wwyd dilemma

[doriangrey]

It isn't just about costs though is it?

The op has said that she has fallen out of love with horses, why should she tie down the next goodness knows how many years working hard and spending all money on something she doesn't even enjoy any more? If the horse was young and healthy it would be a different scenario, but there is nothing wrong with pts an ederly arthritic horse because you want/need your life to move on.

Pts is alleviating any suffering or prospect of suffering.

No, I totally agree with you. What I am saying is would she get the same response if she said that she'd fallen out of love with her dog/cat. With horses is it purely a financial aspect that makes it easier to say pts? Maybe it's a question for another thread and I do hope that it can be resolved for all concerned.

 

[zigzag]

I would PTS. You can't sell her or loan her she has arthritis, so is going to be in pain, and she isn't going to get better. I had an old Welsh D who was arthritic, He was buted up, but was struggling, I kept saying I must ring the vet, but I didn't, went down the field to find him down, he had been struggling all night to get up from the marks, I felt so guilty, never again, will PTS a horse sooner rather than later.

Good luck and don't feel guilty if you decide to PTS

 

[crazyhorse37]

No i cannot afford to buy a one bed room flat let alone a house with land! How ridiculous, me and my partner work full time Jobs but the 200 pound that I spend on our elderly unridden horse needs to go towards a flat (renting!) The place in Devon for retirement livery is still 200 a month

I think there is one much cheaper than that. I'll find out for you and let you know if you want, but getting the impression that it's not what you want

 

[touchstone]

No, I totally agree with you. What I am saying is would she get the same response if she said that she'd fallen out of love with her dog/cat. With horses is it purely a financial aspect that makes it easier to say pts? Maybe it's a question for another thread and I do hope that it can be resolved for all concerned.

Sorry doriangrey, I was replying to a previous poster who'd suggested mortgages etc, I should have quoted in my post.
A dog or a cat is easier to care for, and not such a drain on finances; they also tend to be in the house as part of the family, and although my horses are always part of the family, there are those who view them differently, they are a much larger commitment and don't always fit in with life changes like cats/dogs can. I don't believe it is 'just' finances that make pts a more viable option for horses, there are more horses than good homes at the moment and having witnessed some poor creatures at sales in my time I think pts can be a kindness for many.

 

[khalswitz]

I feel like a horrible witch reading this lot, and can imagine I'll get flamed for my view. For me, horses are a *hobby*, one which I take seriously and invest a lot of money and time into, and I give my horses the best care I can, but ultimately I spend that money to get enjoyment out of them.

It does actually offend me a bit when people preach about owing a horse a retirement on here. If I had my own land, and could just turn out in the field with a share of the hay/odd trim/odd vacc etc then of course I would retire a horse and give it as long and happy a life as possible. But paying for livery (and already having to live with my parents in order to afford horses at all) puts a whole new slant on things. If my horse isn't able to let me enjoy my hobby, then why am I paying for it? Yes, it's selfish, but if I was really selfless I wouldn't ride at all, I would just let my horse run free and happy...

People are quick to say sell if a horse is too much for someone, or they want to compete at a higher level than the horse can, or the horse is getting older and is now a hack etc… and yet putting a horse to sleep because they are lame/old and retired is a horrible thing to do? At least they have had a long life, and presumably at least the time with you has been happy.

There are so many broken and useless horses in this country that should have been put to sleep rather than passed around/ended up in charities. I worked at the SSPCA previously, and the number of phone calls every day asking if we would take their old, retired, unrideable horses was ridiculous. The same with cats and dogs. If an animal is old, and you can no longer look after it, whether by circumstance or inclination, PTS is by far not the worst thing to do. At least you have given the horse a good life whilst it has been with you.

If I waited until I knew I could support a horse for the rest of it's life with no uncertainties, I would never have owned a horse yet. And yet I would say my horses have had a good life, whether they have been sold on to be useful or PTS. My last horse broke my heart when he was PTS - he was sore, and still field lame after four months, and whilst I was very close to giving up riding to just keep him going, it wasn't fair on either of us - our relationship was deteriorating as I resented the fact that he couldn't get better, and his behaviour was worse as he was in pain. I still feel guilty over him being PTS, and tbh I still cry even thinking about him, over a year later, but I am happier now I'm riding again. With Geoff, if he went unrideably lame, I would PTS him too after a summer in the field - much as I love him, I'm not spending all the money I do just to look at him in a field, I do want to compete, and without my own land to turn him out on, I would have to give up riding to keep him.

 

[hnmisty]

I think there is one much cheaper than that. I'll find out for you and let you know if you want, but getting the impression that it's not what you want

I don't think bunging your old horse off on someone where it's not going to get the same love aponntion as it would from a private owner and to never be visited is exactly a nice thing to do. The warn fuzzy feeling from doing so is a load of hypocritical tripe in my opinion.

this pony is only going to get worse, and tbh I don't trust many people to make the right decision when it's needed, far too many skinny and knackered horses are kept going simply because their hearts are still beating.

 

[crazyhorse37]

I am going to get in trouble for this .. but what is it about horses that pts is so much more acceptable? Is it the money aspect? Would the same debate be happening if the OP was talking about a dog or a cat (for instance) that they had for 7 or so years?

thank you, I totally agree. I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts. But that's just it, this is my opinion. It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters. It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts. If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed. You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing. Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do. You alone have to live with the decision. Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it. I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option. I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand. 'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'

 

[zigzag]

thank you, I totally agree. I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts. But that's just it, this is my opinion. It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters. It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts. If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed. You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing. Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do. You alone have to live with the decision. Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it. I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option. I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand. 'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'

And she is really going to survive happily on the moors...

 

[crazyhorse37]

I don't think bunging your old horse off on someone where it's not going to get the same love aponntion as it would from a private owner and to never be visited is exactly a nice thing to do. The warn fuzzy feeling from doing so is a load of hypocritical tripe in my opinion.

this pony is only going to get worse, and tbh I don't trust many people to make the right decision when it's needed, far too many skinny and knackered horses are kept going simply because their hearts are still beating.

Personally I wouldn't send my horse off to be looked after by someone else, but for some it is a good option. The place in question is amazing. The woman checks all the horses 3 times a day. They are all kept in small herds and out all year round. They are well cared for and the horses are all happy being horses with horses. She is very pragmatic about when the time to pts has come and will do this as they need it. She doesn't keep them going unnecessarily. I just thought it may be a good option as if she was sure about pts being the right option she wouldn't have asked about it on here.

 

[ester]

Surely the op post is about she can afford to keep her horse but she wants to put the money towards getting a new place with her partner. Plus she's not enjoying being with the horse anymore. To me this is a right & wrong answer ? Yes life throws you tough thing's sickness/divorce/deaths/redundant... Etc... OP I would have my vet out for their opinion and if the horse was happy and able to enjoy life without being in pain everyday I wouldn't pts. End of the day its your horse to with what you wish.

But OP can only afford to keep the horse because she is subsidised by her parents by living with them, not while she is living an independent life.

 

[hnmisty]

And she is really going to survive happily on the moors...

I'm glad it's not just me who read that and thought "wtf?!".

Excellent example of responsible ownership. I won't make the decent decision to allow my horse a pain free end to its life in return for the years of friendship he has given me, I'll just throw them out into the wild. It's OK, there aren't any wolves in the UK so he'll be absokutely fine as he dies a slow and painful death.

 

[ester]

I threaten to leave Frank with the Quantock ponies if he is naughty.....

 

[Bestdogdash]

thank you, I totally agree. I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts. But that's just it, this is my opinion. It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters. It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts. If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed. You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing. Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do. You alone have to live with the decision. Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it. I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option. I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand. 'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'

You 'would turn you elderly horse out on a moor' rather than shoot it? You are not only stupid but also cruel.

 

[touchstone]

I'm glad it's not just me who read that and thought "wtf?!".

Excellent example of responsible ownership. I won't make the decent decision to allow my horse a pain free end to its life in return for the years of friendship he has given me, I'll just throw them out into the wild. It's OK, there aren't any wolves in the UK so he'll be absokutely fine as he dies a slow and painful death.

Exactly, an example of life at all costs I'm afraid, perhaps a read of this might help to enlighten those who think it is a sensible solution. http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Article/Mare-found-with-dead-foal-amongst-100-horses

 

[be positive]

thank you, I totally agree. I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts. '

In what way could that be considered a responsible way to deal with a horse that suffers from sweet itch and arthritis, throwing it out to survive, if it could, until it finally dies a slow lingering death, a very helpful suggestion for the OP to consider so she does not feel guilty.

We are not talking about a pet dog or cat but an old horse with issues that require managing, will be causing some degree of discomfort if not yet pain, having her pts is not the worst thing that can happen.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Oh great, just seen this. another disposable horse thread.
Yes OP. Shoot the mare and go on holiday/rent a flat/move abroad/ or anything else that makes being responsible for your horse inconvenient.

A horse is just for Christmas, not for life.

 

[Goldenstar]

thank you, I totally agree. I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts. But that's just it, this is my opinion. It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters. It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts. If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed. You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing. Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do. You alone have to live with the decision. Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it. I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option. I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand. 'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'

And on the moor the mare might be lucky she might have a heart attack but more likely malnutrion or lameness would cause her go down she would struggle to stand and struggle and struggle slowly her lungs would congest her breathing would become more and more laboured until finally her heart would stop beating under the strain .
Yes you might feel better turning her lose on the moor I doult very much the horse would .
I saw many old turned out retired horses when I was a welfare officer that why I can lead my
Horses round the corner and look into their eyes as they are shot I am sad but guilt no I feel no guilt when I put an old horse to sleep .
I can give them a dignified end not for them the pain and lack of mobility of extreme old age .

That anyone could think that turning a horse lose on a moor might an acceptable thing to do completely freaks me out .

 

[Bestdogdash]

Oh great, just seen this. another disposable horse thread.
Yes OP. Shoot the mare and go on holiday/rent a flat/move abroad/ or anything else that makes being responsible for your horse inconvenient.

A horse is just for Christmas, not for life.

That is a really uncalled for response - the mare is old and arthritic - frankly the responsible thing is to shoot it. A horse is not a pet, it is an animal that should have a purpose. Your response is 'yet another' unrealistic bleeding heart post that shows one of the reasons we have a crisis in uncared for horses in the UK. Get real.

 

[crazyhorse37]

I'm fortunate enough that I will hopefully never be in a position to have to wonder about the costs involved with looking after my horse. Of course that is something I took into consideration before I got a horse, but circumstances change. Maybe I was being a little blasé when I said I would turn her out on the moors. I hope I would never be in such a situation, but I do live near moors and for those of you who don't realise many people graze there horses on the moors. You are right, in my situation I guess I wouldn't send her out there as I medicate her daily. But horses are horses, they are designed to live in the wild. Of course if a horse was that unwell I would support pts. I just think we are in a bit of a throw-away state where we take on a responsibility and then ditch it when it suits. When children become too much of a burden do you pts?! For me my animals are part of my family and if we take them into our lives I believe that we owe them a duty of care. I have said my opinion and as I mentioned in an earlier post it really isn't our opinions that count at the end of the day for this mare, but her owners.

 

[sophspot]

Op you've obviously been struggling with this since your posts in 2011. Do you have any friends that can give you support & advice in what to do for the best for your horse can you chat to your yard manager (if you have one) in confidence.

 

[touchstone]

Oh great, just seen this. another disposable horse thread.
Yes OP. Shoot the mare and go on holiday/rent a flat/move abroad/ or anything else that makes being responsible for your horse inconvenient.

A horse is just for Christmas, not for life.

The horse is old and arthritic, what would you suggest she does instead? Is keeping a horse that has already been retired for two years for health reasons, to be rehomed or kept grudgingly really the best thing for it?

There are plenty of people who don't have the option of continuing to care for their horses, I would imagine being judged for their imo sensible options will be hurtful and offensive.

 

[windand rain]

cat, dog, elephant, horse, donkey, rat all the same if you cant give them a superb quality of life then take responsibility for them at the end. I cant really credit anyone who would turn loose a horse anywhere to die a slow and lingering death from starvation but perhaps CH thinks its a reasonable solution as she wouldnt have to watch. Age and health dont really matter if you cant afford to live your life and for what ever reason cant keep paying the bills use the last of your money to make sure your animals, pet or not are safely dispatched and are not sent to an uncertain future. Cat and dog homes are full to the brim too if people took responsibility for those there would be less of the have a puppy and dump to buy another one. I could see the point some are making if the OP had said she was going to PTS a healthy horse to buy a younger model of the same type but not when the animal is old and sick and she needs to move her life forward. I despair of some people and their bunny hugging life at all costs views as very often those are the ones inflicting the most horrendous cruelty on animals. I am as soft as butter would take on the world of animals in a heart beat if I had the money to PTS when she was ready but I don't I will have my useless un homeable ones PTS if I cant afford to keep them as I can take responsibility for mine not the whole world.
Do what makes you happy op the horse wont know the difference and if you were made to keep her going the only result will be resentment and ultimately neglect even if fed and and her needs met she will miss out on love attention and true care
Oh and as to the jibe about horses being disposable that is absolute nonsense horses have always changed homes good care has seen them live longer, and it is a poor show as no one would have a horse if no one sold one
Rescues are full of ill bred cruelly treated animals there is no room for them to be retirement homes for those that cant look after them anymore

 

[MerrySherryRider]

The horse is old and arthritic, what would you suggest she does instead? Is keeping a horse that has already been retired for two years for health reasons, to be rehomed or kept grudgingly really the best thing for it?

There are plenty of people who don't have the option of continuing to care for their horses, I would imagine being judged for their imo sensible options will be hurtful and offensive.

Old and arthritic ? Hang on, its only 20 and not needing any medication. No excuses.
This selfish attitude to not taking responsibility makes me blooming angry.

 

[hnmisty]

Crazy horse obviously expects all her horses to pop their clogs in their sleep. If she actually has kept any to the end of their days then she should know that's pretty damn unlikely, and people have to make this decision because their animals are I'll and suffering.

We can only hope that she comes across a vet who will see her prosecuted for transporting an ill and suffering horse without veterinary supervision, abandonment and neglect.

I've come across some fairly ignorant people during my life,but this is up there at the top of the list of idiotic things I've read.

Frankly, I am scared that she actually has animals in her care, and I am worried for their welfare given the opinions she has stated in this thread.

 

[LaMooch]

So lets turn an elderly horse who is aging and is going to need pain relief because this on to the moor to suffer, possibly mate with a wild stallion and add to the problem of abandoned and 'useless' horses, die a painful death. Actually why don't we all do that instead of giving the animal who has given so much to us a dignified end.

 

[Jesstickle]

To quote the BHS's recent article...

'Lets lose the view that good welfare always means keeping animals alive. We can't afford to think like this any longer. Finding a horse a new purpose or new home so we can avoid putting them down really is not always the best solution. Humane euthanasia is far from the worst fate that can befall a horse.'

WHW say the same thing

''For some owners, rehoming isn’t a responsible or realistic option for their horse. In these cases, having the horse put down may be the kindest thing to do if you can no longer meet his needs yourself. Many people may feel guilty even considering this option. However it is one of the most responsible decisions an owner can make when they cannot safeguard their animal’s future welfare by any other means and it is certainly not the worst possible outcome for the horse. It is always better to have a horse put down in familiar soundings rather than to rehome unwisely.''

So both these charities, according to some posters at least, are wrong?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Old and arthritic ? Hang on, its only 20 and not needing any medication. No excuses.
This selfish attitude to not taking responsibility makes me blooming angry.

The OP says 20+ which I read as more than only 20, and has arthritis. I had a WHW pony with arthritis, when she began to struggle she was pts, after discussion with and full support from the WHW. The OP is taking responsibity for this mare if she decides to pts, she would not be doing so if she passed her on.
I write this as someone who has 4 equines over the age of 20, I have my own land so am lucky. However if circumstances change they would be pts, not rehomed .

 

[touchstone]

I'm fortunate enough that I will hopefully never be in a position to have to wonder about the costs involved with looking after my horse. Of course that is something I took into consideration before I got a horse, but circumstances change. Maybe I was being a little blasé when I said I would turn her out on the moors. I hope I would never be in such a situation, but I do live near moors and for those of you who don't realise many people graze there horses on the moors. You are right, in my situation I guess I wouldn't send her out there as I medicate her daily. But horses are horses, they are designed to live in the wild. Of course if a horse was that unwell I would support pts. I just think we are in a bit of a throw-away state where we take on a responsibility and then ditch it when it suits. When children become too much of a burden do you pts?! For me my animals are part of my family and if we take them into our lives I believe that we owe them a duty of care. I have said my opinion and as I mentioned in an earlier post it really isn't our opinions that count at the end of the day for this mare, but her owners.

And that 'duty of care' for a reponsible owner involves euthanasia when in the horse's best interests, whether for health, financial or other reasons.

 

[Goldenstar]

Old and arthritic ? Hang on, its only 20 and not needing any medication. No excuses.
This selfish attitude to not taking responsibility makes me blooming angry.

OP is taking responsibly for her horse .
This whole thread is about her taking responibilty she's 25 living at home with her OH at her parents She wishes to move with her life and money is very tight and the horse is old and suffering from two conditions one is progressive and likely to make grazing difficult and the other makes the horse unsuitable for mass turnout retirement livery what is OP to do she can't sell the horse, won't quite rightly pass it on she is being responsible .

 

[Arzada]

I think there is one much cheaper than that. I'll find out for you and let you know if you want, but getting the impression that it's not what you want

You're right, there are cheaper retirement places in Devon. I've been thinking ahead to retiring Arzada and have looked at yards. The recent weeks of rain and days of gales have really focused my mind. I thought retirement livery was a good plan and I've looked at 2 yards but I've had a rethink over the last month of appalling wet and windy weather (and wet muddy slippery fields). There is no way that I would have my horse at a yard that does not offer or have the facilities to bring horses in from day after day of heavy rain and high winds. Anyone visiting retirement livery yards that look lovely in decent weather must really try to imagine them in the worst of winter weather and then ask if they really want to retire their horse there. PTS for an elderly arthritic mare is the kinder option. And for the owner too - I wouldn't be able to rest by day or sleep by night if my beloved horse was retired to a field in the kind of weather we've had recently.