishment via the belly), or any animal.

Timing is critical. If by the position you are in dictates that the only way you can administer an instant retribution is by a knee in the guts, then so be it. Yes I have done it, when the late chesnut git went to double barrel me in the stable when he was a newly arrived yearling colt. He never did it again (kept him another 24 years).

However, there is so much you can do before that sort of situation. All the simple stuff such as leading, moving over, picking up feet MUST be spot on. No faffing around or allowing a horse to dictate things. If you win all the small battles, you are much less likely to have big ones.

 

[TPO]

I mean no offence to the OP and this is more a general comment.

Forums can be a wealth of information and resources. The problem, when you ask a question because you don't know something, is how can you then filter the good from the bad. On forums the favour often seems to fall on the side of those perceived as popular posters. As has been proven on here numerous times you can be anyone you want on the internet; it doesn't actually mean that the poster is walking the walk.

To me the answer to "what should I do?" in this instance is obvious. There more than likely will be variables given that finding the ideal livery situation isn't always easy and sometimes you have to make the best of the situation and resources available. The owner (& presumably main handler is out of action) so relying on others and their varying experience, confidence and competence.

No one can know everything; every time you learn something new you realise how little you actually know. However I do worry that this question, and others like it on different threads, is/are being asked after procuring a youngster/horse.

I appreciate that sometimes you can only learn by doing and it's not easy to find someone good to learn from or be able to expose yourself to certain things easily. Like I said you can't know what you don't know so how can you know if you are learning/absorbing the correct information?

If you genuinely do not know how to deal with this situation and/or are unable to rectify the turnout/herd situation then you need to bring in someone that does.

I've worked with and backed (genuinely) feral youngsters and currently have a 2yr old (3 in April). I've had various "difficult" horses and one that was outright dangerous and would attack humans. Every single one of my horses have had manners installed and not one of them has been "leathered". Yes a well timed slap that, tbh, they'll barely have felt but the crucial aspect was the timing. I don't believe that this can be taught or instructed but comes with experience and feel.

I could go on to list how I have kept and keep mine, how I handle them and so on but that really means nothing in the grand scheme.

For what it's worth I agree with Spring Feathers post re the mare she had in.

 

[avthechav]

Timing is critical. If by the position you are in dictates that the only way you can administer an instant retribution is by a knee in the guts, then so be it. Yes I have done it, when the late chesnut git went to double barrel me in the stable when he was a newly arrived yearling colt. He never did it again (kept him another 24 years).


However, there is so much you can do before that sort of situation. All the simple stuff such as leading, moving over, picking up feet MUST be spot on. No faffing around or allowing a horse to dictate things. If you win all the small battles, you are much less likely to have big ones.

This! In an ideal world you would never get to the point where a slap, kick, knee whatever is need, but life isn't like that. I have a friend who is flipping awesome at discipline.....she bought an unbroken gelding and since word go good behaviour in all ways has been reinforced. She has produced an impeccably behaved youngster who is 100% to deal with and is very trainable as a result. This is what as aspire to!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Popular with me. My OTTB used to rear and strike, and she'd charge me when I tried to longe her. Beast. I tried patience and time and wound up with my face broken in 6 places.

Horses are big animals and they can kill you. They learn proper behavior in a herd by having other horses pound them when they don't behave.

What I actually did, on the advice of a trainer friend, was tie a plastic grocery bag to the stiff end of my dressage whip and turn her loose in the round pen. And EVERY single time, she didn't do exactly what I asked, I shook that bag at her like the dickens. I was completely skeptical but you would have thought the thing was a horse-eating monster. I got her attention and respect. I also hand walked her with one on a riding crop. I used it sparingly - only for very bad behavior - because they catch on. But it worked.

Three years on, she will not lift a front hoof off the ground no matter what (she'll stand on tip-toes but a growl will get them flat). She's very affectionate and happy and is a dream to work with.

I won't tolerate dangerous behavior.

Me too Having been reared on and lashed at which damaged my hand and doubled barreled in stomac giving me a life long preblem with migraines. I am too for the *give them a hard one back*, my young mare (RIP) when she was young lashed out as she was unhandle and kicked the brush out my hand so hard it made a dent in the stable wall, I kicked her back hard and she never raised a leg to me again. She was the sweetest loving mare you could ask for my heart still aches for her.

That is the trouble with society today your frowned on if you smack/kick shout at your horse and your not allowed to smack children (I don't agree with as a final repremand).


Horses do kick each other all the time they soon make up or tolerate the rival. their kicks are harder than ours so being kicked by a human is no different than being kicked by another horses with cast iron shoes.


Some horses through whatever situation treat humans as a punch ball and can corner an owner in the stable and keep booting till dead. These animals you cannot pussyfoot around them, this is probably stems from not being disciplined when young. I am all for discipline (however it's given) provided its instant and short lived

 

[Arizahn]

Personally, if it gets as far as physically reprimanding an animal, then it has already gotten too far. So yes, I would give the short sharp shock if required - but I'd be far harder on myself afterwards. Because I would have failed badly in my role as handler. I am not a horse; it's up to me to be able to understand my horses' body language and to prevent things escalating to the point of needing to mimic the hammering that another horse might dole out.

 

[Holly Hocks]

This won't be popular, but give him enough rope to hang himself, figuratively speaking, and when he kicks HAMMER HIM AND HAMMER HIM HARD, such that it is a lesson he won't forget. The response to kicking needs to be swift/timely and hard. It is not acceptable to kick - whether it be hounds, horses or humans. Just my old fashioned view, but no doubt someone will come along and tell you how to cure it with a sugar lump and carrot stick.

PS. Do agree though with maximising turnout and minimising intake of hard food!

Totally agree with this. If horse is allowed to get away with it, the behaviour will get worse. And the bigger he gets, the stronger he will get and the harder it will get to deal with.

 

[AengusOg]

It is not acceptable any horse behaviour .
Saying accidents happen makes my blood run cold horses have to be trained and just doing what comes naturally is not acceptable .

I agree that horses should not kick humans, and I train horses for part of my living so I appreciate that they have to be trained to behave in certain ways which are not necessarily natural to them.

However, my point is that it's all very well complaining about what damage the horse has done, and making recommendations and giving advice, but we don't know anything about the competency of the people involved and what bearing that may or may not have on the incident.

To state that horses should not kick, and to advocate punishment as a means of avoiding scenarios such as the OP described is simply not enough.

Accidents do happen, and where horses are concerned they are usually a lot to do with human error or lack of sufficient meaningful training.

If people all drove cars with a similar level of expertise, and regard for the rules of the road and other users there wouldn't be any RTAs, now would there?

 

[AmiRobertson]

Personally, if it gets as far as physically reprimanding an animal, then it has already gotten too far. So yes, I would give the short sharp shock if required - but I'd be far harder on myself afterwards. Because I would have failed badly in my role as handler. I am not a horse; it's up to me to be able to understand my horses' body language and to prevent things escalating to the point of needing to mimic the hammering that another horse might dole out.

This and agree with spring feather and amymay. I have a bolshy mare who I have never had to beat ever. The worst she has received is a sharp smack on the nose for biting. She gets out of my space when I raise my elbows and she now leads perfectly. I have had to be hard and firm with her but she respects me because of how I handle her daily not because I had to beat her up once. She also totally respects my 10yr old stepdaughter and she has never had to hit her ever.
None of us have handled or know the OPs horse and while yes he should be reprimanded for that behaviour beating him into next year isn't going to resolve the problem.

 

[popsdosh]

Personally, if it gets as far as physically reprimanding an animal, then it has already gotten too far. So yes, I would give the short sharp shock if required - but I'd be far harder on myself afterwards. Because I would have failed badly in my role as handler. I am not a horse; it's up to me to be able to understand my horses' body language and to prevent things escalating to the point of needing to mimic the hammering that another horse might dole out.

I dont think anybody on here has advocated abusing the horse but the issue is the horse has now done it twice . I have never had to resort to this with my own bred horses as they are given no lee way right from the off and I can honestly say I have never used any physical punishment on any they know by my voice when they are in the wrong. However this is a 31/2 yo that has not had the benefit of this start so does not respect people as they should. I have had to be more positive with horses that have come here due to this sort of issue but it is only ever immediate and as you say I am usually ready as the horse has given my some sign however if the handler is inexperienced they dont have that advantage. It is one of the reasons I rarely sell foals.
From experience I would always rather take on a feral 3yo than a badly over handled one as to be blunt a lot dont get disciplined ' Oh its only his age' and that is when they should learn their barriers.

 

[Arizahn]

From experience I would always rather take on a feral 3yo than a badly over handled one as to be blunt a lot dont get disciplined ' Oh its only his age' and that is when they should learn their barriers.

This was part of my logic when I decided to start from scratch with a yearling Pleased to report that he's now rising three and very nice to work with. He's always had that consistancy and firm but fair approach from me. That said, he's also had plenty of input from a number of older "nanny" horses - they certainly take no prisoners! My older horse is very much boss of the field, but an absolute saint where humans are concerned. And both of them appear to regard this as "normal"; humans are separate and above the herd. It's intriguing to observe, and pleasant to be a part of.

 

[CBFan]

Turn him out in a field of mares. It's the best thing I ever did with my big gelding who did the same thing to me - breaking my arm in the process when he was rising 2. I wish I'd done it sooner - he was 4 by the time I did it as the yard I was at didn't do mixed turnout. when he did eventually go out with mares he didn't know what had hit him - and he actually didn't do anything wrong but they didn't half put him in his place anyway! lol! Oh, and he won't go feral. He will probably thrive!

 

[Tobiano]

Thanks CBFan just need to find some willing mares!

 

[CBFan]

I'm sure there will be plenty of willing mares, it's just the owners that are the question!