wwyd dilemma

BBH said:
CPtrays why can't you add anything of value instead of putting down everyone who says something you don't agree with.
You come across as a miserable old bint.
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God that's rich coming from you with a past history of doing the same :rolleyes:

Op I have an elderly horse he's 23 has arthritis but is still rideable, he is on Loan to a lovely friend for her daughter which right now as I'm I able to work or care for him is a blessing. I am also another who is stuck at home living with parents sure to circumstances and low earnings.

I could afford him on full wage and working but I would be unable to save not afford a place of my own, so I am resigned to being here until he is called over rainbow bridge or until my circumstances at work change (going back to uni) so I feel your pain, horses do not know the next day is coming, it is us humans who contemplate such things not animals yes I'm one that won't put down on a whim but I would rather PTS my old boy than try to permanently regime or sell him.

I'm sure you will so what's best for you your OH and your mare.

Take care :)
 
Queenbee said:
Well, I've no idea what turn this thread took after I stopped reading the first page complete with ops initial posts. But all I can say is urgh, I find ops thread and attitude incredibly distasteful.
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You missed among many other things people saying it would be better to turn the horse loose on the moors. Crazy.

What if she PTSd her mare, but started donating the cost of keeping an Egyptian horse to Prince Fluffy Karem every month? Would the stay at home till horse dies of natural causes brigade find that morally acceptable? Her horse would have been sent to rainbow bridge none the wiser after two years of well cared for retirement but OP could get on with her life and an Egyptian horse could have some of its suffering alleviated.

OP, I'm not suggesting you do this. You certainly don't need to justify your actions to a bunch of internet people and besides I think you would be doing your duty by your horse if you sent her to sleep.
 
undergroundoli said:
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What if she PTSd her mare, but started donating the cost of keeping an Egyptian horse to Prince Fluffy Karem every month? Would the stay at home till horse dies of natural causes brigade find that morally acceptable? Her horse would have been sent to rainbow bridge none the wiser after two years of well cared for retirement but OP could get on with her life and an Egyptian horse could have some of its suffering alleviated.
.
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Eh?? Isn't the whole point that the OP doesn't want to pay for the cost of a horse?
What a bizarre post...
 
Patterdale said:
Eh?? Isn't the whole point that the OP doesn't want to pay for the cost of a horse?
What a bizarre post...
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It's a hypothetical Patts. Not an actual suggestion

As in, if one horse dies but another gets a chance is it then ok? Or does the OP's horse specifically have to be the one that stays alive and has the money spent on it just because it is the OP's horse. Isn't any horse a horse at the end of the day? Why single one out over another?
 
Jesstickle said:
As in, if one horse dies but another gets a chance is it then ok? Or does the OP's horse specifically have to be the one that stays alive and has the money spent on it just because it is the OP's horse. Isn't any horse a horse at the end of the day? Why single one out over another?
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More of a general comment, but its all just a game of random chance, isn't it? As in most of life. Horses are dependent on who comes into their lives, who buys them, etc and therefore luck as to whether they will be cherished and loved. I don't ride for a job - I did once, and I chose to make a career in a field which allows me to keep horses as my hobby (leaving home at 18 to do so), hence for me a very hard hearted attitude towards horses doesn't work for me. For instance, if my young horse went lame and could never be ridden again, I would still keep him for his natural lifespan, because I've come to realise that you get more out of horses than just competing them. Likewise, an older horse gives an awful lot of pleasure. This from someone who competes BS all year round, most weekends! But I'm fortunate enough to be in a position to afford more than one horse.

As for the posts from some of the pro-pts-ers - its not my duty to make someone feel good about their choice, or to suppress my views so that they don't feel guilt. Its not something I would do myself, in general I don't think the attitude of treating animals as disposable when they are inconvenient is a good one - whether that be a dog, or a cat, or a horse. And I think these things should be said because there is an increasing tendency out there for people to acquire horses and then blame the horse and get rid of it in all sorts of ways, rather than spending more time thinking about whether they should buy a horse in the first place.

I'm not saying this to the OP - I think someone who has given an older horse a couple of years of a decent retirement is not really in that more callous category. I still couldn't do it myself though and I'm so glad I'm not the OP having to make such a decision.
 
Mithras said:
Its not something I would do myself, in general I don't think the attitude of treating animals as disposable when they are inconvenient is a good one - whether that be a dog, or a cat, or a horse. And I think these things should be said because there is an increasing tendency out there for people to acquire horses and then blame the horse and get rid of it in all sorts of ways, rather than spending more time thinking about whether they should buy a horse in the first place.
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As a general comment I 100% agree with this. Problem is the attitude of the whole of society towards animals needs to change!
 
amandap said:
As a general comment I 100% agree with this. Problem is the attitude of the whole of society towards animals needs to change!
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I agree as well, but would point on that it HAS changed dramatically. Not that long ago this would have been a ridiculous discussion and, for many people, even a conversation about going out of your way to care for an ill child or old person would have raised eyebrows. I suspect this is still true in many parts of the world. Someone who is struggling to feed their family on a daily basis is not going to be having too many conversations about their beloved pet's retirement. The debate over horses being beaten until they fall over dead and left in the gutter is not that long in the past! ("Black Beauty", a book now most consider a sort of horror story/self evident tale, was written as a polemic in the fight for changes in animal welfare laws and very much reflected the reality of the day.)

In some ways, I suspect the change IS the problem! Many people now see it as their "right" to have any pet they want because it gives them pleasure. (I do not think this is the case with the OP, just following along to the above comments.) They give little thought to what will happen if the best case scenario does not play out and they end up with a horse that needs more than they can give it. I think this it true across the spectrum to a varying degree. Insurance has not helped this as people now assume their only health cost will be the insurance premium, which is a) not true and b) only covers a narrow part of what a horse that "isn't working out" might need. So you end up with quite a high proportion of people with "useless" horses because they have fully bought the dream or horse ownership and not been too troubled by the reality. (Although you would think a quick trawl through HHO would set anyone straight!) In that way I agree with Mithras entirely - more thought going in would save a lot of tears down the line. But, in my experience, horse people are optimists (delusional?) by nature. ;)
 
:Walks in..................and then straight out again:

Oh.My.God. I have been on this forum a long ol' time but this thread is honestly one of the worst I've seen.

Yet again the sanctimonious, holier than thou attitudes of the posters in NL (sorry, the Tack Room) have shone through.

Don't worry OP- I too have been smacked with the moral stick in here.

Please do what is best for your mare. Unless you can be confident of a secure and happy future for her if you do pass her on, then please don't.

Good luck! x
 
amandap said:
As a general comment I 100% agree with this. Problem is the attitude of the whole of society towards animals needs to change!
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The thing is, generally I agree with this too. 'Getting rid' shouldn't be the easy, first option, and certainly it's not the horse's fault 9.9/10. However if everything else has been tried, and you have a horse that just isn't right for you, whether young, old, lame or sound, then keeping it and sacrificing all else is like staying in a bad relationship because of the kids - not good for you, or ultimately them. Unfortunately, some horses you can't sell - and I don't think in that scenario PTS should be cried down as evil.

Some people care more about that individual horse than their riding or anything else going on in their life - if they have the resources, then I admire those people for keeping those horses going. For me, a lame horse is a choice between riding, or giving up riding, as my resources don't allow for both, and my love of horse riding in general is greater than any individual horse. So for me, if the horse doesn't fit the job, then it is sell, or if unsellable, PTS.

However I do think time and effort should be put into making the 'relationship' work before giving up. Trying to get a horse sound and rideable, trying out a new career, taking the work level down etc. But ultimately if it's not right, it's not right.
 
I also believe that the easy availability of horses is the crux of the matter.

I cringe when I see totally non horsey novices buying a horse with no real concern about future costs and commitments. When I worked as an instructor there were always those who thought their child was ready for a pony to keep at home after just a few lessons, or riders would view horses to buy that were totally unsuited to their abilities.

It seems to be the same with all material goods now too, when we got married in the distant past everything was second hand, and my son was six months old before we managed to afford a stair carpet. We had to make do and mend and have what we needed, not what we wanted. I waited until my children were seven and nine before buying my current horse, and made sure that it was a true family type that would never have to be sold; seventeen years on and we still have her.

I have seen my daughters acquaintances go out and get an ex racing tb, simply because it was cheap and they fancied riding, but once the work and financial commitment hit them and an unrideable horse, it would be dumped on a dealer.

I have to say that I've seen this with experienced owners too, who overstock simply because there is a cheap horse available or they make a pity buy and then struggle financially to support them all and it puts all their horses at risk.
 
khalswitz said:
The thing is, generally I agree with this too. 'Getting rid' shouldn't be the easy, first option, and certainly it's not the horse's fault 9.9/10. However if everything else has been tried, and you have a horse that just isn't right for you, whether young, old, lame or sound, then keeping it and sacrificing all else is like staying in a bad relationship because of the kids - not good for you, or ultimately them. Unfortunately, some horses you can't sell - and I don't think in that scenario PTS should be cried down as evil.
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Neither do I. Every individual situation is different and the only person able to come to a decision is the owner.
Asking for advice or opinion on a public forum is bound to illicit conflicting views and more general discussion but op must remember none of us are there in her situation.
 
I think the discussion is worth having though, even if it irritates people. Important ideas DO irritate people.

It's quite possible that forums like this do encourage/enable people who buy horses when they probably shouldn't but then maybe they should pay a role in underlining the sometimes harsh reality that GETTING the horse is the easy part. How often are there questions on here from 16 or 17 year olds, flush with money from a first "proper" job, feeling they can now (most likely still living at home) afford their own horse. A year later they're back, wondering what to do with the horse when they enter higher education and/or want to leave home. Maybe a few of them will read a thread like this are clue in to what they REALLY will be signing up for.
 
It would be nice to think that Tarrsteps, but it seems that for every thread like this there are ten "I'm going to uni and think I can afford a horse if I stay at home..." threads, with loads of people saying "do it, do it, do it!" to them.
 
Honey08 said:
It would be nice to think that Tarrsteps, but it seems that for every thread like this there are ten "I'm going to uni and think I can afford a horse if I stay at home..." threads, with loads of people saying "do it, do it, do it!" to them.
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Absolutely! More reason for people who have learned from bitter experience to speak up! You aren't going to save them all but even one or two having a rethink is progress.
 
This definatly a debate worth having .
I just hope the progress has not upset OP to much , her excess of honesty about what she is feeling has really got us going .
When I was first got going with horses ( my parents were not horsey ) I had horsey mentors in the village including a old army officer who was endlessly patient with me and older kids from more horsey families a couple of local hunting farmers they all nudged my mum in the right direction after I got my first pony ( I learnt at a great old fashioned riding school ) .
I not sure that happens for many people today a shame because if you are a grand prix dressage rider or a adult learning to ride with no more desire than to hack a mentors are a great thing.
 
OP, please have a chat with your vet and with the BHS helpline - they will be able to give you impartial advice and support.

For what it's worth, over the last couple of years we've made 'the decision' for four of our oldies. It has been a heartbreaking time. I'm confident that we got the timing exactly right for three of them, but one I guess was 'too early'. We weighed up the retirement home options (money wasn't the issue) but figured that moving him from the field where he'd lived happily for the last few years was too much disruption for an old boy, for the sake of a year or so extra, when he had a few niggling health issues and arthritis was encroaching.

I know people say rather a day too early than a day too late, but I'll tell you now a day too early hurts like hell when they look so ruddy well.

I do feel guilt. One heck of a lot of guilt. But I also feel relief. Relief that he went calm and happy, in the field that he knew, with his friends around him, with the sun on his back and a belly full of good grass, rather than in the middle of winter in distress because he'd colicked or choked (his teeth were on the way out). I feel relief that he hasn't had to cope with the minging weather we've had recently and all the sloppy mud (he would have abscessed, he always did when the weather turned). I feel relief that he didn't have to cope with a new herd at his age, when he could have lost his 'top' position and got bullied. Our vet fully supported our decision and the reasons for it.

Take care of yourself, OP, and your mare. There are no right decisions in your situation, so you need to find the one that is 'least wrong' that you feel you can live with. Kudos to you for not wanting to pass her on. Respect also to your OH for supporting you and not putting pressure on you - it sounds like he is a keeper.
 
EstherYoung said:
I know people say rather a day too early than a day too late, but I'll tell you now a day too early hurts like hell when they look so ruddy well.
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This is SO true. I think on paper I got it exactly right with my mare, but the day she went she was not suffering. She was marching up and down in the roped off bit in front of her stable block. Watching me intently in the house. Full of vigour, gleaming coat, bright eyes... I had fought against laminitis and had got her sound again and she'd been enjoying full turnout in the field. But then she re did a tendon injury which would have meant several months box rest and even after that, I could never have risked her in the field again as the vet said the next time she did it could be catastrophic. That coupled with the fact that she would be on box rest on a very restricted diet due to her laminitis, meant that she soon would not be the happy perky mare I knew and loved. So when I decided to end her life it felt too soon in a way, but my head told me it was right. It still hurts like hell.
 
Perfect_Pirouette said:
:Walks in..................and then straight out again:

Oh.My.God. I have been on this forum a long ol' time but this thread is honestly one of the worst I've seen.

Yet again the sanctimonious, holier than thou attitudes of the posters in NL (sorry, the Tack Room) have shone through.

Don't worry OP- I too have been smacked with the moral stick in here.

Please do what is best for your mare. Unless you can be confident of a secure and happy future for her if you do pass her on, then please don't.

Good luck! x
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This. Honestly, what a load of "holier than thou" drivel there is on this thread. OP, in your shoes I would PTS . . . but it is, ultimately, your decision :).

P
 
I am so glad I took the decision with my boy to be PTS with no one other than my vet. he had been head shaking due to teeth. He had had several treatments and more could have been done at rather large expense, which may or may not have worked with more teeth going the same way.

He was in extreme pain, biting the walls of his stable and anything else he could get his teeth into, including me, and he was the kindest boy. He was dangerous to stay in the stable with at times, as he didn't know 'what to do with himself'. He would trample anyone in the way.

He had also spent 5 months on box rest for an annular ligament strain and was cushings. At 22 yrs of age I called it a day.

That was 9 months ago, I still miss him. I still have all of his tack, rugs etc, can't bear to part with it.

Only one person took me to task over PTS and made it quite clear I should have put him through whatever treatment the vet could offer.

I however have no longer a problem with my neck, shoulder and hip. (I am an older rider).

I have longer to spend with my dogs and OH.

Money was not the issue. I had however spent thousands on previous horses in the past sorting out behaviour and medical issues and swore I wouldn't go down that road again.

I, in an ideal world would love to have my boy back,m but only if his quality of life was good. He was only 22 yrs old and I had been owned by him for 12 years.

For the OP do what is right for you, ignore the rest. Arthritis is bad enough, horses are very stoic and cope with low grade pain, but why should they. sweet itch can be very painful and stressful, imagine being itchy for long periods of time and no way of relieving it.

we have duty of cAre
for our animals and if that means PTS, then so be it.
 
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I think the OP's mistake was to post so generally hoping that the PTS idea they had would be confirmed and their concience eased

Had they worded it differently I think they would have had a lot more people on side

I personally would PTS rather than pass on to someone else. I think its unrealistic to expect this particular person to have a big change of heart re staying at home and keeping the horse for years
 
I would never jump up and down advising pts, or not, over the internet to someone I have never met and whose situation I have no real idea of. It's far too complex a decision in most cases. It may be black and white for some on Fora but not for me I'm afraid.
 
That's what I don't get. Why are people so ready to shout PTS, often even before the OP mentions it? They don't know the horse, and they don't know the person. We are talking about taking a life here. It may be the right thing to do, it maybe the wrong thing. The fact is that no one but the OP knows for sure. So I find all the calls to PTS just flippant. One thing I keep mentioning, but no one seems to consider, is that the person she is closest to (her OH) thinks she will regret it. She has said so herself. I guess if people have never known what it feels like to regret having an animal PTS it does not occur to them that it can actually affect some people very deeply and for a long time.

OP what you must remember is that you asked people what THEY would do, and so there are no right and wrong answers here. I hope that reading the experiences of people on both sides of the fence, it will help you in some way to decide what is right for you and your mare.
 
I think people are more saying that it is t wrong to PTS a horse under these circumstances rather than jumping up and saying do it. Obviously others disagree too.
 
undergroundoli said:
You missed among many other things people saying it would be better to turn the horse loose on the moors. Crazy.

What if she PTSd her mare, but started donating the cost of keeping an Egyptian horse to Prince Fluffy Karem every month? Would the stay at home till horse dies of natural causes brigade find that morally acceptable? Her horse would have been sent to rainbow bridge none the wiser after two years of well cared for retirement but OP could get on with her life and an Egyptian horse could have some of its suffering alleviated.

OP, I'm not suggesting you do this. You certainly don't need to justify your actions to a bunch of internet people and besides I think you would be doing your duty by your horse if you sent her to sleep.
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If op made decision to PTS, then personally I think that's fine and acceptable. I'm no stranger to the idiotic mentality of some people who think its acceptable and suitable to turn loose on the moors and have and always will flip my lid at such imbeciles, shocking suggestion.

My personal feelings are that to say one is bored with horses, has an oh who isn't horsey and wants to shirk any and all responsibility because of the above and wanting to move in with oh is pretty disgusting. In my opinion you take on a responsibility for a life, you do not then just decide that it doesn't suit you for the above reasons (not morally anyway). I completely agree, that my or anyone else's judgement on on ops reasonings do not matter, they are just points of view, but for what it's worth, unless the op is willing to respect that mare and go out and find a forever home at a sanctuary for this mare (which given the current equine situation nationally is unlikely) she should PTS, at home and treat this mare with love, respect and dignity.
 
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