wwyd dilemma

I keep my mare at a livery yard, she costs me more than 200 pound in winter but less in summer so its an average of 200 a month.
I do not want to live at home for another 5/10 years until im 30/35!!! I want a life with my OH . If I could afford the horse and move out it would be a different issue completely. I am on minimum wage and need the 200 a month to go towards a flat.
 
Goldenstar said:
I have done the auction thing too although I did not take the horse in the ring .
I touched her nose prayed she had a soft landing and left her in the stable .
I have also had the appalling experiance more than once as a welfare officer of realising with horror the aged horse we where preparing to PTS on extreme suffering grounds was a horse I had known in its competitive prime .
I have seen a mare waiting to go to slaughter wicker and force her way through the group when she saw me at one point her life she had a blonde owner who perhaps dressed and sounded like me .
She haunted me for months .
Bad bad things happen to some old horses .
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:(

When I was quite young I went with a boss at the time to deliver a horse we had been sent to try in the riding school. It was lame and badly trained and totally unsuitable but the owner could no longer afford it so she thought that we would take it.

My boss was a super tough, dealer type who never kept "useless" horses around. Lots of people on here would have found her hard to take. We dropped the horse off at the place the owner told us to, which turned out to be a very low end dealer who mostly collected horses up to be shipped off. There were a couple of horses there already in the pens, fed and sheltered okay, but it was pretty grim. My boss and I cried the whole time, from handing the mare over to putting up the ramp to driving away. When we got back she had a massive rant at her husband about the owner not even having the guts to put the horse down or really see what she had consigned her to.

On that day I knew is was "okay" to feel awful about that sort of situation, that I would never have to get hardened to it even as I accepted the reality that many horses end their days that way and even worse. (A famous jumper showed up at the same auction house a few years later.)

If the people who don't agree with my view think I am "happy" to see an old horse put down, think again. If you think I'm happier to see that than it ending its days in a cold, crappy, muddy pen, with the prospect of an uncomfortable journey and an unpleasant end, then yes, I am.
 
Jesstickle said:
So does that mean it is ok for some people on this thread to be really quite rude to the OP as they have made a different choice? If we accept that from the animal's perspective it is all the same?

That is really what I am driving at I suppose.
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I see what you're driving at and I've taken pains not to support, justify reasons or admonish op. In the end it will be her decision but I hope that decision is reached after consideration of practicalities and her own ethical perspective which may be in the light of current pressures on her. We all can only make the best decision we can at the time and not forget to remember that time in hindsight.
 
cptrayes said:
Interesting how people think the PTS option is the trendy one.

In my view is completely the reverse. The new attitude is to treat horses as pets, which are indeed owed a home for all their healthy life, in my opinion.

Trendy is believing a horse is owed a home for life even when it can no longer be ridden, and is not even fit to be a companion.

I had never come across that attitude until I came onto HHO.
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I would agree. I was raised in a much more agricultural setting than I currently live in and horses were put down all the time for reasons that were not strictly to do with their health. Margins were slim and few people felt that every expensive animal deserved to die from natural causes.

To the dog question, even that it completely contextual. I saw a documentary years ago containing an interview with a dog farmer in, I think, Cambodia. He had dogs in cages and he had a pet dog running around his feet. The interviewer was trying to get him to admit the irony of this but he wasn't having any of it. The dog at his feet had one name - like "cow" - and the ones in the cages had another - "beef". It's all in perception.
 
Not you obviously amandap. You are always extremely fair, I hope you didn't read that as meaning yourself :)

I swerve too far the other way. I can't bear people being upset, I tend to always say what is most soothing (although in this instance I would PTS myself, that isn't a lie). I obviously like people more than I think I do!
 
MrsD123 said:
My cousins are farmers, but when one jersey cow [the only dairy type cow on a beef farm] was sick.......... because it was a favourite QUOTE "we even sent for the vet" so some animals are special even among beef farmers.
It was living on the farm because it was a present to my God Daughter, it was a birthday present when she was 10! and it lived to the age of 18!!!
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I used to work for some people who owned a stock yard and had a pet cow!

They also had a big breeding operation and the owner was very stern about how they never kept any useless animal. Yet his old riding horse had had two colic surgeries and lived a - very overweight - life of leisure, and there were mares in the broodmare band who hadn't had foals for years.

As someone observed the toughest talkers aren't always the cold fish when it comes to their own choices, they are just realistic about the rest of the world.

I will also say these people were very well off. All the animals lived well, their kids had whatever they needed, having old pets cost them very little. I thought it was less sweet. But I though it was a lot less sweet when some other people i worked for made their son give up hockey, which he loves and was very good at, because they made some bad horse choices and would not be sensible, so everyone else had to pay. (Me, the vets, the yard owners . . .all being constantly stiffed and guilt tripped because they couldn't pay for the number of horses they had.)
 
Mithras said:
In that case, I don't think people should buy horses if they do not consider what they will do with them in a few years time, should their circumstances change or the horse become ill or unsound. I think when you buy any animal, you make a commitment, as the greater species, to look after that animal for its natural lifespan.
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OP has already said the mare was older than she thought, perhaps her plan was to buy the horse and then sell it on when she wanted to move out. However, this mare is not saleable so this option is no longer open to her. This mare could live on for another 5-10 years - would you expect her parents to put her and her OH up until she is in her 30's? Would you ask that of your partner as well? I would not.
 
Jesstickle said:
Not you obviously amandap. You are always extremely fair, I hope you didn't read that as meaning yourself :)
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No I didn't, got waffling and forgot to answer the question! lol Being rude happens on forums when people feel strongly and don't see eye to eye. I don't think it's helpful but can understand why it happens and have been rude myself I'm sorry to say. Sadly these delicate subjects do attract more controversy so I hope op takes what she finds useful/helpful from the thread and files the rest!
 
I have a 23 year old who will cost me a fortune probably over the next few years . I could never imagine putting him down until he no longer has a quality of life. Thats my preference for my horse. If i fall on hard times i will have to make the descision to pts sooner than i would like, but he is 23 he has had a good long life and I would never ever evan consider rehoming him.
Its a very personal descision.......some folk might think im daft after all i could keep a younger saner horse for a fraction if the cost.
If the op has looked after her horse and feels that the time has come for whatever reason to put a 24 year old to sleep then that is her business........ personally though I would nt have left myself open to the obvious onslaught by posting the dilema on here.
My horse, i decide when and i don t have to justify it to anyone.
 
Parisexx said:
I keep my mare at a livery yard, she costs me more than 200 pound in winter but less in summer so its an average of 200 a month.
I do not want to live at home for another 5/10 years until im 30/35!!! I want a life with my OH . If I could afford the horse and move out it would be a different issue completely. I am on minimum wage and need the 200 a month to go towards a flat.
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Have you contacted the BHS to talk this over with them yet. They will be supportive you are proposing to do what they and the equine charities suggest. A horse that can no longer be ridden does not have to have years of retirement, a short period of quality retirement followed by euthanisia before pain gets worse is a good way to go.

It is hard to have much choice about your lifestyle if you are paid at the minimum wage rate, accept that not everyone will think the same way, that's what makes life interesting.

Horses are flight animals, they do not show they are in pain until it is really bad, because nature tells them not to appear vulnerable, as someone with painful joints myself, pts is a kind option for your horse.
 
Given it's in the news this week, just an observation that PTS is rather old fashioned rather than trendy. After WW1 all the horses that managed to survive serving their country through the worst conditions imaginable were shot and fed to the prisoners of war! To save the cost of shipping them home and locating their previous owners.

The absolute kindest thing to do would be to continue to pay for her, but equally the 'kindest' thing a lot of us could do is donate all our earning above minimum wage to charity and give up our time with our horses to go our and volunteer for charities - we don't because life has to be a little practical.
The worst thing you could do is pass her on to an unknown future (likely to be unpleasant given her age/ medical condition)
So PTS is somewhere in the middle of the two possible extremes.
Just my personal view.
 
Mithras said:
I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities. Its basic common sense. The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints. We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury. Its evolution.
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We are farmers, we breed pedigree sheep. These sheep probably are handled as much as a young horse, some will be halter broken and will be shown. We put a huge amount of work into the animals, they are all treated with care and respect, should they not make the grade as in being conformationally correct since this will make them un sellable into the breeding market they will be taken to a local abbatoir. No they are not pets they are our living so in my view they are more important. We have had horses for years, my daughter has produced and competed several youngsters, I wouldn't class them as pets either, they had a job to do. Our last mare had an injury 2 weeks after buying her, after 6 months on box rest a second opinion told us she would never become sound, yes she would walk happily and stand in a field, we decided we would advertise her for sale as a broodmare since she had good breeding, if she didn't sell in 6 wks we would PTS. Ok, it may sound heartless but we hear too many horses being sold on as sound when they're not and we were not prepared to put her in this position. We were lucky, a local breeder, 4 miles away saw her advertised and bought her and she will be going to the stallion this year.
I have no problems with people keeping animals as pets, what I have a problem with is people not taking responsibility for their elderly/unsound animals, an animal is for life but we have the responsibility for how long that life is.
 
I have an elderly TBx he's 36 and still in light work, my OH occasionally hacks him out. He will never ever be sold and if if came to not being able to afford him he would be PTS, the same with my current although only 7 and a very talented show jumper, if she was human she would be autistic! She can be awkward to handle sometimes danergous, she has fits if something upsets her to the extend she will chuck herself literally on the floor, very similar to spoilt child in a supermarket not getting her own way and I would not risk her with anyone else, if you were to smack or shout at her, it would completely blow her brain and you would have a nutter on your hands very quickly.
I am a firm believer in owners should take responsiblity on their issues and elderly and PTS at home. Rescue centres are to take in rescues not old horses that no one had the bottle to PTS.
 
Mithras said:
I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities. Its basic common sense. The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints. We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury. Its evolution.
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OK, let's turn this round a bit and talk about milk cows. They are bred for their milk. When they can no longer give enough milk they are slaughtered for the same sort of value as a horse, because the meat is by then old and tough. In fact when BSE was in full swing they were slaughtered and incinerated because they were over thirty months old.

What is the difference between killing milk cows and killing horses that can no longer do their jobs??

Many farmers know all their cows by name, and one I know cries when he has them slaughtered. Tell me the difference between that and a horse?
 
cptrayes said:
Many farmers know all their cows by name, and one I know cries when he has them slaughtered. Tell me the difference between that and a horse?
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Perhaps that no one could financially provide for all the retired dairy cows, but because some are able to retire their horses it changes peoples perceptions?
 
undergroundoli said:
Perhaps that no one could financially provide for all the retired dairy cows, but because some are able to retire their horses it changes peoples perceptions?
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Good point.

So it's money, in that case.

Would all you people who drink milk and don't believe in putting horses without a job to sleep be prepared to pay a lot more to give the cows a retirement? And if not, why not?
 
We put our 18 year old out on loan 5 years ago, but he's still ridden and the loaner has now moved him onto the same yard as me so still see him everyday again!
 
It was that mare's lucky day when the previous owner lied about her age and sold her to OP.
she has had several lovely years of good care, the last two in retirement. She could have gone to someone else who would have sold/given her away when they could no longer manage to keep her, in effect passing on the responsibility with no guarantee she would be well cared for, but at least they would feel ok
or even better, set her free out on the moor, where the cold wet winters would do her arthritis the world of good and the midge infested summers would be heaven for a sweet itch horse.

At the end of the day the horse has no idea it is to be pts, it will know nothing and suffer nothing, unlike some of the poor creatures kept going to help the selfish people who own them feel better about themselves.

OP, it will be a sad day for you, but ignore the nonsense being spouted here and put her to sleep and get on with your life.

I remember having a dog with cancer pts. The vet said, as the dog slipped away. It's days like this I'm so glad I'm a vet not a doctor and I can do this.

We are all dying. It's the quality of life up until that point that counts.
 
Mithras said:
I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities. Its basic common sense. .
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You don't seem to know a lot about farming Mithras. I spend time every spring bottle feeding orphan lambs with my farming friends. You don't get closer to an animal than having it suckle from your hand. Stumpy, whose mother bit off his foot mistaking it for the umbilical cord, was hand reared for six months until he was strong enough to make it on his own. He's far from rare in being an animal destined for meat that farmers get really close to. The last farmer I saw in tears was regretting the fact that his bull Fine'n'Dandy had sired too many offspring to stay on his farm, but had also become too boisterous for him to feel safe to sell him on except for slaughter.
 
cptrayes said:
Would all you people who drink milk and don't believe in putting horses without a job to sleep be prepared to pay a lot more to give the cows a retirement? And if not, why not?
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Well, I do believe in putting horses to sleep because they are too much for their person and not suitable for sale and I also believe in paying more for meat to finance better welfare for the animals. I don't want to pay for cows to spend a decade in a field though; My income is fairly limited and I'd rather spend it on other things, like riding.

Perhaps another difference is that finding the space for all the ex-dairy cows and their replacements is more obviously problematic than finding the resources to care for the UK's impressive collection of useless horses.
 
budley95 said:
We put our 18 year old out on loan 5 years ago, but he's still ridden and the loaner has now moved him onto the same yard as me so still see him everyday again!
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And I sold a ten year old with spavin to go down to flat ground on the instructions of my vet, and he was starved and I had to plot and spend a lot of money to engineer to buy him back. He never recovered full health, was left with a chronic cough and desperate weaving and I often wished I'd had him put down instead.

If rather ten like the OPs were shot than have one treated like mine was.
 
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cptrayes said:
Good point.

So it's money, in that case.

Would all you people who drink milk and don't believe in putting horses without a job to sleep be prepared to pay a lot more to give the cows a retirement? And if not, why not?
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Best steak a chef (interviewed on radio 4) ever had was a 16 yr old milker in a remote American eating house.
I drink milk but wouldn't pay for a cow's retirement for the same reason I wouldn't pay for the retirement of someone else's horse. My responsibility is to my animals and anything else I can afford to spare after that goes to the WHW and RSPCA. On a practical level, I have always helped any horses that needed a bit of extra help or a voice on their behalf.

Next you'll be wanting us to put neoprene wet suits on salmon. I like salmon. On a plate.

If you buy a horse, you are responsible for its welfare, not everyone else. Don't dump it on rescues and don't have it PTS because it isn't wanted any more. Save euthanasia for the time when the animal is no longer able to enjoy life.
 
MerrySherryRider said:
I drink milk but wouldn't pay for a cow's retirement for the same reason I wouldn't pay for the retirement of someone else's horse. My responsibility is to my animals and anything else I can afford to spare after that goes to the WHW and RSPCA.
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But as a milk drinker (sorry if you are not), you ARE responsible for dairy cows, YOU create the market that brings these animals into being.
 
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