wwyd dilemma

honetpot said:
Does anyone have any statistic of the amount of TB's that are PTS at the end of their working life aged about 3-4 years plus? In the past a horses working life was relatively short, not many lived into their teens, now its not unusual for a horse to live till they are twenty, which is great if they are doing the job they were bought for but not so good if you bought something to ride and you feel obligated to keep it till its 20+.
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I was just pondering how many think all sport horses who don't make the grade should be pts... just in case? Many end up neglected or passed from pillar to post.
 
amandap said:
Perhaps I misread the context? If I did then I see no point in the comment, we'd all rather feel good than bad surely if at all possible?

Be positive, I am not trying to make the op feel bad whatever she decides is up to her!
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I was not implying you were trying to make to OP feel bad, it is a personal choice but some have made their feelings very clear to the point where they are making a hard decision even harder, if it makes some people feel good to keep retired horses that is great, I have kept mine but realise it is not so easy if finances are stretched.
It is not always possible to take on extra work, move to cheap areas and the other suggestions that have been made so that one horse can live a few years longer, I think the OP is probably regretting starting this thread as her head must be far more confused than it was before, whatever she does will make her feel guilty in some way.
 
Parisexx said:
Cptrayes thats my point. Its not like I havnt given the horse a retirement. She has had two years x
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Yes, at least you have given the horse a retirement. And she is in her twenties.

Personally I couldn't do it, and im glad im not in the situation where I have to, but I do find it hard to fathom people who are out competing their horses one month and the next month they are dead, and not due to any sudden onset catastrophic condition either.
 
Mithras said:
Yes, at least you have given the horse a retirement. And she is in her twenties.

Personally I couldn't do it, and im glad im not in the situation where I have to, but I do find it hard to fathom people who are out competing their horses one month and the next month they are dead, and not due to any sudden onset catastrophic condition either.
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I know. I find it strange too. I particularly hate it when a person has had a lot of good years out of a horse and then as soon as it can't do it's job it is shot. Usually with the old 'he would never be happy retired' quote. Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. :rolleyes:
 
The OP obviously does care about her horse, because A) she is struggling to make the decision and, B) she hasn't merely advertised it on Projects, Cheapies and Freebies as a 'companion' or, heaven forbid, a broodmare.

If the horse were saleable, I'm sure she would find it a suitable, appropriate home. As it is, the horse isn't saleable, for various reasons, and therefore she is considering what I believe to be the most caring and responsible course of action. It doesn't make it an easy choice, but I can understand why she would do it, and support her in that. I have done similar. :(

However much you love a horse, it is still a horse and keeping it at the expense of everything else is, IMO, unacceptable. The decision is no one's business but the OP's, and no one should make her feel bad if she makes The Decision.
 
Parisexx said:
Cptrayes thats my point. Its not like I havnt given the horse a retirement. She has had two years x
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Wagtail said:
I know. I find it strange too. I particularly hate it when a person has had a lot of good years out of a horse and then as soon as it can't do it's job it is shot. Usually with the old 'he would never be happy retired' quote. Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. :rolleyes:
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Well yes. Not relevant to the OP, but I was told by a once very well known showjumper, now an in demand coach, that so many horses in their teens come right again with a decent break in the field. Obviously not all, but how stupid it must be to miss even another good 18 months on a decent horse, when it costs so much to buy one you click with, because on paper it seems a good idea to pts asap.
 
OP, it doesn't really matter what anyone says as the only person who has to live with the decision is you.

So all I will say is, make sure you have made peace with it BEFORE you go through with it as believe me if you think it's hard enough to make the decision, carrying it through is a million times harder.

The only obligation you have as a pet owner is to ensure that the animal does not suffer from your decision.

I personally would think less of a person who dumps their horse on 'retirement livery' or re-homes (including selling) to an uncertain future as it really is just passing the buck which is not fair on the horse or the person who (sometimes) unwittingly finds themselves the fall guy.
 
I wonder how this thread would've gone if op had said "I've lost my job and have no means of caring for my elderly arthritic mare, I am considering pts as I don't feel her future would be secure if I passed her on"? This girl's life is effectively on hold (as well as her oh's) because she is having to pay for this mare. She is not getting enjoyment out of her and is probably resenting her because she is unable to progress her life. I understand the position the op is in absolutely.

Ideally, yes, we would all have endless funds and acreage to enable us to retire and care for our retired horses and ponies forever more - unfortunately this just unrealistic. Life changes, life moves on, and sometimes difficult and heartbreaking decisions have to be made in order for that to happen. If the pony was useful, very few people would have an issue with the mare being sold on to another home. This would still effectively be "getting rid".

OP, if you pts this mare, I for one would understand why. It will not be easy and you may well carry guilt for it in years to come. On the other hand, how will you feel in 10 years time if she is still going and you are still living with your parents? Will your oh wait that long? How will your parents feel about that?

IMO there are much worse fates for a horse than the bullet - and your mare unfortunately falls into the category of those who would be likely to meet that worse fate if passed on. She has had nice years with you, a caring home in her twilight years - more than many can hope for.

Good luck with whatever you decide op.
 
amandap said:
I was just pondering how many think all sport horses who don't make the grade should be pts... just in case? Many end up neglected or passed from pillar to post.
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One of the bigger studs in Germany will breed about 400 foals a year. On average 200 of them will be culled (killed) as yearlings, & only about 50 will make it as far as being broken in, & of those 50, 20 might make it in to competition. An Irish stud does something similar, & any mares who throw foals with inherited problems like poor conformation would also be culled because as far as the breeders are concerned they must not be bred from as they are producing inferior stock which could tarnish the reputation of their bloodlines.
I don't like this any more than anyone else on here will, but it happens, & I doubt things will ever change at that level.
 
dunkley said:
The OP obviously does care about her horse, because A) she is struggling to make the decision and, B) she hasn't merely advertised it on Projects, Cheapies and Freebies as a 'companion' or, heaven forbid, a broodmare.

If the horse were saleable, I'm sure she would find it a suitable, appropriate home. As it is, the horse isn't saleable, for various reasons, and therefore she is considering what I believe to be the most caring and responsible course of action. It doesn't make it an easy choice, but I can understand why she would do it, and support her in that. I have done similar. :(

However much you love a horse, it is still a horse and keeping it at the expense of everything else is, IMO, unacceptable. The decision is no one's business but the OP's, and no one should make her feel bad if she makes The Decision.
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Well put. Completely agree with this post
 
LaMooch said:
Well put. Completely agree with this post
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As do I. Very easy to judge behind the safety of a keyboard but how hard it must be when you work out money and know how tied you are.

Good luck OP in whatever you do. I applause you looking at your options..there are more and most posts coming up now on FB showing starved horses. Whatever happens, you have spared your mare that end.
 
MissCandy said:
So all I will say is, make sure you have made peace with it BEFORE you go through with it as believe me if you think it's hard enough to make the decision, carrying it through is a million times harder.
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Agree with this. I don't understand when people saying that making the decision is the hardest bit. For me, going through with it was far harder. But only with my latest mare as she was my horse of a lifetime and I loved her to bits. Others have been sad but I was spared any form of guilt as they were medical emergencies and just a complete release for the horse. When a horse is relatively perky, you can feel like a murderer, even if you know they have no future, as was the case for my mare.
 
Clare85 said:
I wonder how this thread would've gone if op had said "I've lost my job and have no means of caring for my elderly arthritic mare, I am considering pts as I don't feel her future would be secure if I passed her on"? This girl's life is effectively on hold (as well as her oh's) because she is having to pay for this mare. She is not getting enjoyment out of her and is probably resenting her because she is unable to progress her life. I understand the position the op is in absolutely.

Ideally, yes, we would all have endless funds and acreage to enable us to retire and care for our retired horses and ponies forever more - unfortunately this just unrealistic. Life changes, life moves on, and sometimes difficult and heartbreaking decisions have to be made in order for that to happen. If the pony was useful, very few people would have an issue with the mare being sold on to another home. This would still effectively be "getting rid".

OP, if you pts this mare, I for one would understand why. It will not be easy and you may well carry guilt for it in years to come. On the other hand, how will you feel in 10 years time if she is still going and you are still living with your parents? Will your oh wait that long? How will your parents feel about that?

IMO there are much worse fates for a horse than the bullet - and your mare unfortunately falls into the category of those who would be likely to meet that worse fate if passed on. She has had nice years with you, a caring home in her twilight years - more than many can hope for.

Good luck with whatever you decide op.
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Very good post.
 
Zebedee said:
One of the bigger studs in Germany will breed about 400 foals a year. On average 200 of them will be culled (killed) as yearlings, & only about 50 will make it as far as being broken in, & of those 50, 20 might make it in to competition. An Irish stud does something similar, & any mares who throw foals with inherited problems like poor conformation would also be culled because as far as the breeders are concerned they must not be bred from as they are producing inferior stock which could tarnish the reputation of their bloodlines.
I don't like this any more than anyone else on here will, but it happens, & I doubt things will ever change at that level.[/QU

More breeders should use this system, it is no different to what breeders of pedigree farm stock have being doing for years apart from in this country the culled animals (horses) have no real value. There are too many inferior animals being bred from and too much indiscriminate breeding.
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Mithras said:
Well yes. Not relevant to the OP, but I was told by a once very well known showjumper, now an in demand coach, that so many horses in their teens come right again with a decent break in the field. Obviously not all, but how stupid it must be to miss even another good 18 months on a decent horse, when it costs so much to buy one you click with, because on paper it seems a good idea to pts asap.
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Sorry amandap, I wasn't implying you hadn't understood, just backing up the point.

There is a difference between trying everything (including long term rest) to get your horse sound again, and accepting funding an indefinite retirement for a horse that may live 10 more years and prohibit you moving on. I've given horses a year's rest before, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If the horse is still completely unrideable, even if it is not in pain, it goes, I'm afraid. I'm not prepared to fund ten years in a field.
 
I had a imported Belgium draft horse, bought over to make up a lorry load. I was talking to a dealer telling them what a good temperament he had and his comment was,' if they are no good they eat them'.
 
Zebedee said:
One of the bigger studs in Germany will breed about 400 foals a year. On average 200 of them will be culled (killed) as yearlings, & only about 50 will make it as far as being broken in, & of those 50, 20 might make it in to competition. An Irish stud does something similar, & any mares who throw foals with inherited problems like poor conformation would also be culled because as far as the breeders are concerned they must not be bred from as they are producing inferior stock which could tarnish the reputation of their bloodlines.
I don't like this any more than anyone else on here will, but it happens, & I doubt things will ever change at that level.
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I know of a stud in another European country whereby every mare that they don't keep for breeding is culled and that decision is mostly made at weaning. They don't sell mares ever. When I first heard this 10/11 years ago I was pretty shocked but it was explained to me that they really value their mares and it makes sense. Obviously, their culture is to not castrate males but they are graded for breeding and their horses are very highly regarded. I don't know if this is still true for this stud but was told it by the owner.


I have an older pony, he was a long term loan sort of dumped on me. Owner told me to have him shot if he was of no further use. He's healthy atm and I can't bring myself to do it, having had to have an 11 yo PTS last year. But he takes up a stable, doesn't really have a job anymore, is hard to manage in the summer and could go on another ten years easily given his breed! Thats a lot of trims, wormers, hay and bedding!

I would not try and rehome him in the current economy, although I have mulled it over, nor will he have a lot of money spent on him if something was to happen. And if having him means less resources for the other two at any point I will do the deed. This pony suffered at low end sales rings from weaning until he was 4yo and its probably what ruined him from being an easy pony-I'd not risk doing it to him again in his old age. I am very fond of him so won't risk him.
 
Parisexx said:
anyone know any grass livery in thurrock ? Even then I dnt know if that will be fair on her to live out 24/7 cold wet winter with arthritis and sweet itch in the summer. They would have to electric fence
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Everyone seems to be so busy arguing about what they would do that it seems no-one has answered your question. I have no idea where Thurrock is so I can't answer that part for you, however I have lots of retired horses living on my farm and all of them live outside 24/7/365 in temperatures from -40 to +40 and they deal with it all quite happily. Being out is far better for horses such as yours which only has mild arthritis. Sweet itch rugs are available and work well for in the summer and in winter a good turnout rug will keep the oldie warm. I don't know how much grass livery is in your part of the UK but it's most likely cheaper than 200 pounds a month.

And in answer to the moral dilemma you have and asking for others options, I'd look after my old horse in the best way I could. There is plenty of time to live the life I might want later.
 
Interesting that a couple of you mention culling in equine breeding programs in Europe meaning the animals are killed. That's not the usual meaning over here. Most horse breeders here have culls every once in a while, it means they remove that horse from their breeding program and find it something else to do, generally they're backed and sold or sold cheaply as youngsters.
 
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